Figthing Words

[Taro T]

Again, I have no idea where to begin with all of your inaccuracies.

First off, let's get a few things straight.

RBC management estimated there were about 2,200 tickets bought by out of staters, presumably Buffalo fans, there were a lot of you but the place was not exactly overrun.

Second, the RBC center seats just under 19,000, or about 500 seats bigger than the HSBC.

As to your assertions regarding corporate welfare, well no argument there, but you can see the benefits to the area, which has one of the highest living standards in the country.

And whether your small minds want to accept it, the NHL is in Raleigh to stay.

The fanbase continues to grow and the team continues to get better.

Eric Staal, Cam Ward, Jack Johnson, Justin Williams, Erik Cole the foundation is set for success.

 

So many of you seem to live in denial and disbelief....is that why we aren't talking about your blue line?

 

The Goat

Actually, it seats 18,730 which is exactly 40 more seats than the Mmarena holds.

 

If there were 2,200 tickets bought by out of staters, I would estimate that there were about 5,000 Sabres fans, not the 4,000 I had previously estimated. (Remember, former WNYer's migrating to where their jobs go, very few of whom give up their loyalty to the WNY teams.)

 

I hope you are correct that the NHL is in Raleigh to stay.

 

Sorry X, I lied, THIS is my last post on the subject.

[The Goat]

Actually, it seats 18,730 which is exactly 40 more seats than the Mmarena holds.

 

If there were 2,200 tickets bought by out of staters, I would estimate that there were about 5,000 Sabres fans, not the 4,000 I had previously estimated. (Remember, former WNYer's migrating to where their jobs go, very few of whom give up their loyalty to the WNY teams.)

 

I hope you are correct that the NHL is in Raleigh to stay.

 

Sorry X, I lied, THIS is my last post on the subject.

 

I stand corrected. My attendance figures must have been for b-ball.

And you can estimate all you want but there were nowhere near 5,000 Sabres fans at that game.

 

The Goat

[X. Benedict]

 

RBC management estimated there were about 2,200 tickets bought by out of staters.

 

Interesting. I would estimate that at least 30-40% of the Buffalo fans there live in Carolina.

 

 

BTW, why are you "The Goat"?

[jad1]

Too sensitive?

Between the unexplained defense of the economy and social state of western New York and the over-the-top reaction to Raleigh columnists I think you've got the market cornered on sensitivity.

A question, if these guys are so ignorant why get so emotional about it?

As to being cheap, well I have already explained the niche the Canes have carved in the community here and further explained that $75 for a ticket in the rafters is beyond the financial bounds of most moms and dads and their kids who make up the majority of season ticket holders.

 

The Goat

 

Ah bullsh#t. Can't afford the tickets? If those two games were played in Winnepeg or Quebec, that house would have been sold out. And there would be no local fans of the opponent to bolster their ticket sales.

 

When you compare your fan base to Toronto, Edmonton, Buffalo, Montreal, Carolina is a huge step down.

 

Tickets will be scalped for tonight's game for $400-$800 dollars. Do you see Sabres fans whining about that on Canes boards, like you're whining about the ticket prices your owner is charging on our board?

 

As a fanbase, you guys don't want it enough. True hockey fans and communities waited two years, through the lockout, for these playoffs. And the thought that the Cup could go to a community that thought it was more important to take a stand against ticket prices instead of selling out their own house is a joke.

 

Moms, dads, and kids? Are you kidding me? This is the NHL, not Chuck E. Cheese.

[The Goat]

Ah bullsh#t. Can't afford the tickets? If those two games were played in Winnepeg or Quebec, that house would have been sold out. And there would be no local fans of the opponent to bolster their ticket sales.

 

When you compare your fan base to Toronto, Edmonton, Buffalo, Montreal, Carolina is a huge step down.

 

Tickets will be scalped for tonight's game for $400-$800 dollars. Do you see Sabres fans whining about that on Canes boards, like you're whining about the ticket prices your owner is charging on our board?

 

As a fanbase, you guys don't want it enough. True hockey fans and communities waited two years, through the lockout, for these playoffs. And the thought that the Cup could go to a community that thought it was more important to take a stand against ticket prices instead of selling out their own house is a joke.

