Miller vs. Ward

[The Goat]

Nice to have you here and all, but with all due respect, if you really believe that Jersey is tougher than Ottawa, you should be wearing one of those paper hockey helmets they handed out to Flyer fans.

 

No Stevens. No Niedemeyer. No Danekyo. No comparison to Chara, Redden, and Phillips.

 

NJ doesn't have anyone as good as Spezza at forward, much less Havlet, Alfredsson, and Heatley.

 

Outside of the great streak they finished on, NJ was a very mediocre club this year.

 

And for a team who couldn't catch the Senators for the #1 seed (ahem, 4-0 season finale thanks to you-know-who), you sure don't show them much respect.

 

The Sabres beat the 1 and 4 seeds, the Hurricanes beat the 3 and 7 seeds. And the Sabres will be the best team the Hurricanes will be facing in the playoffs, point-wise.

 

We're going to have a lot to talk about this series, so let's not start it off with ridiculous statements like NJ is better than Ottawa.

 

No I don't show the Senators much respect and I am wondering why so many of you find it reasonable to make the case for a team with no successes on its resume outside of the regular season.

The first 82 games are not the problem here, it's those last 16 wins I am most concerned about when evaluating success.

And to your point about New Jersey being a mediocre team?

Uhh...a 101 point season and win streaks of nine and 15 games is mediocre? So what does that make Buffalo and Carolina's seasons? Above average?

You guys are making some good points about New Jersey but in the process you are ignoring one simple fact: they have players in their lineup who have proven themselves when it matters most and won cups.

Aside from the undying love of Leaf fans Ottawa has won nothing of consequence.

It's funny that so many of the Ottawa players you mention played so poorly throughout the playoffs, not just against Buffalo.

Chara, was invisible.

Philips, that's a stretch. The guy is a solid top four defender nothing more. Why don't you just start touting the fantastic two-way play of Chris Kelly while you're at it?

Spezza, the guy is a defensive nightmare and the Sabres capatilzed on it as well as anyone.

Heatly (see Chara evaluation above)

Alfredsson, plays hard but couldn't capatilize on his chances.

Argue all you want about Ottawa and how great they are.

But there are no less than five other Eastern Conference teams I'd put my money on in the postseason before them and New Jersey is certainly one of them.

 

The Goat

[BetweenThePipes00]

Goat, I think the point is that you keep pointing to tradition and history when talking about NJ and Montreal ... and really Ottawa and Philly too because they have not fared well in the postseason of late ... which is fine except if that meant anything NEITHER THE SABRES NOR CANES WOULD BE HERE! Both missed the playoffs in 03-04, so does that mean it is a stunning upset they are here? No, they were right there all year.

 

You can't have it both ways ... you can't say "It's a new year, Canes are great!" and then ignore the present and say New Jersey and Montreal are also great because of their tradition. New Jersey is NOT the same team that won Stanley Cups, it's just not. Ottawa and Philly proved they were better than NJ and Montreal over 82 games.

 

I'm not saying the Sabres are better because they beat Ottawa ... as far as I am concerned, there is no difference between the Sens, Canes and Sabres ... they all won 52 games in the regular season. You guys got credit for losing a couple games later, but in the end they were still losses. The Sabres proved to be a little better than Ottawa, and now we will find out who is best in the East.

[X. Benedict]

No I don't show the Senators much respect and I am wondering why so many of you find it reasonable to make the case for a team with no successes on its resume outside of the regular season.

The first 82 games are not the problem here, it's those last 16 wins I am most concerned about when evaluating success.

And to your point about New Jersey being a mediocre team?

Uhh...a 101 point season and win streaks of nine and 15 games is mediocre? So what does that make Buffalo and Carolina's seasons? Above average?

You guys are making some good points about New Jersey but in the process you are ignoring one simple fact: they have players in their lineup who have proven themselves when it matters most and won cups.

Aside from the undying love of Leaf fans Ottawa has won nothing of consequence.

