An indication most fans don't really believe in The Plan

[Stoner]

I just had one of Dave's Holy Cow moments. A lot of folks on this board will swear there's a Plan and swear by it. They attribute our success last season as evidence of The Plan and point to TP as the reason we will be contenders for years and years and years to come.

 

And yet, there's not a peep from any of them when the contract of Don Luce, Director of Player Development, is not renewed and Terry Martin, Director of Pro Scouting, leaves. Now we hear that Jim Benning, Director of Amateur Scouting, is headed out the door. That's a lot of Plan Directors!

 

If the Plan advocates are right, these are the men who really made it work. Forget Jay McKee and Mike Grier -- how do we ever replace THOSE guys?

 

Right?

 

Hello?

 

Is this thing on?

 

I'm a Mac. You're a PC. :)

[blugold43]

that's one way of looking at it. another way is that, this past year notwithstanding, we' re one of the poorer teams in the league at drafting and developing talent. i forget the number of 30 goal scorers we've drafted and developed during luce's tenure, but it is paltry. i'd say that we could use an improvement in this area.

 

not that i necessarily trust darcy to replace them, but i don't think they're irreplacable.

[deluca67]

I just had one of Dave's Holy Cow moments. A lot of folks on this board will swear there's a Plan and swear by it. They attribute our success last season as evidence of The Plan and point to TP as the reason we will be contenders for years and years and years to come.

 

And yet, there's not a peep from any of them when the contract of Don Luce, Director of Player Development, is not renewed and Terry Martin, Director of Pro Scouting, leaves. Now we hear that Jim Benning, Director of Amateur Scouting, is headed out the door. That's a lot of Plan Directors!

 

If the Plan advocates are right, these are the men who really made it work. Forget Jay McKee and Mike Grier -- how do we ever replace THOSE guys?

 

Right?

 

Hello?

 

Is this thing on?

 

I'm a Mac. You're a PC. :)

 

Do you even know what any of those guys did? Do you know what their actual jobs consisted of?

 

I doubt it. <_<

 

It cracks me up how every person that leaves the organIzation suddenly becomes the most important person to the franchise.

 

McKee? The Sabres 5th defensemen. " How can we recover."

 

Grier? A third line grinder. "Oh NO. There goes all the toughness."

 

Briere? A career 50-60 point a year guy. "There goes our superstar who only scores 50-60 points."

 

Luce, Martin and Benning? "Oh dear. Now all of our prospects will suck."

 

What will I be reading tomorrow?

 

Earl Schratcski 'Urinal Cake Supervisor' quits. - The boards response? "Oh save us Jesus. How will we make it to the finals without fresh urinal cakes. We are doomed."

 

 

With the sky falling so much on the Sabres Nation it must look like the Middle East :blink:

[Taro T]

I just had one of Dave's Holy Cow moments. A lot of folks on this board will swear there's a Plan and swear by it. They attribute our success last season as evidence of The Plan and point to TP as the reason we will be contenders for years and years and years to come.

 

And yet, there's not a peep from any of them when the contract of Don Luce, Director of Player Development, is not renewed and Terry Martin, Director of Pro Scouting, leaves. Now we hear that Jim Benning, Director of Amateur Scouting, is headed out the door. That's a lot of Plan Directors!

 

If the Plan advocates are right, these are the men who really made it work. Forget Jay McKee and Mike Grier -- how do we ever replace THOSE guys?

 

Right?

 

Hello?

 

Is this thing on?

 

I'm a Mac. You're a PC. :)

Luce leaving may be a good thing or a bad thing. Terry Martin leaving was most likely not a good thing. If it is true that Jim Benning is leaving as well, that is a VERY bad thing. (I haven't been overly impressed with Luce's results through the years, have been fairly happy with Martin, and very happy with Benning.)

 

I haven't commented on it as I am still trying to get a handle on what it actually means. I haven't heard who their replacements are nor have I had a chance to hear any details of why the changes were made. My initial reaction is not favorable but that could change with more details.

 

Following are some of my current ramblings about the subject in general. They are fairly disjointed as I haven't fully thought out how the different pieces of the puzzle affect and effect each other. I haven't posted them earlier because they are kind of "doom and gloom" but there could definitely be things I am missing (and most likely are) which would make the outlook far more positive.

