Let's talk Zach Benson....

[JP51]

5 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Different but similar effect:  Both guys are best when they get opponents off their game.  Remember all the penalties Skinner drew?  That's what I'm talking about.  He was more psy-ops though; Benson is more physical distraction, and Benson's game is more consistent.  If he can get to the point where he's chipping in 20-25 goals but his linemates are scoring 30-40, he'll be a great first liner.

Both try to get opponent off game... I go down a dark alley with Benson over Skinner everyday of the week

[LGR4GM]

I think Benson's playmaking will get much much better.  I actually think if Ruff understood how to use him better, he'd have better season. You want him getting touches, drawing defenders, and then letting his center drive the net. I actually think he should be with McLeod and Tuch over Norris and Thompson. 

JJP- Norris-Thompson

Benson-McLeod-Tuch

[Archie Lee]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Benson's playmaking will get much much better.  I actually think if Ruff understood how to use him better, he'd have better season. You want him getting touches, drawing defenders, and then letting his center drive the net. I actually think he should be with McLeod and Tuch over Norris and Thompson. 

JJP- Norris-Thompson

Benson-McLeod-Tuch

That’s what I have for our top two lines, but I have Benson and Peterka flipped. I like the idea of acquiring Rust from Pittsburgh and having Zucker - Kulich - Rust as line 3. 
 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Yes, he is no longer junior eligible and not yet waiver eligible.

Personally, unless he has an utterly out-of-character camp, I think this would make the Sabres weaker and send a terrible message to Benson and to the Sabres that do make the roster.

If I was GM I wouldn't be doing it to "make the Sabres weaker" I would also be signing and/or trading for some veteran players to balance the roster and create a greater sense of internal competition. I'm filling that roster spot with a veteran. 

It's also not a "terrible message" to Benson. It's time to break with all this bs don't block them let the kids play crap. You tell Benson we have big plans for you kid. We see you as one of our top 6 long term. We want you to spend one year in the AHL to fill out your body and learn every nuance and aspect of the game. It's not a punishment. It shouldn't be viewed that way. 

[PerreaultForever]

56 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

So you want Benson to demand a trade before he's even completed his rookie ELC?

He's the best defensive forward on the team, he's the only agitator, he has top-10 talent playmaking ability (rated 2nd to Bedard in his class). His shot will get stronger just like Reinhart's did, Dahlin's did, and Krebs' has. Moving him only frees up $900k and creates a $5M+ hole in the lineup on a team that is (currently) unwilling to spend close to the cap.

wtf are you talking about? If that sort of attitude is the Sabres attitude it's no wonder they never win and then never will. Proper player development is in stages and has many aspects to it. I think Benson's great, but he still has a LOT to learn. One year in the AHL as a team leader would do him wonders. 

[Archie Lee]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

If I was GM I wouldn't be doing it to "make the Sabres weaker" I would also be signing and/or trading for some veteran players to balance the roster and create a greater sense of internal competition. I'm filling that roster spot with a veteran. 

It's also not a "terrible message" to Benson. It's time to break with all this bs don't block them let the kids play crap. You tell Benson we have big plans for you kid. We see you as one of our top 6 long term. We want you to spend one year in the AHL to fill out your body and learn every nuance and aspect of the game. It's not a punishment. It shouldn't be viewed that way. 

First, while I still think that Benson should have gone back to junior, he is an NHL player now and belongs in the NHL. 

Second, as incredible as it may seem, the Sabres are now in a spot where they are going to need a couple of entry level contracts on the roster. Assuming they are keeping Peterka, McLeod, and Byram, and/or trading them or others for players with similar contracts, the Sabres will be right at the cap. I don’t see a scenario where Benson and Kulich aren’t in some configuration of the top 9. 

[JP51]

13 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

First, while I still think that Benson should have gone back to junior, he is an NHL player now and belongs in the NHL. 

Second, as incredible as it may seem, the Sabres are now in a spot where they are going to need a couple of entry level contracts on the roster. Assuming they are keeping Peterka, McLeod, and Byram, and/or trading them or others for players with similar contracts, the Sabres will be right at the cap. I don’t see a scenario where Benson and Kulich aren’t in some configuration of the top 9. 