It's funny that so many of the Ottawa players you mention played so poorly throughout the playoffs, not just against Buffalo.

Chara, was invisible.

Philips, that's a stretch. The guy is a solid top four defender nothing more. Why don't you just start touting the fantastic two-way play of Chris Kelly while you're at it?

Spezza, the guy is a defensive nightmare and the Sabres capatilzed on it as well as anyone.

Heatly (see Chara evaluation above)

Alfredsson, plays hard but couldn't capatilize on his chances.

Argue all you want about Ottawa and how great they are.

But there are no less than five other Eastern Conference teams I'd put my money on in the postseason before them and New Jersey is certainly one of them.

 

The Goat

 

The implication seems to be that Ottawa beat themselves. That's okay. I am hoping everyone in Carolina thinks the same thing.

[nfreeman]

Mr. Goat -- You are awfully knowledgeable about hockey for a North Carolinian. Are you a Canadian/Northern US transplant, perhaps? (not that I have anything against NC -- I went to college there and I am there frequently for work and really like it).

 

In any case, notwithstanding the comments above, I do respect the hell out of Carolina and am quite concerned about this series. The Hurricanes are so much like the Sabres it's scary. I'll disagree with your point above about NJ being tougher than Ottawa, but you make some reasonable points.

 

In the end I think this series will come down to goaltending and possibly coaching (strategy, not motivation, as I think both teams are intensely and equally motivated). I like our chances with Miller, but it's certainly possible that he goes into a funk and Ward stays in the zone (or vice-versa). Otherwise the 2 teams are pretty evenly matched.

 

Go Sabres.

[jad1]

No I don't show the Senators much respect and I am wondering why so many of you find it reasonable to make the case for a team with no successes on its resume outside of the regular season.

The first 82 games are not the problem here, it's those last 16 wins I am most concerned about when evaluating success.

And to your point about New Jersey being a mediocre team?

Uhh...a 101 point season and win streaks of nine and 15 games is mediocre? So what does that make Buffalo and Carolina's seasons? Above average?

You guys are making some good points about New Jersey but in the process you are ignoring one simple fact: they have players in their lineup who have proven themselves when it matters most and won cups.

Aside from the undying love of Leaf fans Ottawa has won nothing of consequence.

It's funny that so many of the Ottawa players you mention played so poorly throughout the playoffs, not just against Buffalo.

Chara, was invisible.

Philips, that's a stretch. The guy is a solid top four defender nothing more. Why don't you just start touting the fantastic two-way play of Chris Kelly while you're at it?

Spezza, the guy is a defensive nightmare and the Sabres capatilzed on it as well as anyone.

Heatly (see Chara evaluation above)

Alfredsson, plays hard but couldn't capatilize on his chances.

Argue all you want about Ottawa and how great they are.

But there are no less than five other Eastern Conference teams I'd put my money on in the postseason before them and New Jersey is certainly one of them.

 

The Goat

 

So NJ 101 points is better than Ottawa's 113?

 

So Carolina gets all the credit in the world for beating the 2003 Cup champions. But Ottawa sucks even though they beat the DEFENDING Stanley Cup champions? :blink: The players I mentioned all had a good series against the Lightning. Their power play was at 37% in that series.

 

You've completely glossed over the fact that NJ is missing THREE key defensemen from their last cup run. Two of those players had their jerseys retired by the team. The other guy is backlining Anaheim to the West Finals. And even with those players, they were knocked out of the '04 playoffs in the first round 4-1 by the Flyers.

 

The Devils are a shell of their last Cup championship team. They're a one-line time with an aging goaltender and a shakey defense who caught fire in a sinking division. They didn't deserve the third seed based on point totals, but used it to destroy a Rangers team minus Jagr.

 

The Devils didn't stand a chance in playoffs, period. Their lack of overall team speed, inexperience on defense, and lack of balanced scoring would have been exposed by the Canes, Sabres, OR Senators.

