Nagy vs. Briere

[Top Shelf]

Just when I thought I had the arbitrators all figured out, I read this today:

 

Coyotes left wing Ladislav Nagy has been awarded a one-year, $3.0 million contract by Arbiter Edwin H. Benn. Nagy will receive $3.0 million for the 2006-07 season.

 

So I take a look at their stats...

 

Nagy:

51 GP

15 G

41 A

56 PTS

 

Briere:

48 GP

25 G

33 A

58 PTS

 

He got knocked out in January with a knee injury, and missed the rest of the season... Is ready to play now... I guess if you get the extra 3 games under you belt, and don't wear the C, you forfeit 2 mil...

 

Where's the love when it comes to Danny and his gift from these guys??? Is it really about where you played last year and not how you did as an individual???

[BetweenThePipes00]

OK now I am pissed. There is no excuse for the difference between these two awards. Briere averages 0.11 more ppg and that is worth $2 million? I understand it is likely a different arbitrator, but they need to be consistent. Phoenix gets Comrie AND Nagy for $6 million this season and the Sabres are forced to pay Briere $5 million ... this becomes a competitve balance issue.

I really am mad about this right now. It makes no sense and the Sabres got the raw end of it.

[PTS]

The Arbitrator must have been French-Canadian. Boy, I rather have Nagy at 3.0 than JP at 2.9.

[Taro T]

OK now I am pissed. There is no excuse for the difference between these two awards. Briere averages 0.11 more ppg and that is worth $2 million? I understand it is likely a different arbitrator, but they need to be consistent. Phoenix gets Comrie AND Nagy for $6 million this season and the Sabres are forced to pay Briere $5 million ... this becomes a competitve balance issue.

I really am mad about this right now. It makes no sense and the Sabres got the raw end of it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of arbitration.

 

My guess as to the biggest source of the discrepancy (other than the major one of it being a different arbitrator) is that Danny had a significantly higher goal total last season, a slightly higher GPG for career, and has been a 30 goal scorer and Nagy has never topped 24 in a season. Helpers are nice in arbitration, but putting the biscuit in yourself seems to garner the big bucks.

 

Dumont's career best being 23 is pretty close to Nagy's 24, as are $2.9MM and $3.0MM.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Welcome to the wonderful world of arbitration.

My guess as to the biggest source of the discrepancy (other than the major one of it being a different arbitrator) is that Danny had a significantly higher goal total last season, a slightly higher GPG for career, and has been a 30 goal scorer and Nagy has never topped 24 in a season. Helpers are nice in arbitration, but putting the biscuit in yourself seems to garner the big bucks.

Dumont's career best being 23 is pretty close to Nagy's 24, as are $2.9MM and $3.0MM.

 

Well, damn, good thing Vanek couldn't go to arbitration with his 25 goals then.

[Barnabov]

Being that the arbitration hearings take place in Toronto, I'm guessing the arbitrators are from there or close by and my conspiracy theory of the day is that they wanted to stick to Buffalo - just like the Toronto media - there seems to be some hatred/jealousy of WNY and that's the only way they can pay us back - just like some angry little froggy dumping a little extra into the sample when he couldn't bear the thought of another American winning the Tour Duh France.

[shrader]

0.72 ppg = $3 million

0.70 ppg = $5 million

0.59 ppg = $2.9 million

 

It's good to see the system works. :rolleyes:

 

Dave, what I think it all comes down to is the fact that Dumont and Briere have ~100 more games played. I can think of nothing else that would explain the gap.

[Taro T]

Being that the arbitration hearings take place in Toronto, I'm guessing the arbitrators are from there or close by and my conspiracy theory of the day is that they wanted to stick to Buffalo - just like the Toronto media - there seems to be some hatred/jealousy of WNY and that's the only way they can pay us back - just like some angry little froggy dumping a little extra into the sample when he couldn't bear the thought of another American winning the Tour Duh France.

D'oh, NEVER post a conspiracy theory right after a BtP post. :blink:

 

Poor TM8-PL16 is gonna get his butt kicked! :o

 

B-)

[Quickdraw]

Arbitration and arbitrary have the same base word...coincidence? Maybe they just throw darts at a board and that's the magic number.

[Eleven]

Welcome to the wonderful world of arbitration.

 

My guess as to the biggest source of the discrepancy (other than the major one of it being a different arbitrator) is that Danny had a significantly higher goal total last season, a slightly higher GPG for career, and has been a 30 goal scorer and Nagy has never topped 24 in a season. Helpers are nice in arbitration, but putting the biscuit in yourself seems to garner the big bucks.

 

Dumont's career best being 23 is pretty close to Nagy's 24, as are $2.9MM and $3.0MM.

 

Also: Does Nagy wear a "C" on his sweater? Is he otherwise considered a team leader? Is he a fan favorite who sells tickets?