 

Moms, dads, and kids? Are you kidding me? This is the NHL, not Chuck E. Cheese.

 

Jad,

 

You don't listen.

There is no stand against ticket prices. The people who wanted to buy them did, those that didn't want to buy them, didn't. It goes no further. There is no organized movement here to send a message about ticket prices to management.

The average NHL fanbase is not mom and dad and the kids - it is here, and I have discussed this ad nauseum.

And no one is whining, I am just relaying facts from my end.

There really is nothing to argue here.

As far as the fans "not wanting it enough" well I think you'll find plenty here who would disagree.

 

For future reference, read my previous posts before bothering me, and more importantly wasting space on this thread, with things already discussed.

 

So far you have proven yourself to be a pretty weak poster here. You spout off and don't listen to replies. I have answered all of your questions, and from your reactions I can only assume that you:

a) don't read them

b) don't want to hear what I have to say and would rather keep arguing in circles

c) are retarded.

 

So which is it?

 

The Goat

 

 

 

Interesting. I would estimate that at least 30-40% of the Buffalo fans there live in Carolina.

BTW, why are you "The Goat"?

 

I figured "The Goat" was an appropriate name being a Canes fan visiting Sabre territory. Nothing to do with the Sabre logo.

 

The Goat

[jad1]

Jad,

 

You don't listen.

There is no stand against ticket prices. The people who wanted to buy them did, those that didn't want to buy them, didn't. It goes no further. There is no organized movement here to send a message about ticket prices to management.

The average NHL fanbase is not mom and dad and the kids - it is here, and I have discussed this ad nauseum.

And no one is whining, I am just relaying facts from my end.

There really is nothing to argue here.

As far as the fans "not wanting it enough" well I think you'll find plenty here who would disagree.

 

For future reference, read my previous posts before bothering me, and more importantly wasting space on this thread, with things already discussed.

 

So far you have proven yourself to be a pretty weak poster here. You spout off and don't listen to replies. I have answered all of your questions, and from your reactions I can only assume that you:

a) don't read them

b) don't want to hear what I have to say and would rather keep arguing in circles

c) are retarded.

 

So which is it?

 

 

My argument from my first post to this one is that the Caniacs are posers. You're problem is that you won't accept the fact that real fans sell out playoff games.

 

You want it both ways. You say the Caniacs are great fans, but make ridiculous excuses for the reasons why they haven't showed up for the playoffs. And ticket cost is an especially weak excuse when you're playing a team that sold out its games in 12 minutes; had legions of fans traveling to Raleigh to pay the same ticket cost that Canes fans refused to pay (plus transportation and loging), and are paying scalped ticket rates of $400-$800.

 

Nothing in your posts has changed my mind, in fact they've proven my point. Families looking for cheap weekend entertainment are not die hard fans.

 

I've read your posts and find them unconvincing (except the one that you said you loved me). As long as you continue to post unsubstantiated rubish I will respond. If that bothers you, I really don't care.

[sargenthulka]

Spare me! If the Sabres had been owned by Peter Karmanos, they might well be the Carolina Sabres if the Whalers, excuse me, I mean the Canes greedy carpetbagger owner hadn't already moved a perfectly profitable franchise out of Hartford.

[X. Benedict]

My argument from my first post to this one is that the Caniacs are posers. You're problem is that you won't accept the fact that real fans sell out playoff games.

 

You want it both ways. You say the Caniacs are great fans, but make ridiculous excuses for the reasons why they haven't showed up for the playoffs. And ticket cost is an especially weak excuse when you're playing a team that sold out its games in 12 minutes; had legions of fans traveling to Raleigh to pay the same ticket cost that Canes fans refused to pay (plus transportation and loging), and are paying scalped ticket rates of $400-$800.

 

Nothing in your posts have changed my mind, in fact they've proven my point. Families looking for cheap weekend entertainment are not die hard fans.

 

I've read your posts and find them unconvincing (except the one that you said you loved me). As long as you continue to post unsubstantiated rubish I will respond. If that bothers you, I really don't care.

I talked to enough Carolina fans to know that their anger wasn't feigned.

They were pissed. Even the ones that bought tickets were pissed.

