How would you retool this team this summer?

[Thorner]

22 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Not at all. I open to any idea that improves the team, but adding guys like Marner, Tavares and Ekblad is the definition of video game because they won't realistically sign here.  I'm fine with our idea of Pettersson and Demko for Tuch and Norris as that is a deal that could happen and it would give us a legit No .1 center and playmaker and it's an upgrade in goal.  I love @LGR4GM idea of signing Gavikov.  He'll be in demand also, but it something that $ might swing a deal to get him here, especially with all the young Russians in our organization.   I'm not fine with dumping a good young player for a declining vet on a long-term contract.  

You gave ideas where we trade JJP or Kulich, while also giving an idea to acquire Cuylie.  Cuylie is only  3 weeks younger than JJP and not nearly as productive.

Cuylie

23/24 81 gms 13g 8a  21 pts

24/25 78gms 18g 22a 40 pts (turned 23 Feb 4th)

JJP 

23/24 82 gms 28g 22a  50 pts

24/25 72 gms 24g 38a 62 pts (turned 23 Jan 14)

Also Cuylie's rookie season as 21/22 years old looks nearly identical as Kulich's 20 year old rookie season so far of 14g 8a in 57 games (He turns 21 on April 14th), except Kulich accomplished it younger and in less games.

 

 

This is sort of the point. There’s a chasm between “Marner won’t sign here” and “TINKER ONLY” with the forwards. 

i don’t think anyone questions your grasp of contract and cap specifics but there’s no logical argument to retreat from there to “don’t really do much of anything to the F unit, by choice.” which is what you originally said.

At the end of the day, we know we shouldn’t be standing pat at F based on a macro look at the results beyond “they are top 10 in goals”, and especially not when there’s no reason to not go beyond “they’ll have a reasonable shot at it”, when playoffs are long past being the mandate 

On the other hand, it also can’t be framed as a choice beyond our control just because Marner may not sign here, not when every other team has figured out a way to configure their roster to the tune of achieving then required results in a far more timely manner than we have. You need not retreat to “realistically, what can be done?” We already know it can be it’s been proven a zillion times over. The moves Adams could make to improve or change the F group are literally uncountable there are so many variances of possibilities.

Edited Thursday at 04:24 PM by Thorner

[dudacek]

29 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think you are confusing top 3 in points with has to play to close out games. I don't think the next guy up is Quinn and Kulich, it is McLeod, Krebs, Benson, Greenway. 

Not confusing that at all.

Maybe a better way of saying it is:

I don’t think our 9 best defensive forwards currently are good enough defensively, particularly when 2 of them are as available as Norris and Greenway.

I also would say something similar about our 9 best ES forwards and or 9 best physical forwards.

I like our top 9 in terms of speed and skill.

[DarthEbriate]

34 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don't want to do any of these moves specifically. I'm just providing examples of the types of moves that could be made to address holes.

Of course only your way works when it's your video game, with your player and GM codes.

And I can intervene in a game after the 2nd period, score three times for the win, and ensure I make the playoffs. Then, I'll sim all the road games and intervene at home as necessary. Jump in in the final 5 minutes to see who gets to carry the Cup this season.

Win the Cup each season with all the coolest last names while making incredible bottom-6 GM contract decisions (Justin Bailey and Marcus Foligno to 8x$1.2M) and watch Ristolainen become a 1000 career point defenseman. It's easy!

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Not at all. I open to any idea that improves the team, but adding guys like Marner, Tavares and Ekblad is the definition of video game because they won't realistically sign here.  I'm fine with our idea of Pettersson and Demko for Tuch and Norris as that is a deal that could happen and it would give us a legit No .1 center and playmaker and it's an upgrade in goal.  I love @LGR4GM idea of signing Gavikov.  He'll be in demand also, but it something that $ might swing a deal to get him here, especially with all the young Russians in our organization.   I'm not fine with dumping a good young player for a declining vet on a long-term contract.  

You gave ideas where we trade JJP or Kulich, while also giving an idea to acquire Cuylie.  Cuylie is only  3 weeks younger than JJP and not nearly as productive.