 

To sit there and believe that just because they had some kind of magic pass to the finals because they have guys who won the Cup three years ago is naive, to say the least. Especially since the final four this year all missed the playoffs in '04.

[The Goat]

Goat, I think the point is that you keep pointing to tradition and history when talking about NJ and Montreal ... and really Ottawa and Philly too because they have not fared well in the postseason of late ... which is fine except if that meant anything NEITHER THE SABRES NOR CANES WOULD BE HERE! Both missed the playoffs in 03-04, so does that mean it is a stunning upset they are here? No, they were right there all year.

 

You can't have it both ways ... you can't say "It's a new year, Canes are great!" and then ignore the present and say New Jersey and Montreal are also great because of their tradition. New Jersey is NOT the same team that won Stanley Cups, it's just not. Ottawa and Philly proved they were better than NJ and Montreal over 82 games.

 

I'm not saying the Sabres are better because they beat Ottawa ... as far as I am concerned, there is no difference between the Sens, Canes and Sabres ... they all won 52 games in the regular season. You guys got credit for losing a couple games later, but in the end they were still losses. The Sabres proved to be a little better than Ottawa, and now we will find out who is best in the East.

 

 

Good point but you're refuting a point that I am not making.

 

I am not advocating a winning traditon. I am advocating winning players. New Jersey has them in bulk, Ottawa does not.

 

My assessment of New Jersey is based very much on the present. In assessing Montreal I called them a solid team with a winning tradition, nothing more, nothing less.

As far as Jersey goes I'll state my case again.

Ottawa = a team with no post season success and players who have very little in their background. (This is a fact, with no contradicting evidence.)

As you have pointed out Jersey is not the same team that won the cups. But the fact that Neidermeyer and Stevens are gone does not change the fact that this is a team composed largely of players who know what it takes to win ie. Madden, Rafalski, Gomez, Pandolofo, White, Matvichuk and Brodeur.

These are the same players who led this team to 101 point record and have rings on their fingers.

Playoff experience is vitally important. And while strong regular seasons are nice, in the end, they don't count for much. See Dale Hawerchuk, Darryl Sittler. On the other side of the spectrum there are guys who lived in mediocrity in the regular season and found immortality in the postseason (see Claude Lemieux).

What, aside from a solid regular season has Ottawa accomplished that makes them a better playoff team?

There is nothing working in Ottawa's favor in this argument.

That is all from my end.

 

The Goat

[sabregoats]

The 2005-06 senators were heads and shoulders above the 2005-06 devils PERIOD. There is no debate, without Jersey's final winning streak they would have been golfing with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Also 6 of those 11 games were against opponents from the pathetic Atlantic Division. They may have been seeded third but they were really the fifth place team. Their first round was a joke, playing unarguably the worst team to make the playoffs, in the Rangers. So as much as you would like to believe that this year's Devils were the team to beat, they simply were not. Like all of the final eight NJ was a good team but they are not the Ottawa Senators nor are they the Buffal Sabres. The fact of the matter is however, the best two teams in the east are left and it doesnt really matter how good their opponents were. It should hopefully be a great and a close series, between the two best teams in the east.

[The Goat]

Mr. Goat -- You are awfully knowledgeable about hockey for a North Carolinian. Are you a Canadian/Northern US transplant, perhaps? (not that I have anything against NC -- I went to college there and I am there frequently for work and really like it).

 

In any case, notwithstanding the comments above, I do respect the hell out of Carolina and am quite concerned about this series. The Hurricanes are so much like the Sabres it's scary. I'll disagree with your point above about NJ being tougher than Ottawa, but you make some reasonable points.

 

In the end I think this series will come down to goaltending and possibly coaching (strategy, not motivation, as I think both teams are intensely and equally motivated). I like our chances with Miller, but it's certainly possible that he goes into a funk and Ward stays in the zone (or vice-versa). Otherwise the 2 teams are pretty evenly matched.

 

Go Sabres.

 

Freeman,

 

No team in the Eastern Conference scared me more than Buffalo going into the playoffs. I stand by that assessment.