Really good point about the contract 

[oddoublee]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Yes, he is no longer junior eligible and not yet waiver eligible.

Personally, unless he has an utterly out-of-character camp, I think this would make the Sabres weaker and send a terrible message to Benson and to the Sabres that do make the roster.

Not saying I want it...but I don't hate the idea of him getting 20 minutes being top dog and refining his offensive skills. Play PP and a lil PK. Dominate against men rather than boys.

I'm not sold on everything I just wrote...but if the sabres actually were able to bring in vets that can help push to the playoffs...it's a scenario I could 'live' with. 

[LGR4GM]

46 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

wtf are you talking about? If that sort of attitude is the Sabres attitude it's no wonder they never win and then never will. Proper player development is in stages and has many aspects to it. I think Benson's great, but he still has a LOT to learn. One year in the AHL as a team leader would do him wonders. 

I disagree. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

If I was GM I wouldn't be doing it to "make the Sabres weaker" I would also be signing and/or trading for some veteran players to balance the roster and create a greater sense of internal competition. I'm filling that roster spot with a veteran. 

It's also not a "terrible message" to Benson. It's time to break with all this bs don't block them let the kids play crap. You tell Benson we have big plans for you kid. We see you as one of our top 6 long term. We want you to spend one year in the AHL to fill out your body and learn every nuance and aspect of the game. It's not a punishment. It shouldn't be viewed that way. 

If you are acquiring 3 or 4 veteran players clearly better than Benson, then I rescind my comment.

The way I see it, Benson is better than Lafferty, Kulich, Quinn, Krebs and Malenstyn, so that’s a lot of players to replace and a pretty big investment required to get them. I’m not sure how you’re going to acquire that many Greenways and Zuckers, but OK, let’s agree you will.

Because Benson has played 146 NHL games, most of them at maximum effort and 3rd-line effectiveness. You’re effectively undermining his confidence and telling him those games were a lie. You’re also taking away his NHL lifestyle and his NHL salary. Good luck convincing him that he’s not good enough to be in the NHL. Good luck convincing him this is not a punishment. 

The only way your plan works is if the Sabres have 12 forwards who are clearly contributing more to winning hockey than Benson would and both he and his teammates can clearly see that.

As far as I’m concerned, this horse has already left the barn. He’s not going to gain anything but frustration being put back in. He’s already spent two years in the NHL learning the nuance and aspect of the game. Keep riding him.

 

Edited 11 hours ago by dudacek

[Jorcus]

Hope is a #### strategy. Putting Benson on our top line with Tage screams this to me. Tage deserves better veteran players around him. What other player of Tages  quality has to put up with what he did at the end of the year? Benson is a good defense player but that 65 mph shot scares no one. He gets to the front of the net which makes it look like he gets high danger chances but he can't force himself into leveraged positions to make tip ins or redirects. Unless he is able to control his space in front of the net he will never be a high scorer. He is good on his edges but he gets outraced end to end. Unless he is behind the play he is not getting a breakaway. I don't remember him converting one.

He is not going anywhere next year unless he gets cross checked in the head which is a big possibility given his height vs a big defenseman. Put him on the 3rd line and the PK. The first line! No way.

Edited 11 hours ago by Jorcus

[Taro T]

Would like to see a GM brought in that can come up with a F lineup that a 20 year old Benson slots into the lineup as a 3rd liner when all are healthy and if necessary climbs the ladder some when injuries do hit.

Would like to see

New Guy - Norris - Thompson

Zucker - McLoud - Tuch

Benson - Kulich - Greenway

Malenstyn - Krebs - Lafferty

as the starting 12.  Don't want Peterka gone, nor is it desired to have Lafferty back.  Would rather have a UFA taking Lafferty's spot, but don't expect it.  And am expecting Peterka will be part of the package to fix the D and that Byram will be part of the package to find that guy that plays a large chunk of the season in Norris' spot and plays with him and Tage when Norris is healthy.  Especially if they bring in a guy that makes Lafferty the 13th or 14th F, then when Norris is out they have options of bumping up any of Tuch, Zucker, Benson, or Kulich.  And they'd probably still have Quinn around or could give Östlund, Kozak, Rousek, or Rosen looks to backfill depending upon who else is out.