If they tried to do the same stuff in Buffalo - Buffalo fans would be upset.

They came at it from different angles in my opinion - the Buffalo

STH have never had it so good - for the Carolina fans holding the ST was not

an advantage for the playoffs - you had to buy back your Season seats in block-

at playoff prices- or someone else could buy them.

 

They should have a bad taste in their mouths. Management down there took

a grade A, I have been camping for a week, dump on their best fans.

Some said screw it. The fans that bought the playoff tickets still love their team-

but still felt they were grabbing their ankles. They were angry.

I wouldn't be able to come up with the money for 16 seats at a 200% markup

for a family of 4 for a 4 home games in a 7 game series with a weeks notice. Who the hell budgets for that?

 

Raleigh may be more affluent, but that is still a lot of money for people waiting for a tax return.

[jad1]

I talked to enough Carolina fans to know that their anger wasn't feigned.

They were pissed. Even the ones that bought tickets were pissed.

If they tried to do the same stuff in Buffalo - Buffalo fans would be upset.

They came at it from different angles in my opinion - the Buffalo

STH have never had it so good - for the Carolina fans holding the ST was not

an advantage for the playoffs - you had to buy back your Season seats in block-

at playoff prices- or someone else could buy them.

 

They should have a bad taste in their mouths. Management down there took

a grade A, I have been camping for a week, dump on their best fans.

Some said screw it. The fans that bought the playoff tickets still love their team-

but still felt they were grabbing their ankles. They were angry.

I wouldn't be able to come up with the money for 16 seats at a 200% markup

for a family of 4 for a 4 home games in a 7 game series with a weeks notice. Who the hell budgets for that?

 

Raleigh may be more affluent, but that is still a lot of money for people waiting for a tax return.

 

And the Sabres front office has reserved playoff tickets, at the inflated price, for Sabres fans who put a deposit on next year's season tickets. Right? So there are Sabres fans who are not just spending the cash for playoff prices, but also have to drop a deposit for next season. And they're doing it.

 

This isn't only on season ticket holders. If they can't afford the block, fine, but are there no non-STHs who would step in and pay to see an ECF game? It seems to me that the Canes have a shallow pool of fans.

[X. Benedict]

 

This isn't only on season ticket holders. If they can't afford the block, fine, but are there no non-STHs who would step in and pay to see an ECF game? It seems to me that the Canes have a shallow pool of fans.

No, it is not as deep, and they screwed their core fans.

 

But anytime I hear that an area doesn't deserve a franchise I think of Bob McAdoo for two.

Really, I will always be Sabres first, but I hate to see any hockey fan get screwed.

 

Have you ever been out of town and you can't pick up a Stanley Cup game because nobody is interested? Or the cable doesn't carry it? Hockey Fans in the world make up a strange fraternity:

I have been able to talk about the Montreal forecheck to a Swede in Thailand - and have done shots with Fins that have known Hannu Virta in Bali. During this series I have had emails from all over the world.

 

If Buffalo and Ottawa had lost their teams a few years ago because of insolvency it would have ripped the hearts out of people. I know we are into playoff barbs, but, God, losing the Bills because we don't sell corporate suites, or even losing the Sabres was very possible two years ago.

 

If you ever talk to a Jets, Whaler, or Nord fan you would hate for Sabre to finish the sentence.

I would never wish it on anybody.

[ExiledInIllinois]

No, it is not as deep, and they screwed their core fans.

 

But anytime I hear that an area doesn't deserve a franchise I think of Bob McAdoo for two.

Really, I will always be Sabres first, but I hate to see any hockey fan get screwed.

 

Have you ever been out of town and you can't pick up a Stanley Cup game because nobody is interested? Or the cable doesn't carry it? Hockey Fans in the world make up a strange fraternity:

I have been able to talk about the Montreal forecheck to a Swede in Thailand - and have done shots with Fins that have known Hannu Virta in Bali. During this series I have had emails from all over the world.

 

If Buffalo and Ottawa had lost their teams a few years ago because of insolvency it would have ripped the hearts out of people. I know we are into playoff barbs, but, God, losing the Bills because we don't sell corporate suites, or even losing the Sabres was very possible two years ago.

