Let's talk Zach Benson....

[Drag0nDan]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

Would like to see a GM brought in that can come up with a F lineup that a 20 year old Benson slots into the lineup as a 3rd liner when all are healthy and if necessary climbs the ladder some when injuries do hit.

Would like to see

New Guy - Norris - Thompson

Zucker - McLoud - Tuch

Benson - Kulich - Greenway

Malenstyn - Krebs - Lafferty

as the starting 12.  Don't want Peterka gone, nor is it desired to have Lafferty back.  Would rather have a UFA taking Lafferty's spot, but don't expect it.  And am expecting Peterka will be part of the package to fix the D and that Byram will be part of the package to find that guy that plays a large chunk of the season in Norris' spot and plays with him and Tage when Norris is healthy.  Especially if they bring in a guy that makes Lafferty the 13th or 14th F, then when Norris is out they have options of bumping up any of Tuch, Zucker, Benson, or Kulich.  And they'd probably still have Quinn around or could give Östlund, Kozak, Rousek, or Rosen looks to backfill depending upon who else is out.

(Actually, would really like to see a 2nd new guy sliding Zucker down to play with Benson and Kulich, bumping Greenway onto a really good 4th line and Lafferty into the press box with Quinn.  (Nobody is giving anything of value to take Quinn at this point.  Might as well keep him around and see if his stightly improved play down the stretch can be a starting point to his living up to his draft pedigree.)  But, with also needing to fix the D and ideally have more certainty between the pipes, not sure that 2nd top 6 guy is a luxury we'll get to see.  (IF 2 of Norris, Greenway, and Power look like they'll start the year on IR; would REALLY like to see them try to make that 2nd new top 6 guy a reality.)

And if Benson forces his way into a bigger role than 3L, cool.  But good teams have good players actually showing up on the 3rd line.

 

Top 6 players are tough to find.  Makes it way tougher when you have to factor in the trade protection clauses that the majority of veterans have.  Then you have to filter out the 22-25 year old cornerstone players who won't be moved.  

The only like bonafide stud who might be available with no trade protection is Robertson just because they're up against the cap and he's likely to get 10M AAV on his next deal.  JJP probably can't be moved in that deal because his contract will likely cost just as much as Robertson.  So then you're looking at probably moving Tuch, Rosen/Östlund/Kulich/Benson, and probably a 1st.  

12 Players scored more points than JJP that have no clauses and are under contract for next year: Hagel, Suzuki, Necas, Strome, Robertson, Raymond, Stutzle, Marchenko, Boldy, Johnston, Hughes, Caufield.  Even in that next window, the majority of players are in their early 20's with outliers like Rust, and keep scrolling and you hit cozens - then you know you cannot scroll any further.  

[quill]

Even though I think Benson is a little overrated by some people on this board, I love the way he hustles out there 100% of the time. He's quicker than just about anyone to a loose puck, he sets up players with some excellent passes, he's tough for his size, he's got good vision for the game, and his stamina is up there with the best. On the same token, he just can't seem to finish on enough of the opportunities he gets to score, and he's often flat on the ice which takes him out of the play for too long. Just the same, with the right coaching, I think there's a chance that he could develop into somewhat of a Theo Fleury type player. Maybe. Hopefully.

[Porous Five Hole]

Man, this hand wringing about Benson’s production is weird to me.  Here are the list of players 19 years old (his age) or younger who outproduced Benson offensively in the NHL this season:

Maclin Celebrini (first overall), Will Smith (fourth overall), Connor Bedard (first overall).  That’s it.  
 

To be able to develop all this time in the NHL will be a godsend down the road. He may never be a sniper, but he will always be a core player on this team.  
 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/buffalo-sabres-zach-benson-fights-jason-zucker-jordan-greenway

Edited Tuesday at 06:03 PM by Porous Five Hole

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

If you say so.