(Actually, would really like to see a 2nd new guy sliding Zucker down to play with Benson and Kulich, bumping Greenway onto a really good 4th line and Lafferty into the press box with Quinn.  (Nobody is giving anything of value to take Quinn at this point.  Might as well keep him around and see if his stightly improved play down the stretch can be a starting point to his living up to his draft pedigree.)  But, with also needing to fix the D and ideally have more certainty between the pipes, not sure that 2nd top 6 guy is a luxury we'll get to see.  (IF 2 of Norris, Greenway, and Power look like they'll start the year on IR; would REALLY like to see them try to make that 2nd new top 6 guy a reality.)

And if Benson forces his way into a bigger role than 3L, cool.  But good teams have good players actually showing up on the 3rd line.

 

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

wtf are you talking about? If that sort of attitude is the Sabres attitude it's no wonder they never win and then never will. Proper player development is in stages and has many aspects to it. I think Benson's great, but he still has a LOT to learn. One year in the AHL as a team leader would do him wonders. 

Yes, he does have more to learn and improve upon; everyone on the roster does. Benson needs to learn how to create space against NHL D-men and to avoid taking as many tripping penalties. He'll learn those in the NHL more quickly than he will being in the AHL. The strength will come with time, the speed and skating can be worked on as we've seen with other prospects. I'm guessing he has the will to put in the work for it. At this point, he'll get better against competition that's going to push him.

The cost aspect is in response to your claim to just go find someone to replace him. Benson led the Sabres in Corsi (on-ice shot attempt %). Relative to his teammates, only Dahlin was better. This wasn't a fluke, either, as he as 5th on the team last year (4th if you remove Brett Murray and his 2 GP). This wasn't TNT carrying Benson all season. They didn't give Benson top line minutes until March; early in the season he was on a line with Cozens and Quinn. Paying a forward to give you that sort of puck control is going be expensive.

Per MoneyPuck, sorting Forwards by Corsi + 1000 minutes played to get rid of the noise and show Benson's durability. This leaves Benson 57th in the League - just ahead of TNT. Here are the players near him in range 50th-65th:  Jason Robertson, Rakell, Crosby, Strome, Raymond, Anders Lee, Kyrou, Benson, TNT, Brayden Point, Kent Johnson, Byfield, Bjorkstrand, Hischier, Caulfield, Marchessault.

With the exception of Bjorkstrand, who in Tampa's top 6, that's a $7M UFA acquisition or a massive trade payment to acquire. This ownership won't pay for another top line forward after handling their RFAs.

He's young, but he's a NHLer.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

Yes, he does have more to learn and improve upon; everyone on the roster does. Benson needs to learn how to create space against NHL D-men and to avoid taking as many tripping penalties. He'll learn those in the NHL more quickly than he will being in the AHL. The strength will come with time, the speed and skating can be worked on as we've seen with other prospects. I'm guessing he has the will to put in the work for it. At this point, he'll get better against competition that's going to push him.

The cost aspect is in response to your claim to just go find someone to replace him. Benson led the Sabres in Corsi (on-ice shot attempt %). Relative to his teammates, only Dahlin was better. This wasn't a fluke, either, as he as 5th on the team last year (4th if you remove Brett Murray and his 2 GP). This wasn't TNT carrying Benson all season. They didn't give Benson top line minutes until March; early in the season he was on a line with Cozens and Quinn. Paying a forward to give you that sort of puck control is going be expensive.

Per MoneyPuck, sorting Forwards by Corsi + 1000 minutes played to get rid of the noise and show Benson's durability. This leaves Benson 57th in the League - just ahead of TNT. Here are the players near him in range 50th-65th:  Jason Robertson, Rakell, Crosby, Strome, Raymond, Anders Lee, Kyrou, Benson, TNT, Brayden Point, Kent Johnson, Byfield, Bjorkstrand, Hischier, Caulfield, Marchessault.

With the exception of Bjorkstrand, who in Tampa's top 6, that's a $7M UFA acquisition or a massive trade payment to acquire. This ownership won't pay for another top line forward after handling their RFAs.

He's young, but he's a NHLer.

