What is my problem?

[Tarrytown]

Isn't it typical to love a player when he's on your team and hate him when he isn't? The fact is that I cannot stand Dom b/c of the Detroit trade the drunk driving etc. I hate that he won a Cup. I hate the crap he pulled with retiring etc. But he still gives back to this community with his charity - he's simply a fussy primadonna like many gifted atheletes.

 

That being said looking back on his tirades much of it was directed at ownership - the crooks that they were (as the court document indicate). He wanted them to add better players b/c he wanted to win. Isn't that we the fans want?

 

(I still do want the Sabres to beat the crap out of him every time we play his team - remember the thrashing his first game back to Buffalo with Detroit?)

 

This love/hate relationship with players is why we are fans - isn't it? We love to hate the other team...rivalries..without that you just have a bunch of guys playing a game. The fun is in having someone to root against - that's what makes winning so much fun.

[Stoner]

As to your point on the "Nolan Affair", do you realize that it reads like you said that it is immaterial whether Dom had responsibility for Nolan leaving, that fans "blame him" is enough for it to be so?  I hope I am reading it wrong, because I thought about that a little bit, and I must say while that attitude doesn't really mean much when we are dealing with hockey games, that is an incredibly destructive attitude to take in almost any other endeavor.  Reality doesn't matter, all that counts is perception.  That is probably a big part of the reason that I cannot understand the animosity toward Dom, reality has nothing to do with it apparently.

You're completely distorting what I said. The fans believing it is so does not make it so -- but perception is reality. The fans believe it and no one will ever change their minds. The original issue is whether Dom's number should be retired. Of course it should be. But Hasek is so unpopular, for legitimate and not so legitimate reasons, that it probably won't happen. Again, I doubt he would ever agree to it anyway, so it's a moot point. Maybe if he were to sincerely apologize to the fans, things would be different.

 

dave, you have a great memory, but apparently a selective one. Joey Juneau in Game 4 scored from outside the blue line, prompting Hasek to wear his "Swiss Cheese" sign the next day.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nh...05/31/hasek_31/

 

You say you don't understand the animosity. Think about it in more personal terms. You can love someone for years, something happens, something is said, and things are never the same. People take sports very personally. While oftentimes in life, things that are said in anger are forgiven, Hasek IMHO committed the unforgivable sin and he committed it against the wrong fans -- Buffalo sports fans. It will not be forgiven!

[Stoner]

P.S. Didn't Hasek say he didn't want Nolan to return as coach? Then as I recall he stood by those comments before the next season. Is this not getting a coach "fired"? What choice was the organization supposed to make?

[Stoner]

That being said looking back on his tirades much of it was directed at ownership - the crooks that they were (as the court document indicate). He wanted them to add better players b/c he wanted to win. Isn't that we the fans want?

What are you saying? You wanted the crooks to be even bigger crooks and spend even more money that wasn't theirs on the team? :)

 

Just like dave doesn't understand the animosity of the fans against Dom, I don't understand why John Rigas is so hated. To use my own words against me, if perception is reality, what is the perception here -- that Rigas stole from the Sabres? I liken Rigas to Robin Hood. He may have stolen from the rich to give the poor, but his heart was in the right place. :) He wanted very much for the Sabres to win, and he committed the resources to try and do it. He ponied up big time when the franchise desperately needed outside investment, then he forked over a record contract to Hasek. Through the playoff runs of the late 90s, the Sabres' payroll was nothing to sneeze at and I seem to recall it was in the top 10 a couple of times. Things did change after the finals, when the owner's vow to provide those pesky "tools" never materialized, culminating with the Peca Fiasco. In hindsight, it's clear the house of cards was falling apart and the mandate was given to Regier to hold the line on salaries. But I don't think that, or the subsequent woes of the team, should taint how committed Rigas was to winning. Too bad an owner with legitimate wealth doesn't feel the same way!

[Taro T]

You're completely distorting what I said. The fans believing it is so does not make it so -- but perception is reality. The fans believe it and no one will ever change their minds. The original issue is whether Dom's number should be retired. Of course it should be. But Hasek is so unpopular, for legitimate and not so legitimate reasons, that it probably won't happen. Again, I doubt he would ever agree to it anyway, so it's a moot point. Maybe if he were to sincerely apologize to the fans, things would be different.

