Buffalo News article

[hopeleslyobvious]

Could someone with a scanner and a copy of this morning's news article scan in a copy of the chart with everyone's salary? Impossible to read the online version. Thanks!

[bob_sauve28]

Sorry, no scanner here. But that article sure makes the situation look bad. Brier, Miller, Campbell, Lydman, Talinder, Max and many others wanting and deserving more money. I think McKee and Greer are gone for sure. I can in no way see paying Teppo $2 million more to stay. I like him but its time to get some younger talent in there.

 

Do you think not trading Marty at the dealine was a mistake? Would have been nice to keep the other goalie for another year. Who will back up Miller next year?

[hopeleslyobvious]

Sorry, no scanner here. But that article sure makes the situation look bad. Brier, Miller, Campbell, Lydman, Talinder, Max and many others wanting and deserving more money. I think McKee and Greer are gone for sure. I can in no way see paying Teppo $2 million more to stay. I like him but its time to get some younger talent in there.

 

Do you think not trading Marty at the dealine was a mistake? Would have been nice to keep the other goalie for another year. Who will back up Miller next year?

 

I would imagine Leighton will back him up. I am not mad they kept Marty. Looking at the moves made on deadline day, I doubt he would have brought much in return.

[frisky]

From reading the articles and the responses by the management and TG, it sounds like they are reaffirming the way things are going to go this summer will be the same as they have before. Conservative on the budget means people are going to go and not much coming in return. Also, sounds like we aren't going to resign our RFA's and some trades will be made to keep the budget in line probably for draft picks or something. But at least they'll have shiny new uni's to play in.

[Bmwolf21]

From reading the articles and the responses by the management and TG, it sounds like they are reaffirming the way things are going to go this summer will be the same as they have before. Conservative on the budget means people are going to go and not much coming in return. Also, sounds like we aren't going to resign our RFA's and some trades will be made to keep the budget in line probably for draft picks or something. But at least they'll have shiny new uni's to play in.

I didn't take it that way at all - I think Darcy and TG are just using the media to get the message out to the players' agents (and fans) early- we want to keep the team together as much as possible, but no one is going to hit the lottery in negotiations, and that Sabres fans should be prepared to see some of the guys not return. I'd be surprised if a lot of the guys don't come back - it would send a bad message to both potential free agents and to the fans - "thanks for coming out & supporting the team last year, and we finally turned a profit, but we're not going to put any money back into the team - we'll need to keep catching lightning in a bottle with young, hungry (read: cheap) players." If they gut the team over money, and the new guys sputter out of the gate, TG & Darcy won't be able to give tickets away.

 

Realisitically I can see no Pyatt, no J.P., Max and no McKee next year (although I hope we can bring McKee back) and guys like Janik, Paetsch and Novotny getting their shot with the big club. If the team keeps scouting and developing well, we don't have to worry about turning over a couple players each year. Besides, new blood is always good for the locker room - guys competing for their jobs = no complacency = hungry players who work hard game in and game out.

[Stoner]

Anyone have a guess as to how much dough Goli is going to pony up for Darcy to work with? Golisano, sometime after buying the team, said that once revenues started increasing, he would increase the payroll. So for the sake of his credibility, it's going to have to be more than $29 million. But how much more?

 

I know I'm in the minority on this board (and I will never figure out why), but I just have a hard time understanding how a multi billionaire who has just gotten a taste of Stanley Cup fever does not make the commitment to not only keep this team together but improve it and take that run at a championship, a run you don't get a chance to take very often. I know, I know, it's his money and he has a right to make money, and he's a great businessman and on and on. I just don't get it. That's all. Then again, that's why Tom is a multi billionaire and I'm a multi hundredaire.

[nfreeman]

 

Anyone have a guess as to how much dough Goli is going to pony up for Darcy to work with? Golisano, sometime after buying the team, said that once revenues started increasing, he would increase the payroll. So for the sake of his credibility, it's going to have to be more than $29 million. But how much more?

 

 

 

I'd guess total payroll in the $32-$34 million range.

 

 

If they gut the team over money, and the new guys sputter out of the gate, TG & Darcy won't be able to give tickets away.