 

I am still trying to digest all the implications of how the salary cap and revenue sharing will affect team back offices. The salary cap will allow small market teams to keep their player salaries at ~54% of their own revenue stream, as revenue sharing will give the teams additional money after they have budgeted their 54% (not exactly how it works, but that's the jist of it).

 

Where the Sabres (and other small market teams) COULD get hurt and the long run effect of the salary cap COULD still favor the large market teams is the 46% of total revenue that the Rangers have left over is a LOT more than the 46% of total revenue that the Sabres have left over. Because they will have more money left over, I would not be surprised to see the "big boys" paying more to their scouts and also having larger scouting staffs than the little guys have. This is where the playing field still isn't level. (It wasn't under the old system either, but back when the Rangers would spend $60MM+ and most everybody else was spending several MM less, they wouldn't necessarily have the luxury of also significantly outspending other teams in the backoffice because they were spending so much more in the product on the ice. Actually, the results the Rangers had the past several years would suggest they didn't spend ANYTHING on their scouting department. ;) )

 

I see a couple of things that could potentially keep this from creating a truly non-competitive situation. In the short term, hopefully Tom will see that he needs to have a top tier scouting department in order to make "the plan" work. It could very well be more important for him to have a hockey department budget that exceeds the league average than to have a player payroll approaching or above it. Golisano is a very bright guy, and Quinn seems to be pretty intelligent as well; prior to these recent announcements I felt confident that the Sabres would spend relatively lavishly on their hockey department. I will maintain hope that that is the case, but I am not as confident regarding that as I was.

 

In the long term, the league needs to increase their national TV revenues (and other jointly shared revenues) so that the bulk of a team's revenues come from League generated streams rather than locally generated streams. HDTV will help in this regard and keeping an entertaining product on the ice will help as well. I don't know how the league gets past the current ESPN, talk radio, non-northeast local news attitudes of "we don't cover the NHL because no one cares about it; but when we do cover it, the coverage is uniformly negative; and then we don't understand why no one cares about it when they can't get exposed to it, repeat the cycle, booyah". Figuring out how to get positive coverage from existing outlets is something that I leave to people far brighter than I am, because I have absolutely no idea how to do it short of continuing to put an entertaining product on the ice and then bribing them.

 

EDIT: One other thing the league could do to keep a competitive balance, although I am not certain that the clubs could ever agree on such a thing (if it is even legal, not sure of the antitrust implications), is to provide a range for expenditures on scouting staffs that all teams must stay within.

[LabattBlue]

Where are the reports of Benning leaving?? I had not heard this before now.

 

[edited]My mistake. I found it...

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060722/1058694.asp

 

Regier also said that the Sabres may lose two more members of their hockey department in the near future. Rochester Americans assistant coach Doug Houda and Director of Amateur Scouting Jim Benning may accept positions with other organizations.

 

"This happens when a team has had success," Regier said.

 

Don Luce, director of player development, and Terry Martin, director of pro scouting, left the Sabres last week.

[Stoner]

DeLuca, despite your rare bit of actual humor, I think you are whistling past the graveyard. Do I know what those guys did? Uhhhhh, I think I have an idea. And I would think if I've been praising the plan, I should be praising those guys and should be worrying about their departure, and the concerns Dave brings out. Let me guess. You weren't all that bothered when that a-hole Bill Polian got his. Wait, maybe this is part of The Plan too. When out front office player evaluation staff gets too expensive, they're out the door and a cheap replacement is plugged in. Ladies and gentleman, new director of amateur and professional scouting and development Earl Schratcski. "Hi, my name is Earl. Who am I? Why am I here?"

[LabattBlue]

Do you even know what any of those guys did? Do you know what their actual jobs consisted of?

 

I doubt it. <_<

 

It cracks me up how every person that leaves the organIzation suddenly becomes the most important person to the franchise.

 

It's called an organization structure. When you lose your 3 DIRECTORS of pro & amateur scouting, it is going to hurt. These are the top 3 hockey guys directly under Regier. I'm not sure if you head is in the sand, you have on the rose colored glasses OR BOTH! <_<

[mphs mike]

that's one way of looking at it. another way is that, this past year notwithstanding, we' re one of the poorer teams in the league at drafting and developing talent. i forget the number of 30 goal scorers we've drafted and developed during luce's tenure, but it is paltry. i'd say that we could use an improvement in this area.