 

If you ever talk to a Jets, Whaler, or Nord fan you would hate for Sabre to finish the sentence.

I would never wish it on anybody.

 

So why protect Carolina fans when they are NOT viable come playoffs?... They deserve what they got, karma is a b*tch... Hartford was robbed of their franchise...

 

Granted they deserve a franchise... But, it doesn't seem viable there and at this level (playoff hockey, especially on weekends with a large core fan base being kids and family)... I still contend that 'Canes management didn't ask too much... Heck I talked to my wife's friend that attended the Blackhawks finals way back in 1971 (and 1973)... He said they were getting 20-30 bucks a ticket... And the Caniacs want to spend 60 bucks today... Get a grip! Heck, back in '71... He said they were getting 5 bucks a head to watch it on closed circuit TV!

 

Spending 100-200 bucks for the big leagues doesn't sound like much... Now if you are toting two kids, forget about it... Why should they get a "mulligan?"

 

It is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole come playoff time down there... Why even try.

 

Sounds like the wrong area... Why even try... Pack up and move to a more worthy area where you don't have to hear the pissing and moaning...

 

Is management clueless or are they testing their fan base... Totally marketed wrong for the big leagues in that area (I know it doesn't seem fair or right... But it is, plain and simple)

 

Time to throw the idealist crap out the window... Simply not selling out for management at TODAY'S DOLLARS...

[X. Benedict]

So why protect Carolina fans when they are NOT viable come playoffs?... They deserve what they got, karma is a b*tch... Hartford was robbed of their franchise...

 

Ouch. I have to defend Carolina again. The point is that they were viable. Management - and an evil management at that - screwed their core fans - perhaps like they screwed the Hartford fans.

But the fans got the hind tit - and management took the short money.

Maybe a Canes fan could explain it better - but they forced fans to buy tickets for games that might not happen without refund, but credit for unplayed games.

You couldn't keep your season seats for select games unless you bought the entire package.

If the Carolina fans had the same options as the Buffalo season ticket holders I am pretty sure we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Larry Quinn and Tom Gollisano have been a real blessing for Buffalo.

I'll leave it at that.

[topshelfcookies]

I was listening to an interview yesterday on 103.3's morning show. Shredd and Regan were interviewing a woman from Buffalo, who now works for the Observer newspaper down in Carolina.

 

She stated that the atmosphere that Canes games have taken on, is more comparable to that of Bisons games. While the arena can get loud, it's perfectly acceptable to bring little kids and go as a family. She stated that part of the friction that ensued from the rowdy Buffalo fans showing up and boozing and whooping it up, was...what would your reaction be if you walked in to Dunn Tire Park, and there were a couple thousand Richmond Braves fans there, drunk, cursing and going craz?

 

It's not a fair argument to say that Carolina should be "blamed" for "allowing" the atmosphere inside the RBC arena to be family friendly. I think it's cool, if anything. Carolina fans should be commended for being respectful enough that others feel comfortable bringing their wives and kids. In places that aren't in traditional hockey country, the NHL needs to find a way to reach young fans. If there a lots of kids attending Canes games while they're 5, 6, 7...12, 16, 18, guess what? That's an awful lot of purchasing power by the time that those kids are able to buy tickets themselves.

 

I'm not trying to do is criticize that apparently the atmosphere in Raliegh for the NHL playoffs is comparable to a AAA baseball game. The atmosphere is what it is. Whether a team hands out Beanie Babies at every game or is as hyped up and crazy as the arenas in Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Philly and Buffalo it doesn't matter. From what I can tell, the Triangle region is coming to really embrace the Hurricanes franchise, and the fact that "The Goat" feels they will be in Carolina for a long time is a GREAT thing for the league.

 

For the NHL to have a sustainable, successfull franchise in one of the fastest growing, and highest-net income areas of North America is a great thing.

 

Move the team to Winnipeg? Yeah, because that's really going to help grow the NHL, get them back on ESPN and get a decent TV deal.

[jad1]

 

For the NHL to have a sustainable, successfull franchise in one of the fastest growing, and highest-net income areas of North America is a great thing.

