Roster Trimming for Picks

[frisky]

Well, from the article this morning, it sounds to me like what I thought the direction they might be headed towards in trading players aways for draft picks to maintain their budget since lots of them will be making more than just 10% of qualifying if they hit arbitration or not. And, it also sounds again like they won't be active in re-signing McKee et al. if they aren't interested in trying to sign them before open season hits. It would be our chance to sign them for less than their market value to get them before July. It sounds like they keep emphasizing the same old same old so we won't cry too much. He also mentioned that they don't know how much the budget will increase but in my opinion I think they should have a pretty decent number already that they have in mind. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of our more "high-profile" (for us anyways) player or players dealt to move in the Crap Shoot 2006...which really won't pay off until like 2010. I guess we will see.

[GrimFandango]

I think we will see younger players having an impact earlier, hence the signing of Zagrapan which may not have been until next year under the old rules. Just like in football, 1st year and 2nd year players are big time contributors in the salary cap era. Back during the Bills glory years, how many rookies contributed largely in their first few seasons? (granted those picks were also in the late 20's back then)

[elcrusho]

Bye Jay, Mike, Taylor...

 

Regier also predicted the Sabres wouldn't re-sign any of their unrestricted free agents before the market opens July 1 and revealed the club will extend qualifying contract offers to almost all their restricted free agents before next Monday's deadline.

[SDS]

what about dealing Max? Sometimes you have to give up good players to get good players...

[Taro T]

Well, from the article this morning, it sounds to me like what I thought the direction they might be headed towards in trading players aways for draft picks to maintain their budget since lots of them will be making more than just 10% of qualifying if they hit arbitration or not. And, it also sounds again like they won't be active in re-signing McKee et al. if they aren't interested in trying to sign them before open season hits. It would be our chance to sign them for less than their market value to get them before July. It sounds like they keep emphasizing the same old same old so we won't cry too much. He also mentioned that they don't know how much the budget will increase but in my opinion I think they should have a pretty decent number already that they have in mind. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of our more "high-profile" (for us anyways) player or players dealt to move in the Crap Shoot 2006...which really won't pay off until like 2010. I guess we will see.

I've seen this sentiment posted several times on this board (and elsewhere) and I don't understand it.

 

Everyone seems to think that McKee (or any other veteran that qualifies for UFA status) will sign for less money (and it goes unsaid, but is implied, that he will sign for significantly less money) if signed prior to July 1. Why would he EVER take less money than he thinks he could make on the open market to sign PRIOR to July 1?

 

There is absolutely no valid reason, other than him being very dimwitted (which I don't believe he is) for him to sign prior to July 1 unless the Sabres throw their checkbook at him. Yes, because he likes playing for the Sabres and his wife is from the area, he MIGHT take less money to stay with them. He won't do it prior to finding out what his open market value is.

 

The players that are signing early, are being signed to LARGE contracts for 2 reasons.

 

1. The club has to pony up to get the player to give up something that has large value to him. His ability to play for whomever he wants, provided he can agree to a contract with that team.

 

2. The club is paying a premium to remove uncertaintly (risk) from their plans. The teams tend to be risk adverse, so there is a value to them to remove the risk of a player they (and their fans) want to see back next year in somebody else's sweater.

 

The Sabres, while they would like to avoid the risk of losing Jay, do not have the money to pay to remove that risk. I truly doubt any team is going to spend $MM's more PER SEASON for McKee than the Sabres would be willing to spend. (An argument could be made that he is more valuable to Buffalo than any other team, as the Sabres know exactly what they are getting from him and know he fits into their system.)

 

The far greater risk of losing Jay that the Sabres face is someone offering him a 5 year deal if the Sabres are only willing to go 3 years. As someone posted, NHL contracts are guaranteed (at least for 2/3, at any rate). We don't KNOW that the Sabres won't go more than 3 years on an offer to Jay, although that is likely.

 

If Jay got a 5 year $3MM/season deal and the Sabres were willing to give him $3MM/ for 3. (I don't know that these are the numbers that will be bandied about, but am using them for discussion purposes only.) The difference in guaranteed money to McKee would be $4MM. How much would it throw the Sabres payroll off to give McKee an offer for $4.33MM/ for 3 years? I think it would throw it out of wack tremendously.

 

I don't see the Sabres (under current management and the current CBA) ever signing an UFA PRIOR to the deadline for free agency. I can however see the Sabres giving a player like Briere, who is 1 year away from UFA status, a long (probably 3-4 year) term deal to put off UFA. The contract doesn't have to be as crazily expensive to get the player to relinquish his potential UFA status when he is 1-2 years away because the contract is 2/3 guaranteed AND the player has the uncertainty of injury or a potential bad season that could make his venture into UFA land much less lucrative than he would hope it to be.