 

Realisitically I can see no Pyatt, no J.P., Max and no McKee next year (although I hope we can bring McKee back) and guys like Janik, Paetsch and Novotny getting their shot with the big club. If the team keeps scouting and developing well, we don't have to worry about turning over a couple players each year. Besides, new blood is always good for the locker room - guys competing for their jobs = no complacency = hungry players who work hard game in and game out.

 

 

I think we can expect them to approach this huge project logically -- ie figure out total payroll, figure out how much they can spend on each guy, figure out which guys they need to sign first, make adjustments as the process unfolds, etc. But the key fact is that they are NOT going to blow the budget. At the end of the process their payroll is going to be at or below their target. That is the only way this team will survive and stay in Buffalo -- so we should all be happy that they are being smart about it.

 

If they undertake this process and are unable to sign a number of their guys -- that is not, IMHO, "gutting the team over money". It's just living with reality.

 

I think you are right about Pyatt, JP and McKee -- not necessarily that they will be gone but that there is a strong possibility that any or all of them are gone. I would regrettably add Grier into that group as well. I will be surprised (but happy) if all of Grier, Pyatt and JP are back.

 

I think Max will be back though. He was our leading scorer last season, his game really stepped up a couple of notches, he's a very exciting player, and he's still restricted, so if we are unable to agree with him on numbers we can get arbitration.

 

Go Sabres.

[Taro T]

Anyone have a guess as to how much dough Goli is going to pony up for Darcy to work with? Golisano, sometime after buying the team, said that once revenues started increasing, he would increase the payroll. So for the sake of his credibility, it's going to have to be more than $29 million. But how much more?

 

I know I'm in the minority on this board (and I will never figure out why), but I just have a hard time understanding how a multi billionaire who has just gotten a taste of Stanley Cup fever does not make the commitment to not only keep this team together but improve it and take that run at a championship, a run you don't get a chance to take very often. I know, I know, it's his money and he has a right to make money, and he's a great businessman and on and on. I just don't get it. That's all. Then again, that's why Tom is a multi billionaire and I'm a multi hundredaire.

My gut feel is that the Sabres will try to have a payroll of ~$32MM on opening night. I am hoping for it to be more like $35MM but am not holding my breath.

 

The Sabres claim to have made ~$4.5MM and I saw Larry quoted a couple of weeks back as stating that the actual payroll (including payments to guys on IR) was about $31MM (not the $29MM quoted in The Snooze article). That would put pre-playoff net revenues (minus player salaries) at about $31.5 and total net revenues (again minus direct player payments) at ~$35.5MM. (No word on what sort of "bonuses" Tom and Larry gave themselves for making the playoffs, so I would actually expect net money including playoffs was more like $37MM.)

 

Regular season revenue will be up next year over this one as the team will have ~3,000 more season ticket holders and will see a commesurate jump in October and November attendance. (The Bills expected futility will likely increase attendance even more, but isn't included in this "back of the envelope" analysis. Increased merchandise sales due to B&G fever spreading through WNY isn't included either.) Those extra ticket sales (and concession sales) will translate into ~$2MM more in revenue (it could be more like an additional $4MM, but I'll stay conservative here, especially because there will be less "window" sales for games down the back stretch). The Sabres can also expect to make the playoffs next season, although it would be foolhardy to budget for anything more than 2 home games, so that gives them an additional $1MM to spend. This year's base payroll was ~$28MM but The Snooze is claiming $29MM. If we take the $29MM as the base and add the $3MM that we can expect revenues to increase by, then the Sabres payroll would be ~$32MM. This would also result in the Sabres starting out from a position of making about $2.5MM in profit minus whatever additional expenses are incurred due to injuries or upgrades via trades ($31.5MM net this year plus the $3MM minus $32MM in salaries.)

 

That assumes this past year's profits all go toward raises for existing staffers, cutting Tom's losses, and providing funds for injury callups for next season. Me, I would hope to see 1/2 of this year's profit get added to the base budget so the team would have a $34MM payroll next year, but as stated earlier, I'm not holding my breath.

 

Because of the team's financial situation, I am withholding judgement on how well Darcy has performed until we see how he does this off-season and how the team comes out of the gate. Right now, even if the team falters slightly, I think he has earned at least a B-. If he keeps the team intact then I will give him an A. But as of right now, the course is incomplete so no grades are forthcoming. I won't even hand out the grade after we know who the Sabres kept, lost, and gained (although there will be few, if any, in that category) because until we see how they perform on the ice we won't know how closely that team "on paper" resembles the "on ice" product.

