Let's talk Zach Benson....

[JP51]

Earlier this year he was listed as one of the untouchable players on this team... 

2023 -  71 games 11 goals   19 Assists   30 pts   +/-  -3

2024 -  75 games 10 goals   18 assists  28 pts   +/- -2 

Very similar numbers, not sure I would call it regression but it certainly isnt progression....  where do we sit now, still untouchable? Simply another example of the Sabres inability to develop talented players?  He is not who we thought he was....  As for me, I expected something closer to a 20 goal 45-50 pt season for him... its early yet, but I feel like we are beginning to ruin him... let him languish much longer and we may bleed the attitude and fight right out of him... 

 

Interested in folks opinions here.. he was such a hope for us when the season started... not as much when it ended... 

 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by JP51

[Porous Five Hole]

He is not who we thought he was? What did you think he was?

Your leading questions stink. Like, really stink.

Benson provided elite defensive results at 19 years old.  And he needs a wheelbarrow to carry his balls around.  To measure him simply by points is missing the entire point. 

[Palm Trees And Taxes]

Do you all think its more related to where Benson is playing?

14 minutes a night, not a lot of top 6 time. Do we all envision Benson as an absolute Top 6 guy? Is he part of a package to get that true Top 6 winger?

I do agree though about the lack of progression in points, was hoping for more but he is still very young

[oddoublee]

I went with option 2, a future top 6 forward. 

My issue with Benson isn't even an issue with Benson himself. Not being able to play in the AHL stinks for him. It would've been a great opportunity for him to develop his offensive game against men while playing 20 minutes of hockey a night. 

Regardless, he is still a kid and clearly an NHL top 9 talent at worst. For where he was drafted, that isn't bad at all. All that said, I still believe he becomes a top 6 player in the next couple years.

[JP51]

7 minutes ago, Palm Trees And Taxes said:

Do you all think its more related to where Benson is playing?

14 minutes a night, not a lot of top 6 time. Do we all envision Benson as an absolute Top 6 guy? Is he part of a package to get that true Top 6 winger?

I do agree though about the lack of progression in points, was hoping for more but he is still very young

I dont disagree, I am just worried that he is going to go thru the grinder that seems to ruin prospects... I really feel like their needs to be a change for him. Certainly who he plays with for sure because I think the entire team needs a lot of change... Quite honestly, throwing him in at 18 I wonder? Certainly you cant demote him at this point I dont think that helps... but I do think there needs to be a focus on how he develops... I am not sure that it is in place now... He seems to be the one guy with the skill and the attitude that we are looking for... Maybe a Marchand type...  

[JP51]

Just now, oddoublee said:

I went with option 2, a future top 6 forward. 

My issue with Benson isn't even an issue with Benson himself. Not being able to play in the AHL stinks for him. It would've been a great opportunity for him to develop his offensive game against men while playing 20 minutes of hockey a night. 

Regardless, he is still a kid and clearly an NHL top 9 talent at worst. For where he was drafted, that isn't bad at all. All that said, I still believe he becomes a top 6 player in the next couple years.

The AHL thing is indeed a thing... and there is no going back now... I think there is a way to move him to top 6 and his attitude is completely an intangible that we need more of...  but to me we put him thru the meat grinder and expect development probably not the plan... I just dont see the developmental coaching here... I really think we need one...  Quite honestly I would love to see Peca get his hands on Benson... they could be similar players. 

[Palm Trees And Taxes]

4 minutes ago, JP51 said:

I dont disagree, I am just worried that he is going to go thru the grinder that seems to ruin prospects... I really feel like their needs to be a change for him. Certainly who he plays with for sure because I think the entire team needs a lot of change... Quite honestly, throwing him in at 18 I wonder? Certainly you cant demote him at this point I dont think that helps... but I do think there needs to be a focus on how he develops... I am not sure that it is in place now... He seems to be the one guy with the skill and the attitude that we are looking for... Maybe a Marchand type...  

Interesting thought on Marchand and that type of player. and Benson IMO was too young to start in Buffalo, here are Marchand's first two years, more productive and notice one difference:

Edited 17 hours ago by Palm Trees And Taxes

[dudacek]

57 minutes ago, JP51 said:

Earlier this year he was listed as one of the untouchable players on this team... 

2023 -  71 games 11 goals   19 Assists   30 pts   +/-  -3

2024 -  75 games 10 goals   18 assists  28 pts   +/- -2 

Very similar numbers, not sure I would call it regression but it certainly isnt progression....  where do we sit now, still untouchable? Simply another example of the Sabres inability to develop talented players?  He is not who we thought he was....  As for me, I expected something closer to a 20 goal 45-50 pt season for him... its early yet, but I feel like we are beginning to ruin him... let him languish much longer and we may bleed the attitude and fight right out of him... 

 

Interested in folks opinions here.. he was such a hope for us when the season started... not as much when it ended... 

 

 

He's an outlier.