 

dave, you have a great memory, but apparently a selective one. Joey Juneau in Game 4 scored from outside the blue line, prompting Hasek to wear his "Swiss Cheese" sign the next day.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nh...05/31/hasek_31/

 

You say you don't understand the animosity. Think about it in more personal terms. You can love someone for years, something happens, something is said, and things are never the same. People take sports very personally. While oftentimes in life, things that are said in anger are forgiven, Hasek IMHO committed the unforgivable sin and he committed it against the wrong fans -- Buffalo sports fans. It will not be forgiven!

PA, thank you for the SI link. You are right, I TOTALLY forgot about the "swiss cheese" episode and also forgot ENTIRELY about the Kramer deal. Memories of that actually got me chuckling.

 

Regarding Nolan, the quote from Hasek was "it would be better for me if he didn't come back". There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Hasek and Ted did not get along to put it mildly. Dom, though, was far from the only person that Ted couldn't get along with. I think the 2 of them could have functioned in their roles on the same team in '97-'98, but too much baggage had been built up w/ Ted and the rest of the front office that the team decided to move in a different direction. I felt so sincerely about the fact that I believed Dom & Ted could (and should) live together that I told the Sabres I was cancelling my season tickets over their handling of Ted. Larry talked me out of getting rid of the tickets. I saw a lot of the Nolan issues as a conflict between him and Muckler (which had begun that final season in the Aud, long before any "feud" between Dom and Ted appeared). I did not believe Ted and John could live together and accepted the decision to get rid of John (although I would have kept John and gotten rid of Ted). I did not support the decision to get rid of both of them. All that said, yes Dom was part of the reason Ted was gone, but there was a LOT more to Ted's departure than just Dom.

 

As for the views of fans towards the Rigases, let me take a stab at why people feel the way they do. (I'm sure others on this board will have a different take, but following is mine.) Warning to inkman - this will probably be long and likely disjoined; apologies to all if it isn't terribly readable.

 

Readers Digest Version (for inkman and others that don't like long posts): People had a lot of animosity toward the 2 criminal sons and a lot of that got transferred to John because he was the face of Adelphia (and the Sabres ownership). The sons gave a lot of hope to not just Sabres fans, but citizens of WNY, and got people believing that Adelphia would be the white knight to rescue the region from it's economic doldrums. That they were conducting criminal activities behind the scenes while promoting a savior image really rubbed people the wrong way. That their criminal activities helped make Buffalo a bit of a laughing stock and ended up actually hurting the economy and nearly causing the Sabres to leave town as Adelphia became a shell of itself increased the animosity.

 

Slightly Longer Version: People were VERY happy with John Rigas when he finally took over the reins of the team, he signed Hasek to a long term deal, told people he'd bring in the "tools" that were necessary to win the SC, and also got rid of Larry Quinn, who had not been popular with the fans for getting rid of both Nolan and Muckler. Some people turned on John due to the "tools" comment, but I always felt that they weren't being realistic. The comment was made in the "euphoria" of finally having control of the team and I always added the caveot "within reason" to the claim that they would do "everything" to bring a winner to Buffalo.

 

I put a lot of blame for the animosity towards the Rigases squarely on Timmy and and other criminal son. (Can't think of his name at the moment, there's that darn selective memory at work again!) The Reader's Digest version of what they were doing was they illegally took loans to buy Adelphia stock when it was going up as they seemed to have figured that if the tech bubble would burst it would burst well after they had made their profits and repaid the loans. In an effort to keep the stock price up, or more accurately, to get it back up, they started cooking the books (claiming imaginary revenue from things like "sold" converter boxes, falsely claiming inflated subscriber numbers, etc.) All the time that the house of cards were being set up, the Rigases were letting the people of Buffalo think that they had finally found a "savior" that was not only going to turn the Sabres around but turn the economy around as well. (Remember the 40+ story Adelphia tower that was going to be built and the several thousand jobs that were moved to Buffalo and the many thousand more that would follow?) The kids were very well educated, they went to schools like Wharton, and knew how stuff should work and how it did work. They also, apparently never had an ethics course in their lives. I don't blame John so much for treating the company as his own private piggy bank because the company HAD BEEN his private piggy bank before it went public and I am sure he counted on his sons (and lawyers and accountants, etc.) to let him know what he legally could and could not do. Since Timmy and the other bad brother were robbing the store, it wasn't very likely they were going to point out to John that he couldn't while they did.

