Miller

[hopeleslyobvious]

I am glad to see for the most part everyone here hasn't hit the panic button, like they have on a certain other Sabres board (http://www.sabres.com/forums/)

 

Just a few things to keep in mind in case you think Marty should be starting now.

 

1. Miller was player of the month in October.

 

2. Yes, he has given up 4 goals in each of his last 3 starts...but would have Biron have done any better? Especially in the last 2? Even more so last night? Looking at the last couple of games more closely, Miller was strong in the first of both while the team was sleepwalking. Eventually he just got overwhelmed with no support in front of him.

 

3. It's an 82 game season. Every player is bound to have ups and downs. IMHO it's important for your number 1 goalie to know that the coach is willing to stick with him. Lindy stuck with Ryan during his slump last year, and I think it worked out pretty well.

 

4. Marty Biron is Marty Biron, not Marty Brodeur. I think a lot of Sabres fans forget that fact. Is Marty a good goalie? Yes. Is he one of the top in the league? No. He's just not. Even with Miller's struggles as of late his GAA and SV% are better than Marty's from last year. Also, just look at the style the team plays...wide open, not afraid to give up some odd man rushes or breakaways. There's not really a stat for this but Marty is not stellar on breakaways.

 

And of course the two selfish reasons:

 

5. I just got a Miller jersey.

 

6. Do you know how hard it is to manage a fantasy team when your goalie is on a team that uses a 2 goalie system? Especially with a coach like Lindy who doesn't like to announce the starter in advance. :lol:

 

The short version is, that Miller had a bad stretch last year, and could have hit the panic button and gone to Marty. But IMHO the team would not have gone as far as it did in the playoffs with Marty in net.

[Draconator]

I am glad to see for the most part everyone here hasn't hit the panic button, like they have on a certain other Sabres board (http://www.sabres.com/forums/)

 

Just a few things to keep in mind in case you think Marty should be starting now.

 

1. Miller was player of the month in October.

 

2. Yes, he has given up 4 goals in each of his last 3 starts...but would have Biron have done any better? Especially in the last 2? Even more so last night? Looking at the last couple of games more closely, Miller was strong in the first of both while the team was sleepwalking. Eventually he just got overwhelmed with no support in front of him.

 

3. It's an 82 game season. Every player is bound to have ups and downs. IMHO it's important for your number 1 goalie to know that the coach is willing to stick with him. Lindy stuck with Ryan during his slump last year, and I think it worked out pretty well.

 

4. Marty Biron is Marty Biron, not Marty Brodeur. I think a lot of Sabres fans forget that fact. Is Marty a good goalie? Yes. Is he one of the top in the league? No. He's just not. Even with Miller's struggles as of late his GAA and SV% are better than Marty's from last year. Also, just look at the style the team plays...wide open, not afraid to give up some odd man rushes or breakaways. There's not really a stat for this but Marty is not stellar on breakaways.

 

And of course the two selfish reasons:

 

5. I just got a Miller jersey.

 

6. Do you know how hard it is to manage a fantasy team when your goalie is on a team that uses a 2 goalie system? Especially with a coach like Lindy who doesn't like to announce the starter in advance. :lol:

 

The short version is, that Miller had a bad stretch last year, and could have hit the panic button and gone to Marty. But IMHO the team would not have gone as far as it did in the playoffs with Marty in net.

 

I think it's time for Marty to start one or two games, just to get a different "flavor" in there, and to give Ryan somewhat of a mental rest. I think for goalies from time-to-time, it's very important to have them watch a game, rather than to start every game. Gives them a different perspective.

[scottnc]

Ahhh... a voice of reason. We're 11-1-1 and people are calling for Millers head? I think people need to just settle down and realize we're not going to win every game.

[Claude Balls]

I think it's time for Marty to start one or two games, just to get a different "flavor" in there, and to give Ryan somewhat of a mental rest. I think for goalies from time-to-time, it's very important to have them watch a game, rather than to start every game. Gives them a different perspective.

Two words.....Martin Brodeur. The ironman of goaltenders. He was at his best when he played night after night. The more he played, the better he was.

[hopeleslyobvious]

I think it's time for Marty to start one or two games, just to get a different "flavor" in there, and to give Ryan somewhat of a mental rest. I think for goalies from time-to-time, it's very important to have them watch a game, rather than to start every game. Gives them a different perspective.