[BetweenThePipes00]

D'oh, NEVER post a conspiracy theory right after a BtP post. :blink:

Poor TM8-PL16 is gonna get his butt kicked! :o

B-)

 

:D hehe

 

Seriously, dave is right, I hate the conspiracy theories about Buffalo getting screwed. If the whole system worked great and Briere was the only one out of whack, maybe I would buy that. But the issue is the whole thing is throwing darts at a board. In this case maybe we got the raw deal, but next year it could be someone else. And really any time there is an out-of-whack award, it hurts more than one team because it drives salaries up overall.

 

And if the determining factorin Briere and Dumont got better awards (relatively speaking) than Nagy is just that they have played more NHL games in their career, something is wrong with the system.

 

 

 

Also: Does Nagy wear a "C" on his sweater? Is he otherwise considered a team leader? Is he a fan favorite who sells tickets?

 

By that logic, does Briere do those things $2 million better than Drury? because that's about how much more he is making.

[JonathanH]

Toronto jealous of WNY? Thats funny, other way around on that one. This ain't the 70's

 

And Briere also had a great playoff, which Nagy couldn't

 

And Briere's PPG was 11th in the league right up there with the guys making big money. If you did a comparison of salary and PPG it wouldn't be out of whack. Well except for Crosby and Ovechkin, who make rookie money.

 

Why is everyone up in arms over the arbitrator, you don't have to pay Briere. Tom Golisano does.

 

and by the way schrader

 

briere ppg 1.2 58/48 GET YOUR MATH CORRECT!

[BetweenThePipes00]

Toronto jealous of WNY? Thats funny, other way around on that one. This ain't the 70's

And Briere also had a great playoff, which Nagy couldn't

And Briere's PPG was 11th in the league right up there with the guys making big money. If you did a comparison of salary and PPG it wouldn't be out of whack. Well except for Crosby and Ovechkin, who make rookie money.

Why is everyone up in arms over the arbitrator, you don't have to pay Briere. Tom Golisano does.

and by the way schrader

briere ppg 1.2 58/48 GET YOUR MATH CORRECT!

 

Was a good playoff (during which his production DROPPED from the regular season if you want to be technical about it) really worth $2 million on a $5 million contract? 40% is playoff performance? Cam Ward deserves quite a raise in Carolina then.

 

Also, we are up in arms because if Briere gets $3.5 or 4 million instead of $5 million maybe that's one fewer guy the Sabres need to dump to purge salary. Or maybe that's $1 million more they can give Miller to lock him up long term. It's not that I don't want Briere to get his money, it's that it DOES effect every other move this offseason.

[shrader]

and by the way schrader

 

briere ppg 1.2 58/48 GET YOUR MATH CORRECT!

 

Let's see. How can I reply to this? Should I call you out of not being able to spell a name that's right in front of you? Should I call you out for being too stupid to realize that I posted the career numbers of Nagy, Briere, and Dumont? I have no idea where to go with this.

[Eleven]

:D hehe

 

Seriously, dave is right, I hate the conspiracy theories about Buffalo getting screwed. If the whole system worked great and Briere was the only one out of whack, maybe I would buy that. But the issue is the whole thing is throwing darts at a board. In this case maybe we got the raw deal, but next year it could be someone else. And really any time there is an out-of-whack award, it hurts more than one team because it drives salaries up overall.

 

And if the determining factorin Briere and Dumont got better awards (relatively speaking) than Nagy is just that they have played more NHL games in their career, something is wrong with the system.

 

 

By that logic, does Briere do those things $2 million better than Drury? because that's about how much more he is making.

 

It's not "by that logic" because it's not an argument--just pointing out some more possible differences (I don't know the answers to the questions I asked) between Nagy and Briere.

 

Briere / Drury has nothing to do with it, but I'll bet that if Drury had been in arbitration this summer, his award would have been closer to $5M than to $3M.

[BetweenThePipes00]

It's not "by that logic" because it's not an argument--just pointing out some more possible differences (I don't know the answers to the questions I asked) between Nagy and Briere.

Briere / Drury has nothing to do with it, but I'll bet that if Drury had been in arbitration this summer, his award would have been closer to $5M than to $3M.

 

I don't know the answers either ...

 

Who knows, maybe Nagy's agent sucked in the hearing. Maybe the Sabres didn't bad-mouth Briere in the hearing for fear he would not sign with them, while Phoenix really went after Nagy. But these guys are still the leading scorers on their respective teams and when the production is THAT close, one guy should not be awarded 67% more money than the other. That's all I am saying ... Briere did deserve more, but not THAT much more.

[scottnc]

Also: Does Nagy wear a "C" on his sweater? Is he otherwise considered a team leader? Is he a fan favorite who sells tickets?

 

I really hope that being a fan favorite isn't factored in to the arbitration equation. The simple fact is that two players with VERY similar stats are way off on their arbitration settlements. If there is something outside of performance on the ice that makes a $2,000,000 difference, I'd love to know what it is.

[JonathanH]

Well Im sorry i spelled your screen name wrong, I was scanning down quickly. I was responding to the entire thread.

 

And you should have put Career Numbers next to the stats. Instead of vaguely mentioning career.

 

And I highly doubt the Briere camp used career stats, since this is the "new" nhl. So If the arbitrator worked from a point, say the sabres used 3 million as a jumping point and briere used 6 million. The judge came to a point not in the middle, but favoring Briere.