I mean that in the sense of how few 18-year-olds play in the NHL without an elite size/skill/speed combination; Benson's comparables are few and far between.

The first one that came to mind was Ryan O' Reilly. Here are his raw numbers in his first 2 seasons:

• D+1 Colorado 81 8/18/26 +4
• D+2 Colorado 74 13/13/26 -7

He broke out with 55 points as a 20-year-old.

The guy I like to compare Benson's game to is Marchand, but he took a far more typical path and didn't make the NHL until his D+5 season.

He became a 55-point player in his D+6 year and a point/game player in his D+11 year; he needed time to get fast and strong enough to play his game at the NHL level and he kept getting better.

I don't think Benson in any way, shape or form has been ruined; analytically he is one of the Sabres best players and the eye test supports this in terms of positioning and compete. He is in the NHL, not as a talented kid in over his head, learning in the deep end, but as a reliable high-energy 3rd-line forward. It's weird, but it's what he is right now.

The question remains is how much offence is in there to be unlocked once his brain and body fully develop? I don't know where the ceiling is because his game at 19 is so unconventional. He shouldn't be compared to guys like Fantilli and Michkov because he doesn't have their elite physical tools. Just like Marchand's path should never have been compared to Sidney Crosby's

But to your point, being a teenager on a ***** team early in his career certainly didn't ruin O'Reilly. I think the fact that Benson is a 30-point NHL player at 19 should still very much be considered a positive. 

I'm pretty confident we will see his game continue to grow. It's just the when and how much that are the open questions.

Edited 17 hours ago by dudacek

[oddoublee]

Just now, JP51 said:

The AHL thing is indeed a thing... and there is no going back now... I think there is a way to move him to top 6 and his attitude is completely an intangible that we need more of...  but to me we put him thru the meat grinder and expect development probably not the plan... I just dont see the developmental coaching here... I really think we need one...  Quite honestly I would love to see Peca get his hands on Benson... they could be similar players. 

That's the tough part - and probably why you don't bring 18 year old kids to the NHL unless they are truly special offensively. The Sabres believed they were a playoff team the last two years, preventing them from 'developing' his game. Sink or swim. 

Good news, I think Benson has the mental chops to fight through the meat grinder.

Definitely not untouchable though - for the right haul, you move him. 

[JP51]

24 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

He is not who we thought he was? What did you think he was?

Your leading questions stink. Like, really stink.

Benson provided elite defensive results at 19 years old.  And he needs a wheelbarrow to carry his balls around.  To measure him simply by points is missing the entire point. 

Sorry you didnt like the questions... in the end though they elicited exactly the discussion I was looking for...  Actually, I was reticent to put up the points thing but it was tangible and is bringing forth thought.  Quite honestly I love the fact you posted the defensive characteristics as maybe that is exactly where the progression took place this year and we can all feel better about it... it certainly does tell a better story... 

I posted earlier that I would love to see Peca get his hands on this quy... because maybe to your point he isnt going to be a 50 goal scoring 100 pt guy...  But more of a Peca or Marchand type player... 30 goals 70 pts... pk pp and 5/5 guy that can play in all situations.. honestly thats who I was thinking he would be.   

That said, my fear remains the same for him under the current regime... we take a guy who has this intangible attitude that we need to pervade this team... like give me 5 more of that attitude of "Sometimes you gotta cross check someone in the head" on this team.  and we beat it out of him... And that is what I think of Benson, I think he is exactly the type of player you need to build a team and I worry that this circumstance ruins that... 

 

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, JP51 said:

That said, my fear remains the same for him under the current regime... we take a guy who has this intangible attitude that we need to pervade this team... like give me 5 more of that attitude of "Sometimes you gotta cross check someone in the head" on this team.  and we beat it out of him... And that is what I think of Benson, I think he is exactly the type of player you need to build a team and I worry that this circumstance ruins that... 

 

I'm struggling to see who fits the bolded. Power certainly never was that guy. Neither were/are Quinn and Peterka. It was never beaten out of Dahlin; it took a while, but he embraced it

Cozens maybe?

One thing that's different there is that Cozens saw himself as a peer to Dahlin and Thompson and struggled to carry the weight of the drought. I don't see that in Benson at all. He's just playing hockey.

Edited 16 hours ago by dudacek

[JP51]

15 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm struggling to see who fits the bolded. Power certainly never was that guy. Neither were/are Quinn and Peterka. It was never beaten out of Dahlin; it took a while, but he embraced it

Cozens maybe?

One thing that's different there is that Cozens saw himself as a peer to Dahlin and Thompson and struggled to carry the weight of the drought. I don't see that in Benson at all. He's just playing hockey.