 

not that i necessarily trust darcy to replace them, but i don't think they're irreplacable.

 

 

My thoughts exactly when I heard Luce was leaving. I'll never forget #20, DON LUUUUUUUUUUCE! but his scouting results have been mundane at best from my perspective.

[deluca67]

DeLuca, despite your rare bit of actual humor, I think you are whistling past the graveyard. Do I know what those guys did? Uhhhhh, I think I have an idea. And I would think if I've been praising the plan, I should be praising those guys and should be worrying about their departure, and the concerns Dave brings out. Let me guess. You weren't all that bothered when that a-hole Bill Polian got his. Wait, maybe this is part of The Plan too. When out front office player evaluation staff gets too expensive, they're out the door and a cheap replacement is plugged in. Ladies and gentleman, new director of amateur and professional scouting and development Earl Schratcski. "Hi, my name is Earl. Who am I? Why am I here?"

 

Or maybe the front office was a bit 'Top Heavy'? Maybe the Sabres have people in place already who can take on the jobs and are ready for the chance.

 

The most successful companies in the world constantly make changes at the top. They move new people in with new ideas and move out those who may be stale.

 

It could one of a thousand reasons why the changes happen. To cry about the sky falling in on the Sabres based on 0% of any information regarding the changes is pointless.

 

And the Bills did make it to a Super Bowl after Polian left. :o

[Stoner]

Why makes changes after those guys took you to the brink of a Cup? What is "stale" about their performance? I agree that more information is needed about why so many people are leaving (including Larry Carriere a while back). My original point, however, was why more Plan Fans weren't concerned about the changes. IMHO, it's because there is no Plan, and everyone, deep down, knows it.

 

As for the last sentence, I will leave that hanging softball for our resident Bills experts to knock out of the park. And it is gone goodbye!

[deluca67]

Why makes changes after those guys took you to the brink of a Cup? What is "stale" about their performance? I agree that more information is needed about why so many people are leaving (including Larry Carriere a while back). My original point, however, was why more Plan Fans weren't concerned about the changes. IMHO, it's because there is no Plan, and everyone, deep down, knows it.

 

As for the last sentence, I will leave that hanging softball for our resident Bills experts to knock out of the park. And it is gone goodbye!

 

None are concerned because there is nothing to be concerned about. Structural changes happen all the time. They happen nomatter what business plan is in place. ;)

[jad1]

Man, these 'dump on Regier' posts are becoming so ridiculous you have to wonder if they are just desperate cries for attention.

 

Let's not forget that Kotalik, in '02-'03 was the first Regier-drafted player to score more than 20 goals for the team. And up until this season, he was the only one.

 

No doubt, there's still room for improvement in the draft department.

 

And let's dump this whole idea of a "Plan" which you enjoy using as a strawman. In the salary cap era, every team needs to develop its young players.

 

It's becoming obvious that there are several posters on this board who are ready to play chicken little if they believe Regier even farts the wrong way. If you need attention that badly, my suggestion is that you run down your street naked; it'll save the rest of us the wasted time of defending a GM who is coming of a franchise-record season for wins and points.

[Stoner]

Isn't it odd that you claim someone was dumping on Darcy, yet you were the first person in the thread to actually do it, criticizing his draft record? Oh the hilarity!

 

Nice avatar, though.

 

And, please, keep your pants on from now on.

[SDS]

Isn't it odd that you claim someone was dumping on Darcy, yet you were the first person in the thread to actually do it, criticizing his draft record? Oh the hilarity!

 

Nice avatar, though.

 

And, please, keep your pants on from now on.

 

He has a point. Your "Plan" post is little more than a straw man, as if the organzational plan for the future was a modern day Manhattan Project and only a select few could ever hope to comprehend the sheer complexity of it all. :rolleyes:

 

Every team needs to identify talent. The coaches and GM tell the others what skill sets they are looking for. I doubt these men are the only ones involved in hockey who can identify players that may fit the team well.