 

The Sabres hold no cards wrt McKee or Grier or the other UFA's. They do hold some wrt the RFA's.

[apuszczalowski]

Its not that they hink he will sign for less, Its that if they sign him now, they don't have to worry about being in a bidding war for him. If they give him something reasonable or work something out, he is guaranteed to stay, If they wait til after July 1st he could find another team that is willing to grossly overpay for him and Buffalo loses one of their top defencemen and become even weaker on a team that was already thin on defence. Its not like were talking about how the Sabres have to sign Chara, we are talking about a good defencemen that was an important part of the teams success and would probably sign for 3 mil a season for a couple years, and if Buffalo can't afford that or is not willing to pay that, this team is in serious trouble

[Taro T]

Its not that they hink he will sign for less, Its that if they sign him now, they don't have to worry about being in a bidding war for him. If they give him something reasonable or work something out, he is guaranteed to stay, If they wait til after July 1st he could find another team that is willing to grossly overpay for him and Buffalo loses one of their top defencemen and become even weaker on a team that was already thin on defence. Its not like were talking about how the Sabres have to sign Chara, we are talking about a good defencemen that was an important part of the teams success and would probably sign for 3 mil a season for a couple years, and if Buffalo can't afford that or is not willing to pay that, this team is in serious trouble

Since we know this is a likely possibility, why wouldn't Jay know it as well?

 

If he knows he could hit the lottery on July 1, why would he sign for anything short of hitting the lottery prior to that?

 

You haven't provided a reason for why McKee would be willing to sign the 2 year deal at $3MM/year that you want to see him sign. (Not that I am implying that the Sabres will make that offer.) Especially when you imply that some other team would be willing to significantly top that offer.

 

It is entirely in McKee's court, whether to sign an offer now or wait for July 1. The ONLY way the Sabres might take "control" of the negotiations is by being that team that is willing to "grossly overpay" him. (Even then, it's still his perogative to sign the ridiculously high Sabres offer or wait to see if someone else will top even that.) They can not or will not (take your pick) be that team that grossly overpays him.

[LabattBlue]

I think we will see younger players having an impact earlier, hence the signing of Zagrapan which may not have been until next year under the old rules.

 

The Sabres have expressed an interest in getting Zagrapan under contract, but he has not signed as far as I know.

[Kristian]

what about dealing Max? Sometimes you have to give up good players to get good players...

 

But is Max a good player?

 

Well alright, he had a good stint but I must admit that seeing him losing 3 years of maturing overnight when the playoffs started really got him on my worst possible side.

 

I cringed everytime I saw his stupid "dipsy-doodle-dandy-me-so-fast-me-TOO-fast-oops-me-lost-the-puck" routine, and his blind behind the back passes back to the point were just KILLERS!

 

Oh, and would someone teach him another trick than just cutting to the high slot and shooting low short side? There is NO goalie in the NHL who doesn't know what Max will do when he breaks down the wing. That said it might be succesful once in a while if he could actually get the puck off the ice more than 2% of the time.

 

There's no guy I'd rather see go on this team than Max. He's had 6 full seasons in the NHL now, and I'm afraid what we see is what we get, so yeah - why not see if we can get something useful in return for him?

[Bmwolf21]

Some random, disjointed thoughts that might make sense to someone...

 

I'm not sure why some on this board (and those I've talked to offline) seem to think we should just "bring back the band" for another run at it. Its not realistic in either the financial or on-ice/hockey departments. As much as we'd love to, we can't blow the budget and salary structure for sentimental reasons. Jay McKee - great leader, probably should have locked him up earlier, but we needed to see how he would fare in the new NHL; and what kind of fan support the team could expect (which impacts revenues) coming out of the lockout. Maybe TG and Darcy understimated his worth to the team, how he would fare in the faster-paced NHL, whatever; now it will cost them if they want to keep him.

 

Would I love to turn back the clock, erase all the injuries and go head-to-head with Carolina for 7 games with a full roster? Abso-freakin-lutely. Can't happen though, so we need to look at why (aside from the hockey gods spiting us) we lost that series. Was it lack of defensive depth? To a point, yes. Regular season scorers coming up dry in the post-season (I'm looking at you Max, Jochen and even you too, Vanek) - that's a point as well. Penalty killing? Could be - Carolina rallied on the strength of PP goals. Point is, there are areas that need to be improved or upgraded, and though I struggle to find a better word, there are cheaper alternatives to some of the role players we have now. Can we afford to spend $2 million on a backup goaltender? Can we afford to pay roughly $1.5 million to Grier to kill penalties? Can we afford to pay McKee #1-type D-man money when he probably isn't our #1 defenseman? Are Paetsch, Janik & Novotny ready to stay with the big club? How much of a pay raise is Max going to expect, and likewise, how much is he worth? I don't know the answers to these questions, though I have my opinions on them.