Cuylie

23/24 81 gms 13g 8a  21 pts

24/25 78gms 18g 22a 40 pts (turned 23 Feb 4th)

JJP 

23/24 82 gms 28g 22a  50 pts

24/25 72 gms 24g 38a 62 pts (turned 23 Jan 14)

Also Cuylie's rookie season as 21/22 years old looks nearly identical as Kulich's 20 year old rookie season so far of 14g 8a in 57 games (He turns 21 on April 14th), except Kulich accomplished it younger and in less games.

 

 

Again, not really interested in debating any of my specific examples.

I think your proposed forward core as a whole needs to be harder and more reliable defensively.

Your response sounds an awful lot to me like “there’s no good way to do that”

I think that sounds like something Kevyn Adams would say.

And we go in circles.

[GASabresIUFAN]

25 minutes ago, Thorner said:

This is sort of the point. There’s a chasm between “Marner won’t sign here” and “TINKER ONLY” with the forwards. 

i don’t think anyone questions your grasp of contract and cap specifics but there’s no logical argument to retreat from there to “don’t really do much of anything to the F unit, by choice.” which is what you originally said.

At the end of the day, we know we shouldn’t be standing pat at F based on a macro look at the results beyond “they are top 10 in goals”, and especially not when there’s no reason to not go beyond “they’ll have a reasonable shot at it”, when playoffs are long past being the mandate 

On the other hand, it also can’t be framed as a choice beyond our control just because Marner may not sign here, not when every other team has figured out a way to configure their roster to the tune of achieving then required results in a far more timely manner than we have 

 

I guess I'll answer this post with an analogy.  Why haven't the Leafs, with all their fire power, won a Cup?  I trace it back to their signing of Tavares.  They were desperate for defense and goaltending like we are now, but instead spent their limited cap space on Tavares.  Only now have they finally found some goaltending and defense (still not enough) in Tavares' final year.  That contract not only cost them help on defense and in goal, but also cost them Hyman and Kadri who were heart and soul players their roster also needed.  

Marner is not a realistic option for the Sabres.  He won't come here.  However, let's say for arguments sake he would sign here.  How do we reasonable fit his $15 mill salary under our cap while also fixing the defense and goaltending? Toronto couldn't do it while trying to retain their good young players after they signed Tavares and I don't think we can either.

 

Edited Thursday at 04:37 PM by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I guess I'll answer this post with an analogy.  Why haven't the Leafs, with all their fire power, won a Cup?  I trace it back to their signing of Tavares.  They were desperate for defense and goaltending like we are now, but instead spent their limited cap space on Tavares.  Only now have they finally found some goaltending and defense (still not enough) in Tavares' final year.  That contract not only cost them help on defense and in goal, but also cost them Hyman and Kadri who were heart and soul players their roster also needed.  

Marner is not a realistic option for the Sabres.  He won't come here.  However, let's say for arguments sake he would sign here.  How do we reasonable fit his $15 mill salary under our cap while also fixing the defense and goaltending? Toronto couldn't do it while trying to retain their good young players after they signed Tavares and I don't think we can either.

 

I’d kill to be wondering why we haven’t won a cup. I just want to make the playoffs 

I just want the regular season to actually matter again. We aren’t even a part of the league: I honestly don’t care about a cup

we aren’t the leafs, we need to add everywhere right now, still. We are a team 11 points out of the playoffs and the cutoff line is abnormally low 

Edited Thursday at 04:46 PM by Thorner

[Thorner]

Besides that, Marner is good defensively, we need way better D from our forwards, and he’s one of the best point producers in the league. I keep making this argument cause it’s true: we aren’t nearing a cap on goals scored lol. If we are losing 4-3, “damn, our D!” but we add Marner and win 5-4, we still win based the added value of his goals. Yes we can address D and should and Marner helps but a goal for is still worth the same 

 

We aren’t near a “goals for” cap. We have room for Mitch Marner lol 

This whole thing is literally “we have no room for Kovalchuck”. We are living the meme in real time. Ya, a team 11 points out of the playoffs wouldn’t benefit from adding one of the best players in the world. What are we doing? You add him and worry about if you can “realistically” fix the D later 

IF he can be had. Not saying he can. But re: Marner this is about principle 

Edited Thursday at 04:54 PM by Thorner

[MISabresFan]

I would hire a hockey guy who can run this organization, making sure the owner has direct contact with this person and provides everything this position needs.  From there I would let that person decide on the who to hire for all positions - janitor, trainer, security guards, everyone.