 

This is kind of what I was getting at. Goaltending has been the least of our problems the last 2 games. Marty is getting the start today, that was determined before last night's game. The next game after that is Friday. I think a week of rest is enough for Ryan to be at 100%. Let Marty take the Flyers in the back to back (I always think the back up should get a start in back to backs), and then let Miller go against the Canes.

 

All a goaltending controversey does is have both goalies looking over their shoulders and not playing to their full potential. There is enough pressure on a goalie as it is, he shouldn't have to worry about having to start the next game.

 

To respond to another post...speaking of Brodeur, he had a string of bad games this year, and is not putting up as good of numbers as Miller. I don't really hear any Devils fans calling for Scott Clemenson.

[Stoner]

Shame on you, hopeles. Nice move... knocking away (with ease) the suggestion that Marty should be the starter. You really went out on a limb there. Can anyone say strawman?

 

No serious Sabre fan is suggesting that Miller should be the backup. Many, however, are pointing out that Ryan has not been his sharpest in recent games, especially last night. I get very tired of people covering up for a goaltender when four or five get behind him in a game. That should always raise alarm bells, not matter how poorly the team is playing in front of him.

 

Just to take this to a logical extreme. Would you have a problem with the last three games being extrapolated over an entire season? .8 something save percentage and a 4.0 GAA? Of course you would. Well, maybe you wouldn't, since you are so happy with his play.

 

By the way, he was player of the month in November because of an 8-0 record. Certainly not for his numbers, which around well down the pack.

 

Before anybody jumps down my throat, I love the guy and I think he's been great for the most part this season. Numbers don't tell the story -- he makes a ton of saves at critical times.

[hopeleslyobvious]

Shame on you, hopeles. Nice move... knocking away (with ease) the suggestion that Marty should be the starter. You really went out on a limb there. Can anyone say strawman?

 

No serious Sabre fan is suggesting that Miller should be the backup. Many, however, are pointing out that Ryan has not been his sharpest in recent games, especially last night. I get very tired of people covering up for a goaltender when four or five get behind him in a game. That should always raise alarm bells, not matter how poorly the team is playing in front of him.

 

Just to take this to a logical extreme. Would you have a problem with the last three games being extrapolated over an entire season? .8 something save percentage and a 4.0 GAA? Of course you would. Well, maybe you wouldn't, since you are so happy with his play.

 

By the way, he was player of the month in November because of an 8-0 record. Certainly not for his numbers, which around well down the pack.

 

Before anybody jumps down my throat, I love the guy and I think he's been great for the most part this season. Numbers don't tell the story -- he makes a ton of saves at critical times.

 

PA, I think you raise some valid points...It's not completely a straw man. Take a look at the link I provided above, and read some of the posts, especially going back over the summer. Stay away from any walls when reading, because you will want to :wallbash:

 

Looking at last night's game...I do not like the fact that he gave up 4...but I can only remember 1 that I think he really would have liked to have had back.

 

You're right, I would have a problem with Miller putting up a .800 SV% and a 4.00 GAA over the course of the entire season...but that's why it's a Goals against average. There are going to be stretches over the course of the season where he lets in 4 a night, and there are going to be stretches where it seems like nothing will get by him.

 

His stats were a little better than middle of the pack. He was right around in the top 10 in SV% and GAA in October. I shudder at the thought of saying this, but Bill Clement hit the nail right on the head when he was on In The Slot with Espo last week. The gist of it was that Miller's stats are not going to show how good of a goalie he actually is, because of the fact that the team in front of him plays such a wide open style of hockey. If he was on a more defensive minded team, his numbers would be much better.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Ahhh... a voice of reason. We're 11-1-1 and people are calling for Millers head? I think people need to just settle down and realize we're not going to win every game.

 

Get this guy a............... :beer:

[apuszczalowski]

Ah, so you've been to the Sabres.com message board and met their pride and joy Mrbowler, or as the way many have assumed his actual identity Mrs. Biron. No matter what Miller does, Biron is always better and is the actual starter, Miller is only starting the games because the Sabres want to trade him to make Biron the starter. The guy actually routs against the Sabres when Miller is in net.

