If we trade Byram or Power, who for?

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Trading Power is something we will regret in a couple years. Byram can go yesterday as afaic. 

They at least have to give him another year, maybe find a better complimentary RHD for him too.  Pretty basic stuff.  

[K-9]

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

They at least have to give him another year, maybe find a better complimentary RHD for him too.  Pretty basic stuff.  

He’s only 22 and D men, especially tall, lanky D men can take a while,  so I’d say at least another two or three years. And a complimentary partner is paramount, regardless. 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

He’s only 22 and D men, especially tall, lanky D men can take a while,  so I’d say at least another two or three years. And a complimentary partner is paramount, regardless. 

He's never going to be a physical player. You can call him lanky and we can talk about his strength etc... it isn't who he will ever be. He's bryson with better reach and skills. 

[K-9]

33 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He's never going to be a physical player. You can call him lanky and we can talk about his strength etc... it isn't who he will ever be. He's bryson with better reach and skills. 

I’ll let you know if I agree in a couple years. And I’m more concerned with his hockey sense than I am his lack of physicality currently. 

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Trading Power is something we will regret in a couple years. Byram can go yesterday as afaic. 

Again, I'm not eager to trade Power.  But, doesn't your statement make the assumption that we don't get a comparable player in return?  There is always risk in a trade, but aside from one or two posters who think we will be better if we just dump Power, nobody is suggesting we trade him for less than fair value.

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I wonder if you can flip Byram to NYR for Schneider. Not saying 1 for 1 but that would be a trade that I could see as NYR's have Fox and Borgen on the right side already. Miller is there on the left side but Byram has more offense than any of their other defenders outside of Fox. Just curious if there could be a deal made there. 

My math has the Rangers coming in at about $10 million under the cap with K. Miller and Cuyle as RFA's.  They would likely need to move out a contract to get Byram signed. Schneider and Cuyle for Byram and Quinn? 

[K-9]

20 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Again, I'm not eager to trade Power.  But, doesn't your statement make the assumption that we don't get a comparable player in return?  There is always risk in a trade, but aside from one or two posters who think we will be better if we just dump Power, nobody is suggesting we trade him for less than fair value.

Imo, since Power isn’t the dominant player I predict he will be in 2-3 years then no, we won’t get a comparable player in return. 

[Jorcus]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

He’s only 22 and D men, especially tall, lanky D men can take a while,  so I’d say at least another two or three years. And a complimentary partner is paramount, regardless. 

I was going to point this out somewhere I guess this thread is as good as any about player development and time. Maybe this is all BS and it has more to do with point production but there is a point here about player progression.

 

https://dobberhockey.com/2022/06/30/breakout-threshold-bt-using-career-games-played-to-determine-breakout-potential/

The main claim of this article are as follows.

 

Average-sized forwards (between 5-10 and 6-2, or between 171 and 214 pounds) need 200 NHL regular season games to figure it out. At that point, they should show what they will be when fully developed. The player is comfortable with the pace of the game and the power of opposing players and it starts to show in his production. The uptick in production is sharp and noticeable. Generally speaking, with lots of leeway and exceptions, of course, look for 25% or higher year-over-year increase. That doesn’t mean these players have peaked. Once they hit that breakout threshold (BT), these players should continue to improve for several more years and should hit the pinnacle of production between the ages of 25 and 28. Forwards then play at or near this level until approximately 32 years of age (unless they are generational players such as Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin, who could keep producing at an incredible rate well into their late 30s). At this point, when it generally comes to average-sized players, they begin to decline. Some skilled defensemen of average size may also use this 200-game BT as well.

Bigger defensemen and exceptionally-sized forwards need 400 NHL regular-season games. We define 'exceptional' here as 5-9, or 170 pounds or less, on the small side, while on the bigger end we use 6-3, 215 pounds, or more. For monster forwards, this is due to simple physics. It takes longer to adapt to your body. A lot of these kids were 5-11 at age 16 and suddenly at age 18, they are 6-4 and weigh an additional 30 pounds. They need a bit more time for their hands and feet to catch up to what they were doing as a teenager and they take time to figure out that they can use their size and strength to their advantage. For diminutive forwards, they take longer to adapt to the new speed. They dominated junior hockey with quickness and fancy moves and some adjustments need to be made (and some never make them). These smaller forwards also take longer to earn more opportunities from coaches who tend to lean on the bigger players. Defensemen take longer to learn the defensive side of the game and earn the coach's trust.

Our Current team in terms of games played excluding rookies. 