In regard to your comment on my post, I am not saying the Ottawa series was an easy win for the Sabres. To the contrary, three overtime wins shows great heart and tenacity.

But there were a few people who posted on this and other threads who stated that beating Jersey was no big deal.

I happen to disagree - intensely.

I know that many on this board want to get a good hate-on for the Canes and their fans.

We don't know hockey. We don't deserve a team. We all wave Confederate flags and have gun racks on our pickup trucks etc..

But the fact is that most of you know that this stuff is not true.

Many of us do know our hockey, we do support our team and we put the gun racks away years ago in favor of a .357 in the glove compartment :)

 

You guys have paid your dues as fans up there - especially in '99, Hull's foot should be amputated. I hate to take away the fun from those who want to get the bad blood going as I've been there before. This time around I am content to sit back, watch and enjoy without popping the blood vessels in my eye.

That said, I'll be at Game 1, tailgating, getting a nice swerve on, and then yelling my head off.

 

The Goat

[The Goat]

Would that be for some of the same reasons that the Wile E. Coyote Supragenius Don Waddell chose Robert Esche (or retch, for short) over Ryan Miller? Just asking. ;)

 

Agreed, it could be one heck of a series.

 

Just making the point that Laviolette is a good coach in his own right.

 

But bringing Esche into the conversation? Well, touch? sir, touch?. :)

 

The Goat

[hopeleslyobvious]

Good point but you're refuting a point that I am not making.

 

I am not advocating a winning traditon. I am advocating winning players. New Jersey has them in bulk, Ottawa does not.

 

My assessment of New Jersey is based very much on the present. In assessing Montreal I called them a solid team with a winning tradition, nothing more, nothing less.

As far as Jersey goes I'll state my case again.

Ottawa = a team with no post season success and players who have very little in their background. (This is a fact, with no contradicting evidence.)

As you have pointed out Jersey is not the same team that won the cups. But the fact that Neidermeyer and Stevens are gone does not change the fact that this is a team composed largely of players who know what it takes to win ie. Madden, Rafalski, Gomez, Pandolofo, White, Matvichuk and Brodeur.

These are the same players who led this team to 101 point record and have rings on their fingers.

Playoff experience is vitally important. And while strong regular seasons are nice, in the end, they don't count for much. See Dale Hawerchuk, Darryl Sittler. On the other side of the spectrum there are guys who lived in mediocrity in the regular season and found immortality in the postseason (see Claude Lemieux).

What, aside from a solid regular season has Ottawa accomplished that makes them a better playoff team?

There is nothing working in Ottawa's favor in this argument.

That is all from my end.

 

The Goat

 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. Things have drasticly changed since NJ won their cups. For starters, they lost 3 key defenseman. They lost their 3 best players AT THE SAME POSITION. To put it another way, half their defensive corps was no longer there. In addition to that, one of those was their captain. A team is definately more than just the sum of it's parts, and some teams can lose one or two key guys and still be fine. But if the leadership of the team is no longer there, it will have a huge effect.

 

So what kind of effect does losing half your defensive corps have? For a team that plays a defensive system, it makes quite a difference. It causes you to give up a lot more goals. Sure some of that can be attributed to the new NHL. But, for comparison's sake only, take a look at where Martin Brodeur ranked in GAA and Save Percentage in 2003-2004 and 2005-2006.

 

Again, I would like to point out the fact that NJ is a defensive minded team. They would build a small lead and sit on it. In addition to losing half of their defensive corps, the obstruction crackdown makes it a lot tougher to clutch and grab your way to a one goal victory. Players were called on to come up with a clutch goal a lot more than they had in prior years.

 

To avoid rambling, I am going to comment on the 101 points. Yes, NJ had 101 points this year and won the Atlantic division, but the Atlantic was arguably the weakest division in the East. Considering they had 3 teams with 100+ points, the average points for the Atlantic was 87.6. Compare that to 96 for the Northeast, and 89.8 for the Southeast. The Devils had 8 games against Pittsburgh, and 8 against the Islanders. If you don't buy the weak division argument, go ask the Red Wings, or the Predators. With 8 games against each division opponent, it can definately skew the standings.