[Stoner]

The Plan is not a figment of my imagination, and it is certainly not a strawman, oh jilted lover. :)

 

Many posters here will tell you that Regier put The Plan in place back in the early 00s -- get young, get cheap, get deep and get fast in anticipation of what the NHL would look like post-lockout. (Now, it IS a figment of THEIR imagination -- even Darcy has said the idea of a Plan is a crock and luck played the major role in why the team was seemingly perfectly prepared for the 05-06 season.) These posters will also tell you that Regier is indeed a visionary genius and to prove the point will offer up all the teams that are not doing it Regier's way and thus are doomed to failure. The Plan, according to the Planians, is for the Sabres, now that they've had some success, to keep plugging in cheaper replacements, ensuring that Golly doesn't die broken, alone and penniless, and to do that they have to keep drafting well, almost perfectly. Which is why the loss of so much of the front office infrastructure should be a major concern to them.

[IKnowPhysics]

I lieu of rattling on with a two page essay, I'll execute some concision.

 

Jim Benning is the fuccing man.

[Stoner]

Don't worry. We'll just plug in another fuccer. I mean, how hard can it be? Just pick players who have the right skill set. Right SDS?

[rickshaw]

We're doomed. There are NO other good hockey people left in this Universe. What will we do??

 

Everyone is replaceable, let's not forget that for a second. That's the way life goes. They're gone. Let's stop crying over spilled milk and move on. It's done already.

 

What if.........................

[IKnowPhysics]

There are NO other good hockey people left in this Universe.

 

 

Of course there are good hockey people left, but the sorrow is for the coming situation.

 

These people were great at their jobs, and now we're in the situation of wondering if our usually competent GM can successfully fill positions he's never had to hire for with great staff. One of the few silver linings is that despite Martin's moving to another NHL team, that team is in the opposite conference (Avalanche).

 

I have faith that all will be well, but odds are that one of the three positions will have to be re-hired after being filled in the next three years.

[jad1]

Isn't it odd that you claim someone was dumping on Darcy, yet you were the first person in the thread to actually do it, criticizing his draft record? Oh the hilarity!

 

Nice avatar, though.

 

And, please, keep your pants on from now on.

 

Again, you try to create a straw-man. You assume because I support Regier, I believe he is without fault. A position that I have never taken. Up until this season, developing young talent has been an issue for the Sabres.

 

Here's some facts to back up my point, and to burn down your strawman:

 

Brian Campbell is a 6th round pick. Paul Gaustad a 7th. Ryan Miller a 5th; Kotalik a 6th. Not bad for later rounds

 

But after eight years of drafts, Regier had only two of his 1st round picks on last year's roster: Kalinen (1998) and Vanek (2003). They also had two #2 picks from the Regier era, both in the same year: Pominville ('01), Roy ('01). So outside of 2001, the Sabres have gotten very little from the 2nd round under Regier.

 

Also consider that they let a #2 choice in Janik leave with no qualifying offer this offseason.

 

So while the Regier-led front office has done a nice job in later rounds, the fact is that only had four players drafted in the first two rounds on last year's roster.

 

To be successful in the "new" NHL, teams have to maximize their drafts, especially in the early rounds. Under Regier, Buffalo has done a poor job doing so, so it's not surprising that changes are being made.

[apuszczalowski]

PA - C'mon, Darcy is a genius Hockey mind, he knows what he is doing, they were just his puppets. It was all Regier. They guy has had 3 ECF teams (Strike that, 1, the other 2 were Haseks)

 

Of course no one is worried about the effect of losing 3 guys incharge of player development and drafting is going to have on the team, cause if they did, the sky might not be as bright.

 

And now we all know the Sabres are gonna suck next year cause Deluca is on board with them this year, Last year when he was criticizing everything and predicting doom, they did well, now that he has pulled a 180, I think the team is going to end up doing the same. Deluca, please, come back to the Dark side, for the good of the team!

[jad1]

I think you and PA should be known as the resident Scarecrow posters on the board, because of your love of strawmen.

 

The only ones claiming that Darcy is omnipotent are you two clowns, eh Scarecrows, in an effort to make your baseless cases against him.

 

And by the way, that argument about the Darcy's 2 ECFs not counting because of Hasek, and the third one not counting because it's "only" one, is classic. It takes a special mind to come up with that one.