[TM8-PL16]

I'm all for Tom G upping the payroll... but remember, he did lose about 17 million in the previous seasons... so even with a 4 million plus profit this year, he's still in the whole over 10 milion... I'm sure he thought he wouldn't be even on his investment for at least 5 years, and at this rate he will be even in about 4 years, but don't expect him to approach the salary cap until that happens... it's just not good business to do so.

 

to put in terms we can understand, if you were 17 thousand dollars in the hole and some one said, you will get around 4 thousand back each year over the next 4 years OR you can spend another 5-7 thousand each year and only get 3-5 thou back each year... which one would you do?

 

I'd love to see him spend like crazy and keep us all happy... I just don't think that will happen. I'm not happy about it, I'm just bracing myself for the reality... and then if I'm wrong, it will be that much better. A few of my favorite players probably won't be here next year and that sucks but that is reality now so we have to cheer for the jersey and not the player I guess... I love to do both, I get too attached. frustrating....

[Stoner]

I'm always amazed at how savvy fans have become about the business side of sports. It's not my cup of tea. I really don't care. Hockey is entertainment, not business. I don't know or care if Hollywood is making money these days -- I just know that "March of the Penguins" was an incredible film and I was entertained.

 

I'm also amazed that some fans seem to be more worried about the scratch than old Tom himself (not referring to any fan specifically). They seem to be more interested in wanting to keep the budget in line than wanting to see the Sabres win the Cup.

 

Here's my question. Instead of Tom telling Darcy what he has to work with, why not have Darcy tell Tom what it will take to win the Stanley Cup? Let's say Niles tells Tom he thinks he needs $37 million to do that. For the sake of argument, let's say that's $4 million more than Tom has offered. I'm not envisioning this scenario as a yearly event, by the way, but an almost once in a lifetime situation -- say the situation you find yourself in after coming within 18 minutes of having home ice in the finals.

 

What expectations should fans have about Tom's response? My expectation is that Tom pulls out the checkbook and starts scribbling. Then again, I live in the same fantasy world that the Dodge Fairy lives in, thinking a magic wand can make everything all pretty. Like her, I usually end up splattered against a wall.

[navybillsfan]

sum this up like this....

 

Sit back and see what happens.

 

Either we keep this team and add to it or watch the rest of the NHL build around us...

[TM8-PL16]

I'm with you PA, I wish it was that easy for Tom to do... but I don't think it will be. I can say "If I was the owner, I'd spend whatever I needed to in order to bring the Cup to Buffalo..."... but even still, it's not a guarentee that you will win the Cup. what if Darcy says "I need 37 million to win the Cup" and Tom says "If you get this, will we win the Cup for sure, no exceptions?"... All Darcy can say is "we'll have a great chance!" and Tom can say "Well, we had a great chance this year too for only 29 million... I say let's roll the dice at 33 million"...

 

NOW, we all know it's not that simple... but would you rather have your owner "sell out" for one year (possibly not even make it) and then have to try and make up for it (dump $$) for the next 5 if it doesn't work out? or would you rather have a sensible organization that wants to win, but not at the cost of screwing everything up for years to come? I have faith in the organization that they will give Ruff what he needs, I'm sure we'll be missing some guys we love, but we can love the "new" guys too.

 

like I said, he's still over $10 million in the hole, he's not going to risk going in another $10 million so soon. Like Darcy said in the article, you have to err on the side of caution.

 

again, I'm not trying to be negative, I want ALL our players back (except Rory, sorry I know you busted your a$$) but I'm trying to brace myself for the inevitable. If I tell myself all this "sensible" suff, it may not hurt as bad when I get the bad news....

[Stoner]

You're right. It's not that simple. There are a lot of ways to look at this situation. Number 1, winning a Stanley Cup, you would think, would be an incredible jackpot for ownership. Number 2, let's remember how fickle fans are. You don't keep this team together, don't add much if anything to it, and the team is deflated/hung over a bit to start the season, and they're five games under .500 in November... how much revenue is lost then? (On the other hand, you could have that $37 million payroll and still be under .500 -- as you said, there are no guarantees in sports. Still, if fans see an owner who is "going for it," they would be much more inclined to stick with the team. Hope sells. Or floats, or something.)