 

To be clear, though - I also don't have the doom & gloom feeling that some on here have. I'd really be surprised if most (if not all) of our RFAs don't return. I can see some minor trades (and maybe a bigger one involving Biron, Max, Kotalik, or any combination of the three) or letting some players (UFAs) walk, but I'm not reading too much into little blurbs here and there from Darcy/TG about being budget conscious, etc. Let's be honest - how many times has Darcy given a non-PC/doublespeak-type answer since he's been the GM here? He has mastered the art of saying a lot but not really saying anything at all - like a politician. Why tip his hand going into negotiations? Let the players (and their agents) guess at how much pie will be available for next season, so they can try to figure out how much their slice will be.

 

I really think, if healthy, we would have gotten past Carolina and probably also beaten Edmonton. Next year will be completely different - guys are a year older, a little more banged up, attitudes change, the league catches up to what you're doing. Therefore, change is not only inevitable, but some change is also necessary to maintain the team's competitve focus.

 

As for Max - I think he has some trade value, although I don't know how much. I could see some team gettting excited about his regular season play and giving up on someone they have lost faith in (like the Gratton-for-Briere or Barnaby-for-Barnes trades.)

[chileanseabass]

i'm sure max has value to a lot of teams out there. frankly i think he should be one of the first forwards dealt along with pyatt. he'll command the greatest return (without moving drury, briere, or vanek).

[apuszczalowski]

But is Darcy looking for a big return in a trade for a forward?

 

From the way it sounds, they are looking for deals for draft picks since they think they can just fill holes with the youngsters in their farm system and not miss a step.

[nfreeman]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Max is not for sale. I'm amazed that there are so many posters ready to unload our leading scorer from last season.

 

Yes, he had a crappy playoffs, but he's only 26. He had FIFTY-ONE ASSISTS last year!! He plays hard. He goes into the corner and digs it out. He jumps into the middle of the scrums in front of the net. He comes to his teammates' aid when they're getting pushed around. He's also incredibly fast and a really exciting player. Finally, he made $1.1 million last year -- pretty good value.

 

Why in the world would we want to unload him? Maybe in a package for Scott Neidermayer -- but NFW if it's just a top 4 defenseman.

 

Just my opinion.

[Kristian]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Max is not for sale. I'm amazed that there are so many posters ready to unload our leading scorer from last season.

 

Yes, he had a crappy playoffs, but he's only 26. He had FIFTY-ONE ASSISTS last year!! He plays hard. He goes into the corner and digs it out. He jumps into the middle of the scrums in front of the net. He comes to his teammates' aid when they're getting pushed around. He's also incredibly fast and a really exciting player. Finally, he made $1.1 million last year -- pretty good value.

 

Why in the world would we want to unload him? Maybe in a package for Scott Neidermayer -- but NFW if it's just a top 4 defenseman.

 

Just my opinion.

 

You'd unload him for the exact reasons you just stated.

 

Tons of points in the regular season = Value.

Crappy playoff = Reason to unload.

Due for a raise = Reason to unload.

26 years old = Added bonus

[nfreeman]

You'd unload him for the exact reasons you just stated.

 

Tons of points in the regular season = Value.

Crappy playoff = Reason to unload.

Due for a raise = Reason to unload.

26 years old = Added bonus

 

Sorry, but I must disagree. I think the reasons you cited are all reasons why other teams would love to snag him from us for lesser value, e.g. draft picks or decent-but-not-star defenseman. In other words, we panic b/c he had a crappy playoffs and he's due for a raise, and forget that he had a great regular season and is only 26, while another team sees our panic and swoops in with a mediocre offer hoping that we want to unload him for whatever they'll give us. I don't see Darcy falling for it.

[Kristian]

Sorry, but I must disagree. I think the reasons you cited are all reasons why other teams would love to snag him from us for lesser value, e.g. draft picks or decent-but-not-star defenseman. In other words, we panic b/c he had a crappy playoffs and he's due for a raise, and forget that he had a great regular season and is only 26, while another team sees our panic and swoops in with a mediocre offer hoping that we want to unload him for whatever they'll give us. I don't see Darcy falling for it.

 

Well, what you call panicking, I call dealing from a position of strength.

 

Yes, other teams want him, which is why they're probably willing to part with more than just your regular Jamie Langenbrunner for him.

 

I'm not saying we should GIVE him away or just unload him for the sake of unloading him, which is what I get the feeling you think I'm saying?

 

If Darcy plays his cards right, he can package Biron with Max, and get some serious skill in return that would help this hockey club a damn sight more than Max ever will. Who exactly I don't know, but there are several clubs in the market for a goalie. Maybe they'd be willing to part with something extra in a package deal?

 

Bottom line is that Max scared me to death in the playoffs, and I would like to see him gone while he commands the value he does now.