Note- it needs to be a person with success in the nhl.

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Again, not really interested in debating any of my specific examples.

I think your proposed forward core as a whole needs to be harder and more reliable defensively.

Your response sounds an awful lot to me like “there’s no good way to do that”

I think that sounds like something Kevyn Adams would say.

And we go in circles.

I understand why people here think the forward group isn't reliable defensively and this was exceedingly true in the first half of this season, but I'm not sure that's the case any longer.   Dumping Cozens was a huge step in the right direction.  

They aren't "good" as a entire group, but they are ok.  Tuch, McLeod, Benson, Greenway, and Malenstyn are all good defensively.  Norris, when available is also good.  TNT is vastly improved and it's helped reignite his offense.  Krebs is adequate and Kulich is decent and improving.  Zucker has shown here much better two way play then I remember him on other teams.  JJP isn't good, but has been making an effort and isn't Skinner bad.  I'd argue that only JJP and Zucker are below average as defensive forwards.  Kozak, assuming he makes the team next year, is good defensively.

I'm sorry, but I no longer see this as a major issue for this team moving forward.  The Tuch, Greenway, Malenstyn, Norris and McLeod acquisitions helped in this area, as have the additions of Kozak, Benson and Kulich from the minors plus improvements from Krebs.  I think the Sabres have 6-7 decent to good defensive forwards to throw at end of game situations and that's plenty.  Also Östlund is good defensively and near NHL ready if we have to call someone up from the minors.  

                                                               

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 minutes ago, Thorner said:

I’d kill to be wondering why we haven’t won a cup. I just want to make the playoffs 

I just want the regular season to actually matter again. We aren’t even a part of the league: I honestly don’t care about a cup

we aren’t the leafs, we need to add everywhere right now, still. We are a team 11 points out of the playoffs and the cutoff line is abnormally low 

I'm right there with you brother, but I guess the main point of contention between us is I believe that fixing the coaching, defense and goaltending this off-season gets us to the playoffs next Spring. 

I am open to changes in the forwards, as I wrote in my plan post, especially involving Norris and Quinn.  My thought on the forwards is that anyone brought in has to bring a skill set we lack or don't have enough of.  For example playmakers or physical players.  Norris for Pettersson as the key players in a deal works for me.  Finding an upgrade for Greenway for the 3rd line works for me as well. If I can keep Greenway to bolster my 4th line all the better.   These deals just aren't my focus this off-season when we have disasters on defense and in goal that need to be addressed.  

 

 

[Mr Peabody]

Years ago I was a STH for the Syracuse Crunch and most of that time we were the farm team for Columbus.  They were bottom feeders and a very soft team.  Sound familiar?
 

In 2007 Columbus made a trade of minor leaguers with Anaheim.  Going to Anaheim were Mark Hartigan and Joe Motko.  Going to Syracuse from Portland were Curtis Glencross and Zenobia Konopka.  At the time Portland’s coach lauded the incredible leadership of Knopka. 

 That one trade completely turned around the culture and on ice performance of the Crunch.  Konopka’s NHL compare would be an AHL version of Brady Tkachuk.  My point is there is hope.  We need upgrades but we also need a guy who will knock down walls for his teammates. 

[Drag0nDan]

I'd probably identify the players I'm most inclined to trade

• Byram - Another lefty, top 5 pick pedigree, and RFA in line for a raise.  Probably the most valuable trade chip.  I'm not sure i see a reason to keep both him and power.
• Rosen - Pretty much graduated prospect, but does this team need another 22 year old?  Kulich, Benson, Quinn, JJP are all like 24 or under.  Good AHL numbers, he should have some value in a trade. 
• Quinn - His value is lower than it was before his injury issues and his generally terrible 24-25 campaign.  I don't think its a take your pick between him and rosen because they have different skill sets.  RFA as well, i would probably bridge if you could - similar to what they did with Tage, but likely a tad more expensive.  UFA 2029.
• JJP - Gonna be a substantial raise but the guy's played really well for us at times.  If moved he'd need to bring back a quality player.  
• Östlund - Not quite graduation ready - but if you're moving a player, prospect, and pick in a trade - he's probably up there with Rosen as a high value prospect trade chip. 
• Kulich - I feel like his development is what made savoie expendable so I'm inclined to keep him.  He's also dirt cheap through 2027.  Not untradeable for right return.  
• UPL - Well he flat out stunk this year.. but I don't think he's utterly worthless either.  I don't know what Levi is, but I find it hard to believe he can't be better than UPL's last 30 starts. San Jose maybe?  I know they have a young guy in Askarov who isn't quite ready, and the team is not close to being competitive.  No one under contract.  Maybe you could sell it to them as part of a move for Ferraro?  
• Samuelsson - I'd say he has little to no value because of his contract, but the league isn't blind to the fact that most players leave buffalo and play better.  Lean into that 🙂.  If that doesn't work, he's gotta be a buyout candidate imo.  It would be a 714k cap hit for the next 10 years which is less than an ELC.  He's not worth the current 4.2M cap hit - you also save 14M in cash.  