 

As for Biron, he is a great backup. But that is what he is, the Backup. Not starter 1b, the Backup, #2. People there are going on about how Biron should start last night because its "His turn" and he should play every x amount of games. It doesn't work like that Biron is the backup, he starts when Ryan is hurt or when Ryan needs a break (like today when they are scheduled for back to back games) The Sabres have their #1 in Miller and he should get every start if he is healthy to go, with the occasional rest for back to back games (although I think with the breaks Buffalo has had recently, he should still be playing today.

[scottnc]

As for Biron, he is a great backup. But that is what he is, the Backup. Not starter 1b, the Backup, #2.

 

Exactly. It's not like Marty didn't get his shot to be #1. He was handed the job when Dom left town, and at times he played very well. The simple fact is that Miller is a better goalie. That doesn't mean Marty isn't good, he's just not as good as Miller. That being said I'm glad we have a backup of his caliber. A lot of teams would have to have as much confidence as we do in our backup netminder.

[hopeleslyobvious]

Ah, so you've been to the Sabres.com message board and met their pride and joy Mrbowler, or as the way many have assumed his actual identity Mrs. Biron. No matter what Miller does, Biron is always better and is the actual starter, Miller is only starting the games because the Sabres want to trade him to make Biron the starter. The guy actually routs against the Sabres when Miller is in net.

 

As for Biron, he is a great backup. But that is what he is, the Backup. Not starter 1b, the Backup, #2. People there are going on about how Biron should start last night because its "His turn" and he should play every x amount of games. It doesn't work like that Biron is the backup, he starts when Ryan is hurt or when Ryan needs a break (like today when they are scheduled for back to back games) The Sabres have their #1 in Miller and he should get every start if he is healthy to go, with the occasional rest for back to back games (although I think with the breaks Buffalo has had recently, he should still be playing today.

 

Ah yes, I have been there many times. That's all I really need to say, because I think you had a good post and said everything that needs to be said.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Ah, so you've been to the Sabres.com message board and met their pride and joy Mrbowler, or as the way many have assumed his actual identity Mrs. Biron. No matter what Miller does, Biron is always better and is the actual starter, Miller is only starting the games because the Sabres want to trade him to make Biron the starter. The guy actually routs against the Sabres when Miller is in net.

 

As for Biron, he is a great backup. But that is what he is, the Backup. Not starter 1b, the Backup, #2. People there are going on about how Biron should start last night because its "His turn" and he should play every x amount of games. It doesn't work like that Biron is the backup, he starts when Ryan is hurt or when Ryan needs a break (like today when they are scheduled for back to back games) The Sabres have their #1 in Miller and he should get every start if he is healthy to go, with the occasional rest for back to back games (although I think with the breaks Buffalo has had recently, he should still be playing today.

 

well said.......... :D

[Taro T]

Ah, so you've been to the Sabres.com message board and met their pride and joy Mrbowler, or as the way many have assumed his actual identity Mrs. Biron. No matter what Miller does, Biron is always better and is the actual starter, Miller is only starting the games because the Sabres want to trade him to make Biron the starter. The guy actually routs against the Sabres when Miller is in net.

 

As for Biron, he is a great backup. But that is what he is, the Backup. Not starter 1b, the Backup, #2. People there are going on about how Biron should start last night because its "His turn" and he should play every x amount of games. It doesn't work like that Biron is the backup, he starts when Ryan is hurt or when Ryan needs a break (like today when they are scheduled for back to back games) The Sabres have their #1 in Miller and he should get every start if he is healthy to go, with the occasional rest for back to back games (although I think with the breaks Buffalo has had recently, he should still be playing today.

Apus, you nailed it.

[inkman]

Apus, you nailed it.

 

Hehe...you said "a puss". :nana:

[BuffalOhio]

Hehe...you said "a puss". :nana:

 

Mmmmmmm.....puss.......

[Claude Balls]

Question. Why is it that goaltenders always need the rest? They aren't the ones out there skating up and down the rink, getting blasted into the boards all night. Jeesh, what a bunch of pansies they are. :D

[wjag]

Question. Why is it that goaltenders always need the rest? They aren't the ones out there skating up and down the rink, getting blasted into the boards all night. Jeesh, what a bunch of pansies they are. :D

Maybe not my words, but certainly my sentiment. I actually advocated switching Biron and Miller in these last two games for percentage reasons. Miller so far this year is a better road goalie. But other than that, I don't think he needs a break on back-to-back nights when they are playing three games a week and then taking five nights off.