 

Chances of that happening though are slim to none, as The Sabres don't usually do things that way.

[Taro T]

Well, what you call panicking, I call dealing from a position of strength.

 

Yes, other teams want him, which is why they're probably willing to part with more than just your regular Jamie Langenbrunner for him.

 

I'm not saying we should GIVE him away or just unload him for the sake of unloading him, which is what I get the feeling you think I'm saying?

 

If Darcy plays his cards right, he can package Biron with Max, and get some serious skill in return that would help this hockey club a damn sight more than Max ever will. Who exactly I don't know, but there are several clubs in the market for a goalie. Maybe they'd be willing to part with something extra in a package deal?

 

Bottom line is that Max scared me to death in the playoffs, and I would like to see him gone while he commands the value he does now.

 

Chances of that happening though are slim to none, as The Sabres don't usually do things that way.

The thing is, I don't see the Sabres packaging players for someone else unless it is a 2 for 2 or 3 for 3 kind of thing. Because if the Sabres do trade Marty and Max (or Ales or JP or (put forward not named Danny, Chris, Thomas, or Jochen here)) for a stud defenseman, the team will have to most likely be paying someone over $3.5MM which I simply don't see happening.

 

I've been a huge advocate of the Sabres trading a goalie and a forward for a D-man, but I just don't see a way that happens in the Sabres salary structure unless some team's backup goalie comes back in the package. Even if that 2 for 2 happens, the D-man won't be recognised by anyone (outside of Darcy and perhaps the scouts and Lindy) as a stud at the time the trade is made.

[Orange Seats]

 

If Darcy plays his cards right, he can package Biron with Max, and get some serious skill in return that would help this hockey club a damn sight more than Max ever will. Who exactly I don't know, but there are several clubs in the market for a goalie. Maybe they'd be willing to part with something extra in a package deal?

 

 

Max and Marty to the Oilers for Mike Peca? :lol:

[apuszczalowski]

Max and Marty to the Oilers for Mike Peca? :lol:

Please say this won't happen, he was the opposite of max, subpar most of the regular season, stepped it up in the playoffs where max stepped it up in the regular season and was subpar in the playoffs

 

Max and Biron to Florida for Horton and Bouwmester????????

Heck, throw in Dumont with this and I'd still pull the trigger!

 

The kings are supposedly REALLY interested in Luongo so they will need a goalie

[blugold43]

But is Darcy looking for a big return in a trade for a forward?

 

From the way it sounds, they are looking for deals for draft picks since they think they can just fill holes with the youngsters in their farm system and not miss a step.

shee-oot, if he could deal max for a player who gave us what teppo or lydman did...

 

 

that's probably too much to hope for.

[nfreeman]

 

The thing is, I don't see the Sabres packaging players for someone else unless it is a 2 for 2 or 3 for 3 kind of thing. Because if the Sabres do trade Marty and Max (or Ales or JP or (put forward not named Danny, Chris, Thomas, or Jochen here)) for a stud defenseman, the team will have to most likely be paying someone over $3.5MM which I simply don't see happening.

 

 

Exactly. We are not going to package Max and Marty for a $5 million per year star. Not the Sabres' style, and not within their budget. The team is too good to bring in an outsider who makes 20-30% more than anyone else on the team -- that would be 100% certain to ruin team chemistry.

 

 

 

shee-oot, if he could deal max for a player who gave us what teppo or lydman did...

 

 

that's probably too much to hope for.

 

 

 

Personally, this is much LESS than I would hope for. Trading our leading scorer for a #3 or #4 defenseman would be getting very poor value in return. Darcy's not going there. Now, I could definitely see him trading Marty by himself for a defenseman that fits that description.

 

Of course, some freak situation could arise where there is a true 1st-team all-star defenseman (Pronger, Niedermayer, Chara, etc.) who for some reason needs to be traded AND we could get him at $4 million per year or less -- then yes, by all means, trade Marty and Max for him. But it would have to be one of the top 4 or 5 defensemen in the league -- all of whom are $5-$6 million per year guys. I wouldn't trade Max for another Tallinder -- and I like Tallinder a lot and think he's our best defenseman.

 

If we're looking to create some room in our budget by unloading a forward, I think Grier, JP, Pyatt and Kotalik are much more likely candidates than Max to be shipped out. (Although I'd like to keep all of them).

 

Let's not be so quick to write Max off because he had a disappointing playoffs. He's had a lot of NHL games, but he's only 26. He had a great regular season, then in the playoffs he lost his playmaker when Connolly got hurt and the pressure also got to him a bit. But he'll do better in the playoffs next year. If he holds out and demands $3 million per year -- fine, get rid of him. But if we can sign him for $1.5 - $1.8 million -- to me it's a no-brainer.

 

Go Sabres.