LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 EVERY and I mean EVERY goddam game the puck is bouncing all over the place. Could TG steal a few more sugar packets and creamers, so that the piece of crap refrigeration system can be upgraded. :angry:
JohnRobertEichel Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 I have no idea, but FWIW check this out: Our record outside the division: 23-3-2 Our Northeast Division away record: 6-2-0 Both very impresssive, right? Now check out our Northeast Division home record: 2-5-1 And note that we have yet to host Boston, so that 2-5-1 is all coming against Canadian teams. So we can isolate the problem to home games where we play Canadian divisional rivals. Maybe the HSBC ice is bad just when eastern Canadians come to town? Ooooh, I'm getting a raging clue....and it's pointing in the general direction of the HSBC maintenance crew. I'd be on the lookout for a John Doe or a group of John Does who are from eastern Canada and who hate our country...especially Does who lean toward socialist political philosophies and/or are strongly anti-religion.
Eleven Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 HSBC's ice never has been good. Even in the '99 finals, the announcers occasionally remarked about the fact that ice in Texas was better than the ice here. I'm no hydrophysicist (is that even a word?), so I don't know the reasons why, but the ice at the Arena is less than ideal, and always has been.
BuffalOhio Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Well how much better would our fast-skating team be if they had great ice to play on? C'mon HSBC, get it done!
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Why can't ehy chill the joint another 10 degrees or so? Isn't it the way the Zamboni driver(s) "make" the ice very important also? Not eactly The Aud... But that had crappy ice too... When the HSBC Arena (Marine Midland) was built... Was it an all new system or did they part The Aud out? It had to be all new?? I hope! Now an older friend of my wife, Chicago native and ex-hockey player (not an NHL'er... But skated in some of the rinks) claims that Detroit and The Aud were the worst... At "The Barn" (Chicago Stadium), of course he is biased <_< , he claims was one of the best... Supposedly they would leave some of the doors open and make it real cold in there... I know yesterday at the UC... It seemed a bit colder...??? I bet building design and location (believe it or not, Chicago is COLDER than Buffalo in the winter... BFLO is tempered temperature wise as is Detroit because of the lake(s)...) plays a huge part along with various staff and crew...
Fronz1103 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 HSBC's ice never has been good. Even in the '99 finals, the announcers occasionally remarked about the fact that ice in Texas was better than the ice here. I'm no hydrophysicist (is that even a word?), so I don't know the reasons why, but the ice at the Arena is less than ideal, and always has been. Hey, Its been a while since i have posted (thanks to school and a whole lotta work) but this topic intrigued me because i have recently had the opportunity to skate on the HSBC arena ice. (Arena employee appreciation day) It was soo kool, a great experience. So, after experiencing 'the ice' IMHO i thought when first "zambonied" (new word)? the ice was incredibly smooth and unexpectedly fast..unfortunatly there were no pucks or sticks but it was still an awesome experience. Now my backround of ice skated on is unique in the fact that i ahve been to Amherst Pepsi center countless times for rented ice, and same with the Depew Ice Rink and my most other memorable place to have ever skated was at Lake Placid's Olypmic ice surface! Surprizingly HSBC ice isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be...no noticable rivits on the ice or unlevel dips or makings on the entire ice surface. I ask my self this question 'In the 1999 finals did the announcers who remarked about comparing HSBC ice to 'TEXAS" ice, did they have the opportunity to test the ice themself before making a conclusion on better ice? probably not, So we should consider that if any member of the media comments on how 'slow or fast the ice is' or 'the ice is chippy' we should conclude that they were just tryin to give an explanation for their own observations of their teams short comings or success... In all honesty, HSBC's ice was most enjoyable, if there is an ice surface in the NHL that is smoother and faster, man i would love to sample it... So closing this out, ice is ice and after so many times up and down the ice it becomes chippy and is just another element that can make the game interesting or frustrating either way it is what makes hockey, hockey. if you want a perfect surface to paly on you should turn to air hockey... no one i know has ever complained about chippy ice on that game.. haha, Good day (or night) to all!