 

Also, consider the first round opponent of the Devils. The Rangers had a good year. But Lundqvist was not 100%, and Jagr was probably at about 25%. Take those 2 away, and the Rangers are sunk.

 

Just because a team was successful in the past, doesn't make them a successful team.

[deluca67]

Interesting point about the coaching but I have a two word rebuttal for you: John Tortorella.

How much playoff coaching experience did he have before he reached and won his first Stanley Cup? Exactly one year, during which his team exited in the second round. Paul Maurice, Marc Crawford, Larry Robinson and even Lindy Ruff are all examples of relatively inexperienced coaches whose teams made the finals, if not won.

Lindy Ruff is a fine coach but Peter Laviolette was chosen to head the US Olympic team for a reason.

Also, to your point about the New Jersey offense, while New Jersey is clearly the inferior offensive team compared to Ottawa it's worth noting that they are indeed more than just one line.

Patrick Elias, Brian Gionta, Scott Gomez, John Madden and Jamie Langenbrunner are all proven playoff performers, including scoring. More importantly, these guys, along with Brodeur, Pandolfo, Rafalski, White and Matvichuk (and a couple others I can't remember right now) all have Stanley Cup rings. They know how to win. How many Senators have cup rings?

Let me put it this way, who would you rather play, Jason Spezza, Ray Emery et. all or John Madden, Martin Brodeur and company?

If we are going to start diminishing the achievements of the Canes in this year's playoffs I think we'd better look at the Sabres.

So far the Sabres have beat a team that is a perenial playoff flop and another that is a slow dinosaur of a team that has no less than 14 players undergoing surgery thanks to injuries they tried to play through.

The Canes have beat a team that has won three Cups in the last decade and the winningest franchise in the history of the game.

In the end none of this matters. This will likely be a series for the ages. It took a lot great effort for both teams to get here though, not just the Sabres.

 

The Goat

(I too am no Philly fan)

 

Sorry G., bringing up John Tortorella to a Sabre fan is a bad choice. He was a big part of this franchise for a long time. We knew he was a very good coach. His time in Buffalo and Rochester (I think he won a Calder Cup but not sure) showed he knew his hockey. (Nothing to see here.) He paid his dues in the NHL and the Sabres organIzation. He was a big part of this team's success.

 

As far as the teams the Sabres beat? They beat the #1 team and the #5 team. Compared to the #3 team and #7 team.

 

And lets face facts. The only reason the Canes have home ice is because they play 8 games each against the Caps and Panthers. ;) Win a real division and we will talk.

[wjag]

Interesting debate, Personally, I didn't want any part of NJ during the playoffs. Maybe some consider it misguided, but I do consider playoff experience an important factor. And Jersey was stocked with "been there and done that guys". Look at Buffalo's best player right now, Drury, playoff experience and a ring. But each team makes their own series and breaks. You can't look at CAR-MON; CAR-NJ; BUF-OTT; and BUF-PHL games outside the context in which they were played. Injuries played a role as well. Matchups as well. Coaching as well. Who is to say that OTT might not take a part Carolina in four games and New Jersey beats Buffalo in five had they played. As we have all seen, this game has a great deal to do with skill, speed and coaching. It also has a lot to do with luck. If Alfredson's shot doesn't hit the post with 2 seconds left and goes in, the Sabres might have been in a series dog fight. From my perspective, the one thing that has been consistent throughout the playoffs is the teams with speed have advanced (assuming they weren't playing each other) and the teams without speed haven't. The final four teams are all fast, tenacious and hungry. Who you beat to get here is really irrelevant at this point. How you play in game 1 will go a long way to determining the series. Not so much if you win or lose (winning is of course better) but how you match up for seven games. And who is getting the breaks (bouncing pucks, penalties and injuries)....