Not going to be able to move all of these players - but i'd prioritize moving UPL to figure out the players you want in net. 

What might it take to pry Robertson from Dallas for example (no clause, and an RFA in 2026 so if he doesn't want an extension you can definitely get a lot of the traded value back by moving him in the next 2 years)?  Heiskanen, Rantanen, Seguin, Hintz, Oettinger, and Johnston are all making 8M+, and Robertson is an RFA in 2026, so looking at some level of a raise soon..  Looking at their roster they probably aren't looking for a Byram (Heiskanen, lindell and harley are all lefties), but does JJP (will command less than 7.75M AAV for a few seasons) and either a rosen/Östlund (ELC player in their early 20's) and a pick fit the bill?  

Another idea could be working some kind of deal with the rangers who will probably want to re-tool.  Miller and byram swap lefties (and skill-sets), and maybe try and figure out how to get Schneider RHD or Cuylle in the deal.  Shesterkin, Fox, Panarin, zib, miller all make 8M+. Lafreniere's extension kicks off this year and he has no trade protection, but i think they'd probably more trocheck and Kreider who have m-ntc's (so not candidates to be moved to buffalo).  

 

[dudacek]

 

I might start the retool by hiring a PP coach who will build the PP around getting the puck to one of the NHL's best goal scorers.

Yes, last year's PP focused way too much getting the puck to Tage at the left circle.

The solution is to

a) take advantage of the other openings created by teams overcommitting to Tage, and

b) find ways to get the puck to Tage in other scoring positions

The solution is not to stop giving the puck to Tage in scoring positions

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I understand why people here think the forward group isn't reliable defensively and this was exceedingly true in the first half of this season, but I'm not sure that's the case any longer.   Dumping Cozens was a huge step in the right direction.  

They aren't "good" as a entire group, but they are ok.  Tuch, McLeod, Benson, Greenway, and Malenstyn are all good defensively.  Norris, when available is also good.  TNT is vastly improved and it's helped reignite his offense.  Krebs is adequate and Kulich is decent and improving.  Zucker has shown here much better two way play then I remember him on other teams.  JJP isn't good, but has been making an effort and isn't Skinner bad.  I'd argue that only JJP and Zucker are below average as defensive forwards.  Kozak, assuming he makes the team next year, is good defensively.                                                               

I think the only person you're missing who is poor defensively is Quinn. But, if he's scoring points, especially on the PP, then it can work. Every team can afford to have that one guy who might be a bit of an unplugged controller from time-to-time in their d-zone if they're constantly menacing the opposition team in the o-zone.

[Thorner]

26 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

I might start the retool by hiring a PP coach who will build the PP around getting the puck to one of the NHL's best goal scorers.

Yes, last year's PP focused way too much getting the puck to Tage at the left circle.

The solution is to

a) take advantage of the other openings created by teams overcommitting to Tage, and

b) find ways to get the puck to Tage in other scoring positions

The solution is not to stop giving the puck to Tage in scoring positions

People talk a lot about fixing the PP but the easiest fix could be an actual creative playmaker who will find Tage in all the right spots 

[LGR4GM]

43 minutes ago, Thorner said:

People talk a lot about fixing the PP but the easiest fix could be an actual creative playmaker who will find Tage in all the right spots 

Rasmus Dahlin is on our pp and it still sucks. We need to fire Appert and bring a legit PP guru. 

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Rasmus Dahlin is on our pp and it still sucks. We need to fire Appert and bring a legit PP guru. 