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Hey, Its been a while since i have posted (thanks to school and a whole lotta work) but this topic intrigued me because i have recently had the opportunity to skate on the HSBC arena ice. (Arena employee appreciation day) It was soo kool, a great experience. So, after experiencing 'the ice' IMHO i thought when first "zambonied" (new word)? the ice was incredibly smooth and unexpectedly fast.. now my backround of ice skated on is limited to Amherst Pepsi center ice and Depew Ice Rink and the Lake Placid Olypmic ice before and surprizingly HSBC ice isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be... I ask my self this question 'In the 1999 finals did the announcers who remarked about comparing HSBC ice to 'TEXAS" ice, did they have the opportunity to test the ice themself before making a conclusion on better ice? probably not, So we should consider that if any member of the media comments on how 'slow or fast the ice is' or 'the ice is chippy' we should conclude that they were just tryin to give an explanation for their own observations of their teams short comings or success... So closing this out, ice is ice and after so many times up and down the ice it becomes chippy and is just another element that can make the game interesting or frustrating either way it is what makes hockey, hockey. if you want a perfect surface to paly on you should turn to air hockey... no one i know has ever complained about chippy ice on that game.. haha, Good day (or night) to all! No ice isn't just ice... True it gets rutted and chippy... From what I hear... The ice at the old Montreal Forum was the best? The crew has a lot to do with it... I don't think you can just hop on a Zamboni and expect to do a great job making new ice... Back in the day (Original Six) each rink had its OWN Zamboni... I got a cool t-shirt that shows all six and the different look to them... I imagine before the 1940's, Sonja Henie :D (threw her in because her tour "made" Frank Zamboni what he is...) and Frank Zamboni... Hand resurfacing was even more wildly inconsistent! True it is better in the modern era... I bet there is a difference in rinks though...
LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Posted January 12, 2007 It doesn't seem to be a case where the arena ice is worse at the end of a period or game. The puck seems to be bouncing around from start to finish. It is obviously more difficult to have a good ice surface when it is 75 outside(during the playoffs), but the southern teams deal with this all season not just in the playoffs. I'd really like to hear how the Sabres players compare HSBC ice with other arenas around the league.
Ogie Oglethorpe Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 The problem with most NHL arenas is a lack of a dehumidifier. I remember reading an article recently about it, but can't find it through googling. I'm not sure if HSBC Arena has a dehumidifier; it does have air conditioning which most arenas didn't for a long time. Hence the infamous Buffalo vs. Philly Fog game. Basically, the writer said that the NHL needs to step up and standardize the arena requirements. It would mandate that all arenas provide the same quality surface. It wasn't until most of the new arenas were built that the ice surfaces were even the same size. Remember how small the Aud surface was!
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 EVERY and I mean EVERY goddam game the puck is bouncing all over the place. Could TG steal a few more sugar packets and creamers, so that the piece of crap refrigeration system can be upgraded. :angry: during ECF last year canes players constantly bitched about ice in buffalo. Canes have been notorious for bad ice in april on to june but thats with 80 degrees outside. Its amazing how much the puch jumps around in HSBC maybe they can do something about it over the all star break
BRH Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 I'm glad it wasn't just me who noticed. With back to back games the problem was really obvious. It didn't seem like the puck bounced once in chicago, yet last night it was rattling all over from beginning to end. In baseball they grow the infield grass to different heights depending on how fast their team - or the opposing team - is. They water down the ground around first base when facing a team with a lot of base stealers. I see nothing wrong with that kind of home advantage and I wish the Sabres would utilize it by making hard, fast ice. You can bet that in the Cup playoffs slower teams will slow their ice down when facing us - no reason why we should give them an advantage on our ice too.