 

I suspect the only reason to play Biron at this point is to keep him mentally ready. At the rate the Sabres are going down, we may need him as the number 1 before long. Miller did go down for a part of the season last year and Biron was a solid fill in.

 

Answering the question posed though, I suspect (having never played goalie), that flopping down on your knees as much as they do and then jumping back up can be pretty tiring in its own right. Just cause I'm bored, let's say that an average number of shots on goal for a period is 12. That means the goalie has taken to some level of exertion 12 times to stop the shot (it may be as simple as lifting a glove or as difficult as sprawling on the ice with hands and feet flailing. Let's say he has six more attempts that he must make a "goalie move". Things that look like they are coming his way but get re-directed. Then there are the number of times they drop to their knees to prevent a behind the net sweep-in play often moving side-to-side. And still they are on their knees a lot when the play is in their own zone for any amount of extended time even if it doesn't result on a shot toward the goal. Multiply these numbers by three and cram them into a couple of hours and I could see where the knees could be very sore. And this doesn't include the same day pregame warm up and the optional skates on off days or practice. So while it doesn't seem like they are doing much, they are. Does this mean you can't play in back-to-back nights? I still think they can and should.

[That Aud Smell]

 

Before anybody jumps down my throat, I love the guy and I think he's been great for the most part this season. Numbers don't tell the story -- he makes a ton of saves at critical times.

 

I won't jump down anyone's throat -- but what I think gets lost in this analysis is the following: A guy like Brodeur piled up some numbers and %'s as part of the most achingly dull hockey system ever created. Not taking anything away from the guy - but those are the facts. Miller's playing on a team that is built on taking risks, hopefully well-calculated risks. Under the Sabres' system and style, I don't think you'll see gaudy numbers for Miller over the long haul -- but, as PA acknowledges -- he has demonstrated his ability to play clutch.

 

And before people start jumping down my throat about HoF goalies who piled up the stats on risk-taking teams, I'll just say that Miller may not be on par with some of those guys (e.g., P. Roy).

 

One final thought -- my buddies and I have remarked to one another how this team, at times and in certain ways, reminds us of the Oilers in the 80s (I said "reminds" us -- we don't have the horses that that team did). Anyway, I took a look at Fuhr's stats from the Oilers during that time -- GAA hovering around 3.6 and a save % in the .87 range. And I don't imagine that Billy Smith's numbers were that much different in the late 70s and early 80s either. Of course, you get into with a guy like Roy from '86 until '93, and you're talking the GAA of 2 or less and Sv% of .92+ -- but that's perhaps the greatest goalie of all time (and the era of the clutch and grab). All I want is for Miller to be our Fuhr, not our Roy.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Maybe not my words, but certainly my sentiment. I actually advocated switching Biron and Miller in these last two games for percentage reasons. Miller so far this year is a better road goalie. But other than that, I don't think he needs a break on back-to-back nights when they are playing three games a week and then taking five nights off.

I suspect the only reason to play Biron at this point is to keep him mentally ready. At the rate the Sabres are going down, we may need him as the number 1 before long. Miller did go down for a part of the season last year and Biron was a solid fill in.

Answering the question posed though, I suspect (having never played goalie), that flopping down on your knees as much as they do and then jumping back up can be pretty tiring in its own right. Just cause I'm bored, let's say that an average number of shots on goal for a period is 12. That means the goalie has taken to some level of exertion 12 times to stop the shot (it may be as simple as lifting a glove or as difficult as sprawling on the ice with hands and feet flailing. Let's say he has six more attempts that he must make a "goalie move". Things that look like they are coming his way but get re-directed. Then there are the number of times they drop to their knees to prevent a behind the net sweep-in play often moving side-to-side. And still they are on their knees a lot when the play is in their own zone for any amount of extended time even if it doesn't result on a shot toward the goal. Multiply these numbers by three and cram them into a couple of hours and I could see where the knees could be very sore. And this doesn't include the same day pregame warm up and the optional skates on off days or practice. So while it doesn't seem like they are doing much, they are. Does this mean you can't play in back-to-back nights? I still think they can and should.

 

 

 

It's more a combination of both ... it is physically tiring to play the position, for all the reasons stated here ... it's a lot of up and down, even when shots do not get through or go wide ... mentally it is draining also ... people scoff at this, but the level of concentration required is huge at that level. But of course, they are professionals, playing games 2 days in a row is not a huge deal. But like wjag said, they need to keep the backup ready ... so if you have to play the guy occasionally anyway, why not do it when you are playing back-to-back nights and make sure your starter avoids that wear and tear? Especially in early November of an 82-game season. If we are talking big games in March or April, it might be a different story.