[Eleven]

I really hope that being a fan favorite isn't factored in to the arbitration equation. The simple fact is that two players with VERY similar stats are way off on their arbitration settlements. If there is something outside of performance on the ice that makes a $2,000,000 difference, I'd love to know what it is.

 

dave b gave some other on-ice reasons, above. If there are off-ice reasons, I'd prefer NOT to know...

[BetweenThePipes00]

Well Im sorry i spelled your screen name wrong, I was scanning down quickly. I was responding to the entire thread.

And you should have put Career Numbers next to the stats. Instead of vaguely mentioning career.

And I highly doubt the Briere camp used career stats, since this is the "new" nhl. So If the arbitrator worked from a point, say the sabres used 3 million as a jumping point and briere used 6 million. The judge came to a point not in the middle, but favoring Briere.

 

If the Sabres went in there offering $3 million, they deserved to get killed in the result. Somehow I doubt they went in that low.

 

That's not the issue. Maybe Briere got exactly what he should have. But if he did, Nagy got royally screwed and should have gotten at least $4 million. we're not saying Briere isn't better or didn't deserve more, it's the HUGE discrepancy that makes no sense.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I wonder if it has to do with the timing of the hearings. Briere kicked off the whole process while Nagy and Comrie were both at the tail end. Did the arbitrator take a step back and look at the full picture and say, wow, no way Briere was worth $5M or Havlat $6M or event Dumont $2.9M?

 

This is like any other legal case. It all depends on how well the arguments are delivered. Too many variables to determine what swayed the decision. Though in the end, it's quiet a gap between $3 and $5M!!!

[shrader]

I wonder if it has to do with the timing of the hearings. Briere kicked off the whole process while Nagy and Comrie were both at the tail end. Did the arbitrator take a step back and look at the full picture and say, wow, no way Briere was worth $5M or Havlat $6M or event Dumont $2.9M?

 

This is like any other legal case. It all depends on how well the arguments are delivered. Too many variables to determine what swayed the decision. Though in the end, it's quiet a gap between $3 and $5M!!!

 

Dave will know the answer to this one. Can the results of the early arbitration awards be used in the later hearings from the same year? In other words, could Nagy's people use Briere's case as a comparison? Looking at the results of this one, I would hope that the answer is no.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Dave will know the answer to this one. Can the results of the early arbitration awards be used in the later hearings from the same year? In other words, could Nagy's people use Briere's case as a comparison? Looking at the results of this one, I would hope that the answer is no.

 

In fact I thought I remembered dave saying they are SUPPOSED to use the previous RFA numbers as a guide, which is what makes this so annoying ... Havlat is TWICE as good as Nagy?!?

 

I'm tellin ya, it's freakin Pin the Tail on the Restricted Free Agent ... crapshoot ...

[shrader]

Well Havlat does have some soccer skills.

[Taro T]

Dave will know the answer to this one. Can the results of the early arbitration awards be used in the later hearings from the same year? In other words, could Nagy's people use Briere's case as a comparison? Looking at the results of this one, I would hope that the answer is no.

Yes, the results of early arbitration awards can be used in hearings. RFA signings that didn't go to arbitration are also potential comparables. To help "clarify" things, I have listed below the items that may and may not be presented to the arbitrator.

 

 

 

What "evidence" parties may bring before the arbitrator:

 

Official stats (basically any stat the league keeps tabs on);

 

Games played by player and illnesses / injuries;

 

How long a player has played in the league and on a particular team;

 

How much the particular player contributed to his team's overall success (a VERY subjective item);

 

Special leadership or public appeal qualities (again, a VERY subjective item);

 

Performance of "comparable" players (subjective, but not nearly AS subjective);

 

Compensation of "comparable" players (again subjective).

 

Note that "comparable" players can only be considered by the Arbitrator IF the player or team presents him as a comparable player. The Arbitrator can't choose his own set of comparables from the entire league, he can only choose his comparables from the lists submitted to him. Also, the league and NHLPA put together a listing of "comparables" prior to this whole procedure. This listing essentially includes all Group 2 players that have a signed contract. The team and player then choose the data from that to support their positions.

 

 

 

What "evidence" is inadmissible:

 

Player contracts for anyone who wasn't a group 2 (RFA) free agent at the beginning of that contract;

 

A slew of items that pertain primarily to past negotiations between the team and player;

 

Any arbitration decision the team walked away from; and

 

Arbitration awards from the old CBA and arbitration awards from '05-'06. (This year's arbitration awards will be fair game for future arbitration hearings.)

 

 

Also, as a side note, I have no idea how the team and player present arguments for or against his leadership abilities, public qualities, and how much he contributed to the team's success. The reason I don't know this is, although the team or player may bring in witnesses to support their case; testimonials, videotapes, newspaper clippings, press game reports, and "other such materials" are not allowed to be presented. If the player wears an A or a C, I can see that as an indication of "leadership abilities", but how would a guy that is a leader but doesn't wear a letter PROVE it? Also, what's the point of being allowed to bring in a witness if "testimonials" are not allowed?