 

So tricky, this calculation. It's hard to argue with the math the Sabres did in 2005-06. It just seems to me that keeping the payroll low, turning over the lineup every year, ignores the impact that winning has on the bottom line. Didn't we just learn that lesson? Or was the lesson that you can be young and cheap and still win?

 

My head hurts.

[shrader]

I'm also amazed that some fans seem to be more worried about the scratch than old Tom himself (not referring to any fan specifically). They seem to be more interested in wanting to keep the budget in line than wanting to see the Sabres win the Cup.

 

But do you want to see them win the cup at the cost of losing the team forever? Welcome to the new world of professional sports, small market teams have to stay financially sound or else they'll fold.

 

As a fan, it's nice not having to think about this stuff, but those days are long gone now. This team is only a few years removed from death's door so that is going to remain on the minds of the fans for quite a while.

[Stoner]

Give me a Cup and move the team to Las Vegas. Deal? Or no deal?

 

An interesting side question here is how much is a Cup really worth to a franchise? Would you automatically sell out HSBC Arena for x seasons after winning it? How much merchandise would be sold? What is the tangible and intangible value of hooking a whole new generation of fans on the team for a couple of decades? How much more in advertising, corporate sponsorships and luxury seating do you bring in? What happens to TV ratings? Naming rights for the arena, etc.?

[shrader]

Give me a Cup and move the team to Las Vegas. Deal? Or no deal?

 

An interesting side question here is how much is a Cup really worth to a franchise? Would you automatically sell out HSBC Arena for x seasons after winning it? How much merchandise would be sold? What is the tangible and intangible value of hooking a whole new generation of fans on the team for a couple of decades? How much more in advertising, corporate sponsorships and luxury seating do you bring in? What happens to TV ratings? Naming rights for the arena, etc.?

 

I'd rather have a team for 20+ more years, but that's just me.

 

Obviously winning a cup brings in a lot of new revenue sources, but we have to remember that spending does not guarantee a cup. Do you risk it all to win now, or stick with the safe system that has shown signs of being successful? I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make these kind of choices.

[TM8-PL16]

I think you find a happy medium... don't stay at $29 million, but don't go overboard to $40+ million either. I think they can keep most of the team and maybe add one or two good teammates for under $35 million. I don't want to even think about how that would work, but I think it can be done, and I think that's whay they'll do. I'd rather see that than see what the Penguins did last year by signing some "name" guys for too much money and then lose, games and money, then be back where we started....

 

the key is don't overpay for players... I'd love to have Max in buffalo for a long time, but if someone throws 2.5+ million a year at him, he's gone and that's fine... that's too much, same with Kotalik, his number should be way less than Max's but someone may throw some money at him, if someone does, let that team make the mistake and throw money away. We can't have more than 2 or 3 guys getting paid over 2 million... we just can't. Unless we want to be the Penguins... and I don't want to be the Penguins. They have 5 guys they paid and the rest are crap (not crap but you know what I mean) and they may have the best player in the league. Imagine if they made good decisions with their money instead of throwing it at Gonchar, LeClair and Recchi last offseason? we need guys who know their role and work they butts off to show they belong. There are veterans like that out there...

[nfreeman]

 

Give me a Cup and move the team to Las Vegas. Deal? Or no deal?

 

 

PAFan -- you're not seriously asking this question, are you?

 

No deal.

 

If they move to vegas, what I am going to do with myself all winter?

[shrader]

No one is going to throw money at guys like Max or Kotalik. They're restricted free agents and the compensation is way too steep.

[Rayzor32]

"I would imagine Leighton will back him up. I am not mad they kept Marty. Looking at the moves made on deadline day, I doubt he would have brought much in return."

 

 

Well, according to Bucky Gleason (and some other sources), the Oilers were willing to part with Steve Staios for Marty, before they settled on trading for Roloson. Obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, that looks like a mistake on Darcy's behalf, if true...