Bmwolf21 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 This seems to be a problem in a lot of places throughout the NHL; there have even been complaints about the ice in Edmonton, which for as long as I can remember has been the most favorably-reviewed surface in the league. (LINK) Now, players from Dallas complaining about your ice is like polar bears complaining about your weather, but they're not the first ones to suggest the surface at Rexall has been declining for years. It doesn't let Stefan off the hook - from two feet out you should be able to score on a gravel road with a curling broom, but even the Oilers will tell you that the once-legendary ice is nowhere near as good as it used to be. "Not even close,'' said Shawn Horcoff. "I hate saying that, but it's not very good at all. It's been like that for a few years now. There's a lot of better ice surfaces in the league, definitely." Seems to me that the "Ice Doctor" has to figure out what the problem is with these surfaces, and start pushing the league for changes to the buildings.
UnionAMG Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 I took a behind the scenes tour of HSBC Arena with the head Operations Manager there and learned a couple things about the place that were pretty interesting. There are actually two temperature sensors that hang from the rafters over the ice right around each blue line. A lot of people see them and think they are microphones, but they are actually used to measure the temperature of the ice at any given time so the cooling system can be adjusted. Also, before every game, they take a core sample of the ice in about 12 different spots of the rink. They basically drill a hole with a hallow drill bit, and pull out a column of the ice. These samples are measured for temp, density and a lot of other data. They are required to submit reports to the NHL for every game to reduce any hometown effects of good/bad ice. So i think that the "HSBC has awful" ice argument probably doesn't hold as much water (or ice ;)) as people might think. My guess is it is one of those things that people notice when it goes bad for their team but not when it happens in other arenas and hurts the other team. Similar to how fans for both teams always feel that the refs were against them (even though it sure seemed like they were against us last night!)
LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Posted January 12, 2007 So i think that the "HSBC has awful" ice argument probably doesn't hold as much water (or ice ;)) as people might think. My guess is it is one of those things that people notice when it goes bad for their team but not when it happens in other arenas and hurts the other team. Similar to how fans for both teams always feel that the refs were against them (even though it sure seemed like they were against us last night!) I don't know what the ice quality is supposed to be like and my original post has nothing to do with whether the Sabres win or lose. It's all about how much the puck is bouncing around. If somebody can explain why the puck is bouncing around if it isn't the ice, I'm all ears.
Assquatch Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Maybe the puck freezer needs adjustment?
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 I don't know what the ice quality is supposed to be like and my original post has nothing to do with whether the Sabres win or lose. It's all about how much the puck is bouncing around. If somebody can explain why the puck is bouncing around if it isn't the ice, I'm all ears. How 'bout special "loaded pucks" sent down from HQ in Toronto? :nana: Ya... I know it would hurt the Leafs ability to play with them ("loaded pucks") too... But, how much worse could the Leafs get?... The only way is up for them?... So, "loaded pucks" could ONLY HELP the Leafs... How is that for theories? Still all ears? :nana: :nana:
LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Posted January 12, 2007 They were just talking about this on WGR. Brad Riter said that the players have been talking about the poor ice conditions for at least 3 weeks now.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 They were just talking about this on WGR. Brad Riter said that the players have been talking about the poor ice conditions for at least 3 weeks now. When was the circus in BFLO or something similar... Maybe they did'nt get the new ice right? Or do they just cover it (the ice) for other longer run events? I thought the long term events and subsequent long term Sabre road trips... They would dismantle it for that spell????
LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Posted January 12, 2007 When was the circus in BFLO or something similar... Maybe they did'nt get the new ice right? Or do they just cover it (the ice) for other longer run events? Disney on Ice is here during the all-star break, but I don't believe their has been anything in recent weeks.
topshelfcookies Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 You could tell last night on Channel 2's Sports Zone last night that the arena crew was beginning to lay down the felt pads over the ice that they lay down before they put down plywood, and then begin to build a new surface (the Bandits open their season tonight-Friday- at the arena). It will be interesting to see if the ice is "worse" Saturday night vs Tampa Bay. If anyone is interested in the process of how NHL ice is made, check out this page... http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ice-rink.htm I believe there is also an article regarding Zamboni's as well.