The bold should not and cannot be overlooked as the best reason why he should be in the NHL.

The best way for Benson to learn how to beat NHL opponents is to continue playing against NHL opponents. The argument of putting him in the AHL works if he's showing he cannot succeed against NHL talent. By all measures, that's simply not the case.

Edited 8 hours ago by dudacek

[sabremike]

So let me get this straight: 

Benson, who earned a spot in the NHL as hard as it's possible to earn it (they absolutely wanted him to go back to the WHL but he gave them no choice but to put and keep him on the roster) needs to be sent to Rochester to send a message he needs to "earn his spot"? And the fact that his metrics on both ends of the ice are off the charts and that if other players played the game the way he does we would be playing playoff games right now should be ignored because puck luck has led to point production not matching the metrics?

Do I have this right?

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, sabremike said:

So let me get this straight: 

Benson, who earned a spot in the NHL as hard as it's possible to earn it (they absolutely wanted him to go back to the WHL but he gave them no choice but to put and keep him on the roster) needs to be sent to Rochester to send a message he needs to "earn his spot"? And the fact that his metrics on both ends of the ice are off the charts and that if other players played the game the way he does we would be playing playoff games right now should be ignored because puck luck has led to point production not matching the metrics?

Do I have this right?

You forgot, he's short. But yea, that about covers it. 

[sabremike]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You forgot, he's short. But yea, that about covers it. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Yes, he does have more to learn and improve upon; everyone on the roster does. Benson needs to learn how to create space against NHL D-men and to avoid taking as many tripping penalties. He'll learn those in the NHL more quickly than he will being in the AHL. The strength will come with time, the speed and skating can be worked on as we've seen with other prospects. I'm guessing he has the will to put in the work for it. At this point, he'll get better against competition that's going to push him.

The cost aspect is in response to your claim to just go find someone to replace him. Benson led the Sabres in Corsi (on-ice shot attempt %). Relative to his teammates, only Dahlin was better. This wasn't a fluke, either, as he as 5th on the team last year (4th if you remove Brett Murray and his 2 GP). This wasn't TNT carrying Benson all season. They didn't give Benson top line minutes until March; early in the season he was on a line with Cozens and Quinn. Paying a forward to give you that sort of puck control is going be expensive.

Per MoneyPuck, sorting Forwards by Corsi + 1000 minutes played to get rid of the noise and show Benson's durability. This leaves Benson 57th in the League - just ahead of TNT. Here are the players near him in range 50th-65th:  Jason Robertson, Rakell, Crosby, Strome, Raymond, Anders Lee, Kyrou, Benson, TNT, Brayden Point, Kent Johnson, Byfield, Bjorkstrand, Hischier, Caulfield, Marchessault.

With the exception of Bjorkstrand, who in Tampa's top 6, that's a $7M UFA acquisition or a massive trade payment to acquire. This ownership won't pay for another top line forward after handling their RFAs.

He's young, but he's a NHLer.

See, where we differ, is I'm tired of having players on the roster who need to learn. Using the NHL as a training ground. Losing games while we grow and learn. That stuff is for your AHL team. NHL team should be too busy competing to spend all their time teaching. Get me some veterans who already know how to play. 

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

See, where we differ, is I'm tired of having players on the roster who need to learn. Using the NHL as a training ground. Losing games while we grow and learn. That stuff is for your AHL team. NHL team should be too busy competing to spend all their time teaching. Get me some veterans who already know how to play. 

Every good franchise gives kids space to learn.

Every top player spent a few years learning, adjusting and getting better.

The solution isn't throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Every good franchise gives kids space to learn.

Every top player spent a few years learning, adjusting and getting better.

The solution isn't throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't understand this sort of statement. Who is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"? The AHL is supposed to function as a development league. It's not punitive. It's beneficial. Remember Thompson came back a much better player. Benson would benefit from it. I firmly believe that and he would be a better player sooner if he went down for the year. 

If Sabres were actually in the hunt he could come up end of the year if not sooner. If the timing was right. 

Sabres fans have come to accept a very unusual and skewed vision of how hockey players develop and mature. I guess it's the Sabres' way. 

[LGR4GM]

I'll worry about Benson after this team fixes its defense.