 

Move the team to Winnipeg? Yeah, because that's really going to help grow the NHL, get them back on ESPN and get a decent TV deal.

 

And Carolina sitting there with 3 or 4 thousand empty seats for the ECF would get them back on ESPN? If their own fans won't juice up their credit card to watch the playoffs, why should anyone in the national market care about them.

 

I'm just not sold on this whole 'new market' thing. Are Carolina, Miami, or Tampa, half as good as markets as Edmonton, Calgary, or Vancouver? Each of those new-market teams have played in the SC final, yet the atmosphere is still AA baseball.

 

Just having a team in Carolina isn't going to sell the sport to the national audience. However, the NHL could definitely sell the energy and passion that markets like Edmonton bring to the game .

 

Imagine an NHL marketing campaign like the old NBA-I Love this Game campaing. Fans in Edmonton going nuts; fans in Buffalo shaking the glass; Fans in San Jose; face-painted and cheering, along with highlights of big goals, big saves, and big hits. Don't think Winnepeg, the inventors of the white-out could help the NHL sell that passion for the game to a national audience?

 

Let's not dismiss the small markets out-of-hand. The Packers do more to sell the NFL to the national market than the Bucs do, and it's completely due to the dedication of their die-hard fans. After all, what has the Coyotes done to sell the NHL on a national level? The NHL dumped the Winnipeg fans for Phoenix fans? It doesn't seem right.

[X. Benedict]

 

Let's not dismiss the small markets out-of-hand. The Packers do more to sell the NFL to the national market than the Bucs do, and it's completely due to the dedication of their die-hard fans. After all, what has the Coyotes done to sell the NHL on a national level? The NHL dumped the Winnipeg fans for Phoenix fans? It doesn't seem right.

Good post.

I loathe the idea that these franchises are free agent opportunists.

 

But consider Toronto in baseball, I used to go up there and many of the fans would cheer a sacrifice fly by the visiting team. It took some time, but Toronto has turned into a good solid baseball market.

Some things take time.

[jad1]

Good post.

I loathe the idea that these franchises are free agent opportunists.

 

But consider Toronto in baseball, I used to go up there and many of the fans would cheer a sacrifice fly by the visiting team. It took some time, but Toronto has turned into a good solid baseball market.

Some things take time.

 

Sure, we'll see. Financially, the NHL is on much better footing with the new CBA than they have been over the last 15 years. Hopefully the league will remain viable while these new markets are maturing.

 

But in the here and now, I know I might be prejudiced, but I'd much rather see the cup go to an older, smaller market with a rabid fan base than one of these larger, newer markets. :D

[X. Benedict]

Sure, we'll see. Financially, the NHL is on much better footing with the new CBA than they have been over the last 15 years. Hopefully the league will remain viable while these new markets are maturing.

 

But in the here and now, I know I might be prejudiced, but I'd much rather see the cup go to an older, smaller market with a rabid fan base than one of these larger, newer markets. :D

Oh me too. But the cup isn't going to one of these newer markets. :D

[ExiledInIllinois]

Oh me too. But the cup isn't going to one of these newer markets. :D

 

I agree with Jad to a tee.

 

It is about QUALITY than quantity with me.

 

You can't fit a square peg into a round hole nicely... Not that you can't try and forceably round the peg off... Well, you can... IMO, I believe this what the league is doing in Raleigh.

 

And don't say they won't get the Cup... Tampa did in 2004 and Dallas in 1999... Maybe rightfully so (in Tampa's case... :D :D ).

 

I just don't trust the league to keep it "clean" in a seven game series... They would like to "push" the outcome to a new market, IMO... Sorry with the conspiracy crap... It will always leave me in doubt...

 

So... As long as their is a Canadian team in the Cup finals... The Canadian team will always trump the new market.

 

That is why I am rooting for a fair series between EDM-BUFF... I guess we will see???

 

Another note, LA is probably one of the newer (dating back to the expansion Kings, pre-Sabres) hockey markets that is hip to hockey packing them in... Maybe it is the Frank Zamboni/LA connection... ;) ;)

 

Again... Take this for what it is worth... Just me ranting, not trying to get on anybody's nerves (especially the dear ones we call "Caniacs")... :D :D