• Patrice Bergeron 68 games in the minors (lockout)
• Charlie McAvoy 4 games in the minors
• David Pastrnak 25 games in the minors
• Brad Marchand  113 games in the minors
• David Krecji 94 games in the minors
• Pavel Zacha 7 games in the minors
• Jake Debrusk 68 games in the minors
• Hampus Lindholm 44 games in the minors
• Charlie Coyle 47 games in the minors
• Taylor Hall 26 games in the minors (lockout)

 

• Tage Thompson 80 games in the minors
• JJ Peterka 70 games in the minors
• Rasmus Dahlin 0 games in the minors
• Alex Tuch 60 games in the minors
• Ryan McLeod 91 games in the minors
• Owen Power 0 games in the minors
• Jack Quinn 60 games in the minors
• Zach Benson 0 games in the minors
• Jiri Kulich 123 games in the minors
• Mattias Samuelsson 65 games in the minors

 

Looks to me like Benson is an outlier, but otherwise, how is the minor league experience of these Sabres different than the core of a 135-point hockey team?

Looks like the Bruins screwed up McAvoy's development.  

[The Jokeman]

I didn't like putting Benson in the NHL straight from the draft. I'm not sure he'll ever be a top 6 guy. He just feels like another Krebs. I hope I'm wrong.

[mjd1001]

56 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I didn't like putting Benson in the NHL straight from the draft. I'm not sure he'll ever be a top 6 guy. He just feels like another Krebs. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm somewhat there with you, at least for how good he is right now, I'm not as high on his game currently as some are on this board, but I think he has time to develop into a top 6 guy, but I think he needs more 'finish'.

I'll feel better about his development if next season he plays a full season, gets at least 160-180 shots, and shoots 10% or over.  I think those are reasonable goals for him to have to show he will eventually be a legit 2-way top 6 guy.  

[FrenchConnection44]

Benson is a fan favorite and really smart player with great instincts. 

I don’t see the comp to O’Reilly who is bigger and stronger. He can hang in front of the net.

Nor the comp to Marchand who is much more physical and tougher. And has a real edge to his game with dirty play. He’s mean. And an agitator not afraid to rough it up. Marchand also probably really goes only 5’7 and still around 180. Dude is a small bowling ball. 

The challenges for Benson are multiple: he doesn’t skate really fast; he doesn’t have a powerful shot; doesn’t have really strong hands or handle or ability to rocket passes; and he doesn’t really have size or strength or power for the corners, or the mean / angry streak to match up. 

He’s got great hockey sense. Tricky good defensive stick skills (except for a shot and strong hands). Now, if he gained 10-15 pounds of muscle, developed his shot and stronger passing, improved his skating speed, or became more physical in the corners he could really become a very good player. 

But he has a lot of work to do to become  a significant player imo. He’s a kid in a man’s game right now and it may take 3 more years and some adversity to get there.

The fact is, most of our players play like Junior or college kids. Benson is the poster boy. They don’t play like men. Two or three of those on a team are fine. But it takes men to win in the NHL.

 

[sabremike]

10 minutes ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

Benson is a fan favorite and really smart player with great instincts. 

I don’t see the comp to O’Reilly who is bigger and stronger. He can hang in front of the net.

Nor the comp to Marchand who is much more physical and tougher. And has a real edge to his game with dirty play. He’s mean. And an agitator not afraid to rough it up. Marchand also probably really goes only 5’7 and still around 180. Dude is a small bowling ball. 

The challenges for Benson are multiple: he doesn’t skate really fast; he doesn’t have a powerful shot; doesn’t have really strong hands or handle or ability to rocket passes; and he doesn’t really have size or strength or power for the corners, or the mean / angry streak to match up. 

He’s got great hockey sense. Tricky good defensive stick skills (except for a shot and strong hands). Now, if he gained 10-15 pounds of muscle, developed his shot and stronger passing, improved his skating speed, or became more physical in the corners he could really become a very good player. 

But he has a lot of work to do to become  a significant player imo. He’s a kid in a man’s game right now and it may take 3 more years and some adversity to get there.

The fact is, most of our players play like Junior or college kids. Benson is the poster boy. They don’t play like men. Two or three of those on a team are fine. But it takes men to win in the NHL.

 

Honestly I don't even know what to say...

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, JP51 said:

I think both statements are true in the end... but to your point AHL time is not throwing the baby out... I think at this point Benson going to the AHL is probably not realistic or neccessary IMO... I do think they need to be thoughtful about who they are playing him with, what situations the put him (and that includes looking to get him focused in all situations as I believe he can be a great 2 way player) and give him a plan of focus with goals... like, your are going to play more PK now.. we need you to do x,y,z... and allow him to focus on some wax on wax off stuff ... I can't prove it, have no knowledge of it or have anything to base this on other than my eyes.. but it seems to date he has just been put out there to freelance and play... moving around from line to line... etc...  I would like to see more focus for him because I think he could become a cornerstone guy... 