 

I think we can nab a solid backup goalie at 33%-50% of Marty's salary -- certainly someone more capable than Leighton...and hopefully get a draft pick or defenseman in return for Biron in a "sign and trade" deal

 

Looking at the situation objectively, if we let McKee, Biron and either Grier/Pyatt go, we should be able to

re-sign everyone else, keep the team intact, and stay within Golisano's budget. McKee will likely command $2.5-$3 million, Biron makes $2.2 million, Grier will command about $1.5 and Pyatt $1.1 million. We can "find" another Lydman for half of McKee's likely salary, and if Pyatt continues to play like he did in the playoffs, he could potentially fit into Grier's role (emphasis on "potentially")

 

Without McKee and Fitzpatrick, our blueline could be:

 

Tallinder

Lydman

Numminen

Campbell

Kalinin

Free Agent Signing TBD and/or trade for Biron

Janik

 

Paetsch is still 1-2 years away, and Jillson is just a nightmare waiting to happen

 

As much as I'd love to keep McKee, I don't think he's worth 8-10% of our total payroll, and I don't think he'll settle for 5-7%

[Bmwolf21]

Here's my question. Instead of Tom telling Darcy what he has to work with, why not have Darcy tell Tom what it will take to win the Stanley Cup?

 

I'd bet that if TG is smart (and I think we can agree he is a smart businessman) then there is some sort of similar conversation that goes on between TG, Darcy, Quinn & someone from the business/finance side. I really don't see TG running some sort of George Steinbrenner/Daniel Snyder/Jerry Jones operation where he meddles in the hockey operations area - I think he will support Darcy & Quinn to a point, but will go about the business side with caution. I think there are still a lot of people (fans and local businesses) who are watching & waiting to see what kind of owner TG is goig to be - is he in it for the political capital, to be viewed as a hero to WNY; to turn a profit; or is he committed to putting a winning team on the ice each season?

 

I think we can nab a solid backup goalie at 33%-50% of Marty's salary -- certainly someone more capable than Leighton...and hopefully get a draft pick or defenseman in return for Biron in a "sign and trade" deal

 

 

Looking at the situation objectively, if we let McKee, Biron and either Grier/Pyatt go, we should be able to

re-sign everyone else, keep the team intact, and stay within Golisano's budget. McKee will likely command $2.5-$3 million, Biron makes $2.2 million, Grier will command about $1.5 and Pyatt $1.1 million. We can "find" another Lydman for half of McKee's likely salary, and if Pyatt continues to play like he did in the playoffs, he could potentially fit into Grier's role (emphasis on "potentially")

 

Without McKee and Fitzpatrick, our blueline could be:

 

Tallinder

Lydman

Numminen

Campbell

Kalinin

Free Agent Signing TBD and/or trade for Biron

Janik

 

Paetsch is still 1-2 years away, and Jillson is just a nightmare waiting to happen

I think 50% of Biron's salary for a backup is a little high - should we pay $1.1M for someone who is going to play 30 games? I think we should be able to get a veteran backup (not sure who is gong to be available) for around $750K.

 

I agree on McKee and Grier - I think Pyatt could step into Grier's role, but the question is whether he could take that role and excel in it - strong PK, good defensive line winger, pop in 10- 12 goals and maybe find some front of the net PP time. Personally I would rather keep Pyatt in Grier's role, but that's just me.

 

Finally, I think you're going to see Paetsch by the midway point of 2006-07 - I think he is that close, and if the injury bug strikes again, I think Lindy and/or Darcy will be less hesitant to call him up.

[Stoner]

PAFan -- you're not seriously asking this question, are you?

 

No deal.

 

If they move to vegas, what I am going to do with myself all winter?

 

Replay the Cup-clinching game over and over.

[Rayzor32]

For some reason I'm having trouble quoting from other posts, so I'll do it the old fashioned way:

 

"I think 50% of Biron's salary for a backup is a little high - should we pay $1.1M for someone who is going to play 30 games? I think we should be able to get a veteran backup (not sure who is gong to be available) for around $750K."