 

What did the "Scarecrow" sing again, oh yeah, "If I Only Had a Brain." :lol:

 

 

 

 

PA - C'mon, Darcy is a genius Hockey mind, he knows what he is doing, they were just his puppets. It was all Regier. They guy has had 3 ECF teams (Strike that, 1, the other 2 were Haseks)

 

Of course no one is worried about the effect of losing 3 guys incharge of player development and drafting is going to have on the team, cause if they did, the sky might not be as bright.

 

And now we all know the Sabres are gonna suck next year cause Deluca is on board with them this year, Last year when he was criticizing everything and predicting doom, they did well, now that he has pulled a 180, I think the team is going to end up doing the same. Deluca, please, come back to the Dark side, for the good of the team!

[apuszczalowski]

I think you and PA should be known as the resident Scarecrow posters on the board, because of your love of strawmen.

 

The only ones claiming that Darcy is omnipotent are you two clowns, eh Scarecrows, in an effort to make your baseless cases against him.

 

And by the way, that argument about the Darcy's 2 ECFs not counting because of Hasek, and the third one not counting because it's "only" one, is classic. It takes a special mind to come up with that one.

 

What did the "Scarecrow" sing again, oh yeah, "If I Only Had a Brain." :lol:

Change Strawmwn to Strawwoman and I don't care what you call me

 

And where did you pick up that I said his last ECF shouldn't count because it was his "only" one? My point was, anytime I say something negative about Darcy, I get "Well he has been to the ECF 3 times in 7 years, thats not bad". My point is, 2 of times you could have had Rochester playing on the ice infront of Hasek and we probably would have still been in the finals. Hasek carried that team for years and that made the team look alot better.

 

I'm basing my Darcy is a genius comments on the responses I get that every player can be replaced by one that is currently in Rochester, the response I get that he only makes good trades that are steals, and the comments of him having a "Plan" and knows what it takes to win in the new NHL. Its funny how he went from being a whipping boy last offseason (when he had been to 2 ECF's in 6 years and had the same great trade record as now) to almost being spotted walking across lake Erie

[deluca67]

PA - C'mon, Darcy is a genius Hockey mind, he knows what he is doing, they were just his puppets. It was all Regier. They guy has had 3 ECF teams (Strike that, 1, the other 2 were Haseks)

 

Of course no one is worried about the effect of losing 3 guys incharge of player development and drafting is going to have on the team, cause if they did, the sky might not be as bright.

 

And now we all know the Sabres are gonna suck next year cause Deluca is on board with them this year, Last year when he was criticizing everything and predicting doom, they did well, now that he has pulled a 180, I think the team is going to end up doing the same. Deluca, please, come back to the Dark side, for the good of the team!

 

Again. I havn't changed. The facts in which I base my opinion did.

 

Going into last year the Sabres where on a three season playoff drought and just let go their two best players. Low and behold all of my fears were put to rest.

 

Unlike others :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I don't need to create new problems to complain about.

 

Even still. I will have a big complaint if the Sabres end up having to pay $3+ million for a 60 point a year hockey player. Over paying marginal players will cripple this franchise. ;)

[hopeleslyobvious]

Change Strawmwn to Strawwoman and I don't care what you call me

 

And where did you pick up that I said his last ECF shouldn't count because it was his "only" one? My point was, anytime I say something negative about Darcy, I get "Well he has been to the ECF 3 times in 7 years, thats not bad". My point is, 2 of times you could have had Rochester playing on the ice infront of Hasek and we probably would have still been in the finals. Hasek carried that team for years and that made the team look alot better.

 

I'm basing my Darcy is a genius comments on the responses I get that every player can be replaced by one that is currently in Rochester, the response I get that he only makes good trades that are steals, and the comments of him having a "Plan" and knows what it takes to win in the new NHL. Its funny how he went from being a whipping boy last offseason (when he had been to 2 ECF's in 6 years and had the same great trade record as now) to almost being spotted walking across lake Erie

 

Well, I think you like to ignore what people actually say. No one has said you can plug any player in to the lineup and the team will still be successful. I can't speak for everyone else, but here is my position:

 

1. The team has a limited budget (self imposed and salary cap).

2. Every dollar you overpay one player, is a dollar you can't spend elsewhere

3. The best way to spend the money is to have a solid roster top to bottom rather than spending big money on a few players at the expense of the 3rd and 4th line, and the 5th and 6th defensemen.