Eleven Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 Hey, Its been a while since i have posted (thanks to school and a whole lotta work) but this topic intrigued me because i have recently had the opportunity to skate on the HSBC arena ice. (Arena employee appreciation day) It was soo kool, a great experience. So, after experiencing 'the ice' IMHO i thought when first "zambonied" (new word)? the ice was incredibly smooth and unexpectedly fast..unfortunatly there were no pucks or sticks but it was still an awesome experience. Now my backround of ice skated on is unique in the fact that i ahve been to Amherst Pepsi center countless times for rented ice, and same with the Depew Ice Rink and my most other memorable place to have ever skated was at Lake Placid's Olypmic ice surface! Surprizingly HSBC ice isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be...no noticable rivits on the ice or unlevel dips or makings on the entire ice surface. I ask my self this question 'In the 1999 finals did the announcers who remarked about comparing HSBC ice to 'TEXAS" ice, did they have the opportunity to test the ice themself before making a conclusion on better ice? probably not, So we should consider that if any member of the media comments on how 'slow or fast the ice is' or 'the ice is chippy' we should conclude that they were just tryin to give an explanation for their own observations of their teams short comings or success... In all honesty, HSBC's ice was most enjoyable, if there is an ice surface in the NHL that is smoother and faster, man i would love to sample it... So closing this out, ice is ice and after so many times up and down the ice it becomes chippy and is just another element that can make the game interesting or frustrating either way it is what makes hockey, hockey. if you want a perfect surface to paly on you should turn to air hockey... no one i know has ever complained about chippy ice on that game.. haha, Good day (or night) to all! Man, Benjy Compson has nothing on you. Anyway, the remarks from '99 that I remember are just memory; there really isn't much else to go on there. I agree that the announcers themselves probably did not skate in the two arenas.
Fronz1103 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 Man, Benjy Compson has nothing on you. Anyway, the remarks from '99 that I remember are just memory; there really isn't much else to go on there. I agree that the announcers themselves probably did not skate in the two arenas. Man, i wish i knew who Benjy Compson is...should i know??! <_< But i dunno i just thought i would give a background of differnet places that i have been able to skate on! Plus, a possible reason for 'chippy, slow, or average ice in the NHL, or HSBC Arena could be the fact that before just about each game at HSBC they have either young kids from around the area going against other young teams from the area, or the Buffalo Lightning play on the ice therefore possibly effectign the quality of the ice. Granite this is at about 4PM til about 5 30PM on the day of a Sabres game..so the ice is ready for the pre-game skate by 6PM or an hour or so before the game. Take that for what it is..a bit of inside information that could give you part of a reason as to why the ice isn't as quality as what it should be?
BuffalOhio Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 These are NHL players that are skating on the ice. NHL players skate way better than kids do. NHL players DESTROY ice with the ruts they leave when they turn. I've skated on Joe Lewis arena ice at 4PM before a game (reffing). That was the smoothest ice I've ever been on. Smooth as glass. I've skated at the Verizon center before a game, too. That ice is hard, but it's still good ice. Remember that NHL players absolutely DESTROY ice when they skate on it because the skate so strongly as compared to the rest of us. I almost think the NHL should go to 4 15 minute quarters so they can keep the ice in better shape. Almost, I said.