 

 

I agree that $1.1MM is too high for a backup. I believe the following is the list of potential UFA goalies -- hopefully we can sign one for less than $800,000 (and hopefully he'll play less than 30 games -- I'd be more comfortable with 20-25 tops with any of these jokers):

 

Mike Dunham

Brent Johnson

Brian Boucher

Martin Prusek

Johan Hedberg

Patrick LaLime

[Taro T]

I'm all for Tom G upping the payroll... but remember, he did lose about 17 million in the previous seasons... so even with a 4 million plus profit this year, he's still in the whole over 10 milion... I'm sure he thought he wouldn't be even on his investment for at least 5 years, and at this rate he will be even in about 4 years, but don't expect him to approach the salary cap until that happens... it's just not good business to do so.

 

to put in terms we can understand, if you were 17 thousand dollars in the hole and some one said, you will get around 4 thousand back each year over the next 4 years OR you can spend another 5-7 thousand each year and only get 3-5 thou back each year... which one would you do?

 

I'd love to see him spend like crazy and keep us all happy... I just don't think that will happen. I'm not happy about it, I'm just bracing myself for the reality... and then if I'm wrong, it will be that much better. A few of my favorite players probably won't be here next year and that sucks but that is reality now so we have to cheer for the jersey and not the player I guess... I love to do both, I get too attached. frustrating....

Yes, he did lose ~$17MM according to the papers, but he also is on record as stating when he bought the team that he expected to lose money initially and that he was buying the team as a community service (my words, not his exact words). He stated that he was not interested in making money off the team, but didn't want to lose money annually.

 

Based on what he was saying at the time the team was purchased, it sounded to me like he wasn't desperately looking to make that initial $10MM loss back immediately (if at all). I'd be surprised if he didn't try to make some of it back, but I would also be surprised if he "makes" the team earn his initial investment back w/or without interest.

 

If the league's fortunes continue to improve, and continuing to put an entertaining product on the ice will definitely help that, then the values of the teams will increase across the board, and Tom will have an opportunity to recoup his initial losses through the eventual sale of the team. Especially if this team can continue to be a "model" for how small market teams need to operate. He also is pulling in a salary that helps him recoup his investment as well. (Remember, in the early '90's Ralph Wilson cried that he only made about $3MM/yr on the Bills, but he forgot to mention that he and one of his daughters pulled $8MM/yr in salary. No idea what the value of perks they gave themselves were worth.)

 

Remember, if he keeps the payroll scraping the bottom of the salary band (if the cap is $42MM, it will be ~$25MM, if the cap is $46, it will be about $29MM), then as other teams figure out what the Sabres and Canes had guessed heading into the season it will become increasingly difficult to keep a competitive team on the ice. If the team long term cannot be successful, it will have lower revenues (due to being forced to keep ticket prices artificially low to match expectations and due to general apathy within the fan base). Continued lower revenue projections WILL lower the franchise value and long run will cost Tom far more than the $17MM he was out in years 1-1/2 and 2.

 

The Sabres need to keep a competitive team on the ice (and find a way to do it with revenues around the middle of the salary cap band) to keep net revenues around the midpoint of the salary cap band, so that salaries can stay near the midpoint of the salary band. (I don't think a successful team can be iced consistently if the player payroll is at the bottom of the band consistently.) Darcy Regier has an extremely difficult job, but he has to perform in order to make the whole thing work.

 

That's why it stinks so much that the team had all the injuries it did this post season. This was shaping up to be a magical season, which may be what the team will need to ever get over that hump and let us see the coolest parade Buffalo has ever seen.

[Bmwolf21]

I don't doubt the team lost money the last few years (this season excluded) but I never trust any of the figures the owners throw out there. As Dave pointed out, owners get salaries, perks, etc., which is never mentioned when talking about team revenues/expenses. Second, most teams use some fuzzy math in their accounting - shifting expenses, revenues, etc to sister companies in an attempt to hide or highlight profit & loss. You tend to see this when an NHL team is owned (or owns) a cable company - as an example, think of the Sabres & Empire Sports Network, before the Rigases started plundering Adelphia for personal gains.

 

Until owners start opening their books (which I think should be required if they are planning on using taxpayer money for arenas, etc., but that might be another thread altogether) I think we have to take all the talk about teams making/losing money with a grain of salt.

 

All that said, I really feel like TG got bitten by the Stanley Cup bug, and he is going to work with Darcy on continuing to put a competitive team on the ice, but he is going to do it in a way that makes sense for everyone involved, including himself, the Buffalo Sabres and WNY as a whole.