I think they are separate...  I think I see far too few of those type players on the team... Cozens may have been one of them...  we need more...  The developmental piece is separate.... so you cant beat a cross check them in the head attitude out of someone that doesnt have it... thats why it is intangible... however, the developmental aspect of this team has been poor...   Quinn might be an example, Middlestadt, Power, Levi. even into the AHL...  with all of our high picks and vaunted prospects who has really come to the rescue... Dahlin, Peterka?  Who is waiting in the wings to throttle a roster spot... Kulich...  So, I worry that we dont develop players to their potential...  as well as don't put the appropriate priority on the that intangible attitude that is hard to teach like Benson has.... and somewhere along the line, when losing becomes the standard... then you have lost them.... 

Edited 16 hours ago by JP51

[Doohickie]

37 minutes ago, oddoublee said:

I went with option 2, a future top 6 forward. 

He's a current top 6 forward already.

[Thorner]

“Will be a good top 6 piece” 

[oddoublee]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

He's a current top 6 forward already.

I'm not sure he 'should' be a top 6 forward already. Many teams outside of the sabres would not have him in their top 6. Our team sucks. Him currently being in the top 6 is a problem imo. Not a forever problem...but a current one.

[Doohickie]

Nah.  Even if he's not scoring big points, he takes the focus off Tage, giving Tage more room to maneuver.  When Tage was clicking with Skinner it was a similar dynamic, it's just that Skinner was a more adept scorer.

But that will come for Benson.

[JP51]

5 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Nah.  Even if he's not scoring big points, he takes the focus off Tage, giving Tage more room to maneuver.  When Tage was clicking with Skinner it was a similar dynamic, it's just that Skinner was a more adept scorer.

But that will come for Benson.

I will say this, Benson has more attitude than Skinner ever had and this bodes well... 

[SabreFinn]

Thinking it is rare to find a player that young, that seems to fit and find ways to be useful on every line, no matter who he plays with.

On the other hand I think he would benefit from getting to play more constantly with same linemates. It is still to be found a player he creates a special chemistry with.

[pi2000]

10-18-28...  same stat line as Krebs.   

He slots as a 4th liner on a playoff team.   

Which is fine, you need those guys who bring something besides scoring.     If he breaks out offensively maybe 3rd line?  But that remains to be seen.

[No Goal]

Benson is still only 19 years old. He turns 20 next month. Can we allow his testicles to drop before passing judgement

on his long term outlook in the NHL ? Another way to judge him is that he has 21 goals and 58 points at 19 years old.

We live in such a hurry up society. 

[Thorner]

Just now, No Goal said:

Benson is still only 19 years old. He turns 20 next month. Can we allow his testicles to drop before passing judgement

on his long term outlook in the NHL ? Another way to judge him is that he has 21 goals and 58 points at 19 years old.

We live in such a hurry up society. 

Nearly 70% are saying he’s “untouchable” or “great” 

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

10-18-28...  same stat line as Krebs.   

He slots as a 4th liner on a playoff team.   

Which is fine, you need those guys who bring something besides scoring.     If he breaks out offensively maybe 3rd line?  But that remains to be seen.

It's not just you, but people need to step past 1989.

The 4th liners on the defending Stanley Cup champions were (pick 3):

• Lorenz 38 1/2/3
• Stenlund 81 11/4/15
• Cousins 69 7/8/15
• Okposo 67 12/10/22
• Lomberg 75 5/2/7

Statistically, NHL 3rd-liners (192-288th in scoring among forwards) had between 21 and 35 points. Benson is already a solid NHL 3rd-liner in terms of production while having average goal differential and above average analytics.

He slots as a 3rd-liner already.

[Taro T]

21 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

10-18-28...  same stat line as Krebs.   

He slots as a 4th liner on a playoff team.   

Which is fine, you need those guys who bring something besides scoring.     If he breaks out offensively maybe 3rd line?  But that remains to be seen.

He slots as a 4th liner on a playoff team AT the age of 19.

His is a really interesting case, because as @dudacek mentioned, he is a true outlier in being a non-high skill offensive guy playing in the NHL at the age of 18.

Personally, expect his ceiling will be somewhere in the top 6, but the fact he's a capable bottom 6 guy at this age without prototypical size nor an overwhelming shot nor skating ability bodes well for his future.  And if it takes until he's 22 or 24 to become that top 6 guy; it isn't that big of a deal.  That's when most guys start getting their 1st real tastes of the NHL.

[CallawaySabres]

Honestly, my answer for every single player not named Dahlin or Tage is that nobody is untouchable and I would not lose a second of sleep if anyone was traded.

[DarthEbriate]

He is excellent at creating high danger chances and he's among the best defensive players on the entire roster. The trouble is all his centering passes to the crease go right through it because there's never a Sabre there. 

If he were in the AHL, I'd pair him with Wahlberg and have him turn Wahlberg into a 30G guy. Sadly, the Sabres don't have a forward who is always going to be near the crease (except Benson). Tuch and Zucker would be the best bets. Without any personnel changes, Benson-Norris-Tuch as a 5-on-5 all zones line. (JJP-Kulich-TNT as a preferred o-zone line.)