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 These are NHL players that are skating on the ice. NHL players skate way better than kids do. NHL players DESTROY ice with the ruts they leave when they turn. I've skated on Joe Lewis arena ice at 4PM before a game (reffing). That was the smoothest ice I've ever been on. Smooth as glass. I've skated at the Verizon center before a game, too. That ice is hard, but it's still good ice. Remember that NHL players absolutely DESTROY ice when they skate on it because the skate so strongly as compared to the rest of us. I almost think the NHL should go to 4 15 minute quarters so they can keep the ice in better shape. Almost, I said. Wouldn't it almost be like skiing?... Expert skiiers will carve a hill and subsequent moguls way better than beginners... I can always tell by the shape and placement of the moguls on the slope which type of skiers predominantly ski it. What am I getting at is that even now the NHL player is harder on the ice with more of the carving going on... Wouldn't the beginner tend to destroy the ice worse with more erractic carving? Or is it the opposite?... The game of hockey and skating is very random and erractic to begin with... I take more so at the junior and lesser levels... Thus my argument... BTW... Believe it or not... I can get more out of my Mission Amp 3's... The one's that are a bit narrow for my foot by skating with thin or no socks!... If I go no socks... I have to put a tab of "moleskin" on my inside feet ant the ankle bone... To alleviate chaff... I find with out pain in my left foot (slightly bigger than my right)... I can carve! I have progressed ten fold in just 5 hours or so on the ice... Even hockey stop (fairly good) to BOTH sides! I just want to start cruising backwards with a crossover... Your help was great! I guess it is true about your boot fit being the "transmission"...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 13, 2007 Report Posted January 13, 2007 This was my point about the circus and a changing ice surface... MacMillan says the ice is only broken up and hauled out "for the circus, because they make points in the floor to hold the trapeze and other things, or for a truck pull." Now I know the Circus was in BFLO already... Right? So the ice at the HSBC Arena isn't the same to start the season... And the second making of it was probably more "rushed" than to open the season... Just a theory though? I know it takes a lot of time to make the original slap... With many many thin layers... The Ice Making an ice rink isn't as simple as flooding the floor with gallons of water. The crew must apply the water carefully and slowly, in order to insure ideal thickness. An ice surface that is too thick requires more energy to keep frozen and is prone to getting soft on the top. A surface that is too thin is also dangerous because skaters risk cutting straight through the ice. Temperature: Good Ice vs. Bad Ice Green Ice? Brand new ice is called "green ice" because it hasn't been broken in yet. When creating a new ice surface, indoor conditions are very important. MacMillan says he likes to "keep the skating surface at 24 to 26 F (about -4 C), the building temperature at about 63 F (17 C), and the indoor humidity at about 30 percent. But if it's warm outdoors and we have an event where the doors are open and all that warm air comes in, then we have to adjust it. Even one degree can make a big difference in the quality of the ice." An indoor high humidity can create a fog over the ice. The Raleigh arena has more than 770,000 square feet, and requires 12 dehumidifiers throughout the building to keep the air dry indoors. The outdoor temperature can also affect the ice conditions. The arena and ice temperatures must change to compensate for the heat and humidity that will come in when the arena doors are opened to fans and spectators. Many NHL players have expressed concerns about ice conditions in very warm-weather cities during the Stanley Cup playoffs. They fear the outdoor temperature may be hot enough to soften the ice inside the building. In Canada, the problem is just the opposite. The buildings often have to be heated because the extremely low temperatures outside can cause problems with the ice. Ice conditions can vary greatly with a temperature change as small as one degree. The type of water also can change conditions. For example, ice made with water that contains dissolved alkaline salts may have a sticky feel to it and will dull skate blades. To counteract these problems, many rinks -- including the Raleigh arena -- use water purifiers or add chemical conditioners to tap water. Figure skaters and hockey skaters have different ideas of what good ice and bad ice are. Figure skaters prefer an ice temperature of 26 to 28 F. Ice in that temperature range is softer, so it grips the skate edges better. It is also less likely to shatter under the impact of jumps. Hockey players, though, prefer colder, harder ice. With many skaters on the ice simultaneously, it's easy for the ice surface to get chewed up at the temperatures preferred by figure skaters. For hockey games, the top of the ice is usually kept at 24 to 26 F. Ice that's too warm might cause players to lose their edge during a crucial play, but ice that's too cold may chip too readily.
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