 

Had the brothers kept their dealings legit, Adelphia wouldn't have become the 6th largest cable operator, but it likely would still be a wholly functioning company and Empire and WNSA would probably still be alive today and Timmy, and Johnny, and bad brother #2, and Mikey would all still be free rich men (instead of only Mikey being a freeman today) (and Larry Quinn would still be a politician / real estate developer, not the managing partner of an NHL team).

 

Except for Dom, the Sabres always had difficult negotiations with players during the Rigas era. I can't think of any season during that time that all the players were in training camp on time. Oftentimes players would miss the 1st game or 2 of the season while negotiations were ongoing. I do not have salary figures immediately at hand, so cannot comment definitively on whether the team's payroll was top 10. I'd be very surprised if it was and am certain that if you took Dom's $8 or 9MM out, it would not be. (Maybe someone can track down payroll stats for late '90's / early '00's.) The Peca negotiations happened to be uglier than most as the Sabres came in with a wildly lowball initial offer probably for 2 reasons: 1. Timmy knew that the bottom was about to fall out and he could not afford a large hit to cash flow (if he could maintain cash flow high enough to cover his loans there was always the very outside possibility that the stock price would rebound enough and his dirty dealings could be covered up) and 2. the Sabres knew Peca would start out with an outrageously high initial demand because Peca knew how difficult it was to negotiate with the Sabres. Peca ended up "insulted" and the negotiations did not go well. Their flameout, coupled with the Sabres not getting anything for Peca at that year's deadline (the rumor was Iginla was offered), showed Dom the writing was on the wall and he asked to get the heck out of Dodge.

[Stoner]

That response will be bound in rich Corinthian leather and be available in time for Christmas in the Sabres Store. :) Your posts are amazing, dave. Thanks for posting here.

 

Larry actually talked you out of canceling your season tix? But I heard it was Curly who sealed the deal. :)

[Saber61]

That response will be bound in rich Corinthian leather and be available in time for Christmas in the Sabres Store. :) Your posts are amazing, dave. Thanks for posting here.

 

Larry actually talked you out of canceling your season tix? But I heard it was Curly who sealed the deal. :)

yea i think that post just about summed up the last few years... nice to read as i became a sabres fan in 97-98 and didn't really know much of the history of the rigas take over.

[Stoner]

I do not have salary figures immediately at hand, so cannot comment definitively on whether the team's payroll was top 10. I'd be very surprised if it was and am certain that if you took Dom's $8 or 9MM out, it would not be. (Maybe someone can track down payroll stats for late '90's / early '00's.)

I did a quick Google search and found this:

 

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Busine...al-payrolls.htm

 

It's a fan page, but I trust that the information is correct.

 

I was wrong about the Sabres being in the top 10 during the Rigas Era. Only one year, 2000-2001, did the Sabres even surpass the league average in payroll. That year, they were about 12th.

 

I was thinking about 1991-1995, when the Sabres indeed were solidly in the top 10 and above the league average.

 

My dying brain cells apologize. :)

[Taro T]

I did a quick Google search and found this:

 

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Busine...al-payrolls.htm

 

It's a fan page, but I trust that the information is correct.

 

I was wrong about the Sabres being in the top 10 during the Rigas Era. Only one year, 2000-2001, did the Sabres even surpass the league average in payroll. That year, they were about 12th.

 

I was thinking about 1991-1995, when the Sabres indeed were solidly in the top 10 and above the league average.

 

My dying brain cells apologize. :)

Thanks for tracking down the info. It looks pretty accurate.