I don't disagree and I really like Benson and I really like Kulich, but if we go into next year and our top line is Benson Kulich Thompson we are simply NOT making the playoffs. We need more veterans. 

[PerreaultForever]

11 hours ago, dudacek said:

If you say so.

• Patrice Bergeron 68 games in the minors (lockout)
• Charlie McAvoy 4 games in the minors
• David Pastrnak 25 games in the minors
• Brad Marchand  113 games in the minors
• David Krecji 94 games in the minors
• Pavel Zacha 7 games in the minors
• Jake Debrusk 68 games in the minors
• Hampus Lindholm 44 games in the minors
• Charlie Coyle 47 games in the minors
• Taylor Hall 26 games in the minors (lockout)

 

• Tage Thompson 80 games in the minors
• JJ Peterka 70 games in the minors
• Rasmus Dahlin 0 games in the minors
• Alex Tuch 60 games in the minors
• Ryan McLeod 91 games in the minors
• Owen Power 0 games in the minors
• Jack Quinn 60 games in the minors
• Zach Benson 0 games in the minors
• Jiri Kulich 123 games in the minors
• Mattias Samuelsson 65 games in the minors

 

Looks to me like Benson is an outlier, but otherwise, how is the minor league experience of these Sabres different than the core of a 135-point hockey team?

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say, especially listing off star players as comparisons. Benson isn't Pasternak. You need to compare them at the same age for example. Tuch was a first round pick. 60 games in the minors doesn't seem to have hurt him. 

Since you are listing off Bruins the better comparison would be Poitras. Another guy who was too young to send to the AHL at first. Before he got injured he was producing roughly the same as Benson. Bruins, despite sucking, sent him down this year to learn and grow. He's becoming a solid leader in Providence and I suspect will be a Bruin next year or the year after depending on their full plan which nobody seems to know. I guarantee you he will be better for it.  

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say, especially listing off star players as comparisons. Benson isn't Pasternak. You need to compare them at the same age for example. Tuch was a first round pick. 60 games in the minors doesn't seem to have hurt him. 

Since you are listing off Bruins the better comparison would be Poitras. Another guy who was too young to send to the AHL at first. Before he got injured he was producing roughly the same as Benson. Bruins, despite sucking, sent him down this year to learn and grow. He's becoming a solid leader in Providence and I suspect will be a Bruin next year or the year after depending on their full plan which nobody seems to know. I guarantee you he will be better for it.  

You said Sabres fans have a skewed view of how players develop and implied thats because the Sabres have a radically  different way of doing things in the context of how long players are cooked in the minors.

I showed that it’s not actually so different; by and large the core of that excellent Bruins team was cooked in similar fashion.

Benson, as I said initially, seems to be an outlier, like Bergeron was, and Ryan O’Reilly a little later. Neither was a star at 18, or expected to play in the NHL, but made it - like Benson did - because of their surprisingly strong details at that age.

Both added the offence in year 3 - with a lockout spent in the minors in year 2 for Bergeron, and a year 2 in the NHL for ROR that essentially mirrored his low-scoring year 1.

Im thinking you would have had each of them in the minors to start year 3?

I suspect both would have still become the players they did regardless of that 2nd season. Guess we’ll find out with Benson.

 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

You said Sabres fans have a skewed view of how players develop and implied thats because the Sabres have a radically  different way of doing things in the context of how long players are cooked in the minors.

I showed that it’s not actually so different; by and large the core of that excellent Bruins team was cooked in similar fashion.

Benson, as I said initially, seems to be an outlier, like Bergeron was, and Ryan O’Reilly a little later. Neither was a star at 18, or expected to play in the NHL, but made it - like Benson did - because of their surprisingly strong details at that age.

Both added the offence in year 3 - with a lockout spent in the minors in year 2 for Bergeron, and a year 2 in the NHL for ROR that essentially mirrored his low-scoring year 1.

Im thinking you would have had each of them in the minors to start year 3?

I suspect both would have still become the players they did regardless of that 2nd season. Guess we’ll find out with Benson.