Always liked how Eichel distributed on the half wall 

[thewookie1]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Rasmus Dahlin is on our pp and it still sucks. We need to fire Appert and bring a legit PP guru. 

I'd say Dahlin isn't perfect as the primary QB

He's a wizard with the puck and a high level thinker but seems to lack a certain artistic view.

Just now, Thorner said:

Always liked how Eichel distributed on the half wall 

 I can't deny I agree with you. Eichel definitely had an artistic flare to playmaking that Dahlin doesn't. Dahlin can match Eichel for effective passing and the like but lacks that one ingredient, that cherry on the sundae type, of innovativeness when on the PP. Dahlin does however have to deal with higher risk being a the point and the wall opposite of Tage tending to overplay the puck more often than not. 

[Stads]

 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Thorner said:

People talk a lot about fixing the PP but the easiest fix could be an actual creative playmaker who will find Tage in all the right spots 

Its too bad someone like Mitch Marner isn't available.

But really, our forwards are fine, right?

Edited Thursday at 10:06 PM by dudacek

[Believer]

6 hours ago, Thorner said:

We already know it can be it’s been proven a zillion times over. The moves Adams could make to improve or change the F group are literally uncountable there are so many variances of possibilities.

Truth.

[ska-T Palmtown]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm sorry, but I no longer see this as a major issue for this team moving forward.  The Tuch, Greenway, Malenstyn, Norris and McLeod acquisitions helped in this area, as have the additions of Kozak, Benson and Kulich from the minors plus improvements from Krebs.  I think the Sabres have 6-7 decent to good defensive forwards to throw at end of game situations and that's plenty.  Also Östlund is good defensively and near NHL ready if we have to call someone up from the minors.  

                                                               

I still have PTSD from their heroic run to 9th a few seasons ago. Suddenly they were playing tight D, controlling the puck and scoring just enough to win. It was incredible. I was standing at full attention as to what the following year would be ... then we saw it. I just can't buy into these late season mirages.

Marner is ideal. Scoring, playmaking, and upper end defensive skills for a forward. I realize cap hell is the future if they go that way. But ... why can't they be the team that takes the swing and attempts to defy all the odds? 

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 hours ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

I still have PTSD from their heroic run to 9th a few seasons ago. Suddenly they were playing tight D, controlling the puck and scoring just enough to win. It was incredible.

A very different roster.  Olofsson, Mitts, Skinner, KO, Girgensons, Jost, and Cozens are all gone from that roster.  They have been replaced by Benson, Malenstyn, Norris, McLeod, Kulich and Zucker.  Joki has also been replaced by Bernard-Docker, Lyubushkin with Clifton and Bryson was demoted from top 6 to extra to make room essentially for Byram.  

The teams just aren't the same and the forward group is much better defensively.

As to Marner, he may be literally "available" but his agent isn't taking or returning Adams' calls.  I find it funny that anyone actually thinks he might come here.  

Edited Friday at 05:36 AM by GASabresIUFAN

[thewookie1]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

A very different roster.  Olofsson, Mitts, Skinner, KO, Girgensons, Jost, and Cozens are all gone from that roster.  They have been replaced by Benson, Malenstyn, Norris, McLeod, Kulich and Zucker.  Joki has also been replaced by Bernard-Docker, Lyubushkin with Clifton and Bryson was demoted from top 6 to extra to make room essentially for Byram.  

The teams just aren't the same and the forward group is much better defensively.

As to Marner, he may be literally "available" but his agent isn't taking or returning Adams' calls.  I find it funny that anyone actually thinks he might come here.  

He's from Toronto so the idea would be he wants to stay home but Toronto won't give him the money so he stays close to home.

[Huckleberry]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

A very different roster.  Olofsson, Mitts, Skinner, KO, Girgensons, Jost, and Cozens are all gone from that roster.  They have been replaced by Benson, Malenstyn, Norris, McLeod, Kulich and Zucker.  Joki has also been replaced by Bernard-Docker, Lyubushkin with Clifton and Bryson was demoted from top 6 to extra to make room essentially for Byram.  

The teams just aren't the same and the forward group is much better defensively.

As to Marner, he may be literally "available" but his agent isn't taking or returning Adams' calls.  I find it funny that anyone actually thinks he might come here.  

Don't think Adams is even allowed to call him already, and also how would you know ? 🙂