 

 

 

I won't jump down anyone's throat -- but what I think gets lost in this analysis is the following: A guy like Brodeur piled up some numbers and %'s as part of the most achingly dull hockey system ever created. Not taking anything away from the guy - but those are the facts. Miller's playing on a team that is built on taking risks, hopefully well-calculated risks. Under the Sabres' system and style, I don't think you'll see gaudy numbers for Miller over the long haul -- but, as PA acknowledges -- he has demonstrated his ability to play clutch.

And before people start jumping down my throat about HoF goalies who piled up the stats on risk-taking teams, I'll just say that Miller may not be on par with some of those guys (e.g., P. Roy).

One final thought -- my buddies and I have remarked to one another how this team, at times and in certain ways, reminds us of the Oilers in the 80s (I said "reminds" us -- we don't have the horses that that team did). Anyway, I took a look at Fuhr's stats from the Oilers during that time -- GAA hovering around 3.6 and a save % in the .87 range. And I don't imagine that Billy Smith's numbers were that much different in the late 70s and early 80s either. Of course, you get into with a guy like Roy from '86 until '93, and you're talking the GAA of 2 or less and Sv% of .92+ -- but that's perhaps the greatest goalie of all time (and the era of the clutch and grab). All I want is for Miller to be our Fuhr, not our Roy.

 

All good points, and if you look at it, Roy never had a SV Pct above .918 with Montreal and his GAA was below 2.50 just twice. It's all about winning. If miller keeps going 9-1-1 every 11 starts, that's all I care about.

[apuszczalowski]

Goalies are standing on the ice playing for all 60 minutes. Other players come out and skate for a couple minutes and then go back to sitting on the bench.

 

The goalie position can be both physically and emotionally draining. I do agree though that Miller could probably go on back to back games right now but Ruff probably wants to give him the rest just to keep him sharp and fresh, and to keep Marty ready if something does happen to Miller

[hopeleslyobvious]

Maybe not my words, but certainly my sentiment. I actually advocated switching Biron and Miller in these last two games for percentage reasons. Miller so far this year is a better road goalie. But other than that, I don't think he needs a break on back-to-back nights when they are playing three games a week and then taking five nights off.

 

I suspect the only reason to play Biron at this point is to keep him mentally ready. At the rate the Sabres are going down, we may need him as the number 1 before long. Miller did go down for a part of the season last year and Biron was a solid fill in.

 

Answering the question posed though, I suspect (having never played goalie), that flopping down on your knees as much as they do and then jumping back up can be pretty tiring in its own right. Just cause I'm bored, let's say that an average number of shots on goal for a period is 12. That means the goalie has taken to some level of exertion 12 times to stop the shot (it may be as simple as lifting a glove or as difficult as sprawling on the ice with hands and feet flailing. Let's say he has six more attempts that he must make a "goalie move". Things that look like they are coming his way but get re-directed. Then there are the number of times they drop to their knees to prevent a behind the net sweep-in play often moving side-to-side. And still they are on their knees a lot when the play is in their own zone for any amount of extended time even if it doesn't result on a shot toward the goal. Multiply these numbers by three and cram them into a couple of hours and I could see where the knees could be very sore. And this doesn't include the same day pregame warm up and the optional skates on off days or practice. So while it doesn't seem like they are doing much, they are. Does this mean you can't play in back-to-back nights? I still think they can and should.

 

 

Can you honestly say that last year's injury is likely to repeat itself? That was kind of a fluke.

[wjag]

Can you honestly say that last year's injury is likely to repeat itself? That was kind of a fluke.

No, could be a groin or something else. Injuries happen... Goal tenders get run into on occasion. Hit him just right when he is defenseless and... It could happen at home... Never know, chance favors the prepared.. Who'd thunk Rothleisberger would have ended up on the windshield of a car? Or that he would get appendicitis.. Umm bad example. Rothleisberger is a reaffirmation of the Darwin theory.

 

Being two deep at goalie is one of the strengths of this team.

[hopeleslyobvious]

Being two deep at goalie is one of the strengths of this team.

 

I don't disagree with that, just last year's injury might not be the best example of how he could get hurt.

[Derrico]

good point