 

Basically yes. Remember it's not a one way street either. If they are phenomenal down there and your AHL coaches tell you this guy is "fully cooked" as you put it you can bring him back any time and waive some stiff. 

What I'm talking about is building a team and roster that isn't dependent on rookies and youngsters having to be good for the team's success. The Sabres way. 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

Benson is a fan favorite and really smart player with great instincts. 

I don’t see the comp to O’Reilly who is bigger and stronger. He can hang in front of the net.

Nor the comp to Marchand who is much more physical and tougher. And has a real edge to his game with dirty play. He’s mean. And an agitator not afraid to rough it up. Marchand also probably really goes only 5’7 and still around 180. Dude is a small bowling ball. 

The challenges for Benson are multiple: he doesn’t skate really fast; he doesn’t have a powerful shot; doesn’t have really strong hands or handle or ability to rocket passes; and he doesn’t really have size or strength or power for the corners, or the mean / angry streak to match up. 

He’s got great hockey sense. Tricky good defensive stick skills (except for a shot and strong hands). Now, if he gained 10-15 pounds of muscle, developed his shot and stronger passing, improved his skating speed, or became more physical in the corners he could really become a very good player. 

But he has a lot of work to do to become  a significant player imo. He’s a kid in a man’s game right now and it may take 3 more years and some adversity to get there.

The fact is, most of our players play like Junior or college kids. Benson is the poster boy. They don’t play like men. Two or three of those on a team are fine. But it takes men to win in the NHL.

 

The only part of this I agree with is that it will still take several years for Benson to get to his full potential. While goal scoring is important, the Sabres missed the playoffs because they couldn't defend for *****. Benson was one of the best defensive forwards on the team. His primary assist rate went up while his 2nd assist rate went down. I agree with everyone, he needs to shoot more and better. He's 19, if Reinhart taught ppl anything it's that 19yr olds aren't finished NHLers.

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

You said Sabres fans have a skewed view of how players develop and implied thats because the Sabres have a radically  different way of doing things in the context of how long players are cooked in the minors.

I showed that it’s not actually so different; by and large the core of that excellent Bruins team was cooked in similar fashion.

Benson, as I said initially, seems to be an outlier, like Bergeron was, and Ryan O’Reilly a little later. Neither was a star at 18, or expected to play in the NHL, but made it - like Benson did - because of their surprisingly strong details at that age.

Both added the offence in year 3 - with a lockout spent in the minors in year 2 for Bergeron, and a year 2 in the NHL for ROR that essentially mirrored his low-scoring year 1.

Im thinking you would have had each of them in the minors to start year 3?

I suspect both would have still become the players they did regardless of that 2nd season. Guess we’ll find out with Benson.

 

I’m a Benson fan and believe in a couple of years he’s going to be a good player. However, he playing on the first line was too much of an advanced role at this stage of his development. He’s certainly an effort player and smart positional player, but his lack of offensive production should have placed him on a lower line where his game was better suited.

Will he eventually become a to two line player? Maybe, but lean toward eventually yes.

[JP51]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't disagree and I really like Benson and I really like Kulich, but if we go into next year and our top line is Benson Kulich Thompson we are simply NOT making the playoffs. We need more veterans. 

Quite honestly I love you mentioned Kulich, I feel like Benson, Kulich, Peterka are our core for the future they are the 3 in order, of our young players I like the most... Veteran...  agreed we need some experience... as long as that is more like a Zucker player and less like a Malenstyn or Aube-Kubel player...  We really need to make sure that these players, especially Benson and Kulich develop properly... 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, JP51 said:

Quite honestly I love you mentioned Kulich, I feel like Benson, Kulich, Peterka are our core for the future they are the 3 in order, of our young players I like the most... Veteran...  agreed we need some experience... as long as that is more like a Zucker player and less like a Malenstyn or Aube-Kubel player...  We really need to make sure that these players, especially Benson and Kulich develop properly... 

Yes. I like all 3 of them. I identified Peterka's potential early and some people laughed at me when I said he'd be better than Quinn but all 3 of them are good young players. They are too young however to be the driving force of the team. Peterka's maybe there now but the other two aren't ready to be the top line (yet). 

Zucker was an okay add (although his durability still worries me) but I want more and even better. Make some more McLeod for Savoie type deals.