Benson  137

Docker 135

Bryson 251

Byram  237

Clifton 375

Dahlin 500

Greenway 435

Lafferty 340

Malenstyn 174

McLeod  289

Norris 239

Peterka 229

Power 236

Quinn 169

Samuelsson 203

Tage 439

Tuch 527

Zucker 761

Krebs 287

It makes you wonder what the future holds for NHL careers for a number of these players. Power, Byram and even Samuelsson would be on the path you would expect a jump out of them. Malenstyn is an interesting candidate to break out. The hope is we have not seen the best of Peterka and Norris yet. Well we have not even seen Norris. Some of the other guys need more games or have enough that we pretty much know what they can do.  

[steveoath]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

Schneider and Cuyle for Byram and Quinn? 

Done. I’ll fly over and drive them to the contract signing myself !!

Edited March 31 by steveoath

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

Trading Power is something we will regret in a couple years. Byram can go yesterday as afaic. 

You are astute and perspicacious. 😀

My position on retaining Power is resolute. Although I do like the play of Byram, if he can bring back a second-line forward in a trade. or even a rugged second-pairing defensive blueliner, I would be receptive to a deal. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

53 minutes ago, Jorcus said:

I was going to point this out somewhere I guess this thread is as good as any about player development and time. Maybe this is all BS and it has more to do with point production but there is a point here about player progression.

 

https://dobberhockey.com/2022/06/30/breakout-threshold-bt-using-career-games-played-to-determine-breakout-potential/

The main claim of this article are as follows.

 

Average-sized forwards (between 5-10 and 6-2, or between 171 and 214 pounds) need 200 NHL regular season games to figure it out. At that point, they should show what they will be when fully developed. The player is comfortable with the pace of the game and the power of opposing players and it starts to show in his production. The uptick in production is sharp and noticeable. Generally speaking, with lots of leeway and exceptions, of course, look for 25% or higher year-over-year increase. That doesn’t mean these players have peaked. Once they hit that breakout threshold (BT), these players should continue to improve for several more years and should hit the pinnacle of production between the ages of 25 and 28. Forwards then play at or near this level until approximately 32 years of age (unless they are generational players such as Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin, who could keep producing at an incredible rate well into their late 30s). At this point, when it generally comes to average-sized players, they begin to decline. Some skilled defensemen of average size may also use this 200-game BT as well.

Bigger defensemen and exceptionally-sized forwards need 400 NHL regular-season games. We define 'exceptional' here as 5-9, or 170 pounds or less, on the small side, while on the bigger end we use 6-3, 215 pounds, or more. For monster forwards, this is due to simple physics. It takes longer to adapt to your body. A lot of these kids were 5-11 at age 16 and suddenly at age 18, they are 6-4 and weigh an additional 30 pounds. They need a bit more time for their hands and feet to catch up to what they were doing as a teenager and they take time to figure out that they can use their size and strength to their advantage. For diminutive forwards, they take longer to adapt to the new speed. They dominated junior hockey with quickness and fancy moves and some adjustments need to be made (and some never make them). These smaller forwards also take longer to earn more opportunities from coaches who tend to lean on the bigger players. Defensemen take longer to learn the defensive side of the game and earn the coach's trust.

Our Current team in terms of games played excluding rookies. 

Benson  137

Docker 135

Bryson 251

Byram  237

Clifton 375

Dahlin 500

Greenway 435

Lafferty 340

Malenstyn 174

McLeod  289

Norris 239

Peterka 229

Power 236

Quinn 169

Samuelsson 203

Tage 439

Tuch 527

Zucker 761

Krebs 287

It makes you wonder what the future holds for NHL careers for a number of these players. Power, Byram and even Samuelsson would be on the path you would expect a jump out of them. Malenstyn is an interesting candidate to break out. The hope is we have not seen the best of Peterka and Norris yet. Well we have not even seen Norris. Some of the other guys need more games or have enough that we pretty much know what they can do.  

Ok, but how big are these guys and over how many seasons were those NHL games accumulated.  There is a huge difference between someone playing 200 games in 2.5 years vs someone playing 200 games over 4 years.

[Huckleberry]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I wonder if you can flip Byram to NYR for Schneider. Not saying 1 for 1 but that would be a trade that I could see as NYR's have Fox and Borgen on the right side already. Miller is there on the left side but Byram has more offense than any of their other defenders outside of Fox. Just curious if there could be a deal made there. 

God , they been glamouring for a Lafreniere for Dahlin deal all year long, would be funny if we send them Byram and get Schneider + + back 🙂

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Jorcus said:

I was going to point this out somewhere I guess this thread is as good as any about player development and time. Maybe this is all BS and it has more to do with point production but there is a point here about player progression.

 

https://dobberhockey.com/2022/06/30/breakout-threshold-bt-using-career-games-played-to-determine-breakout-potential/

The main claim of this article are as follows.

 

Average-sized forwards (between 5-10 and 6-2, or between 171 and 214 pounds) need 200 NHL regular season games to figure it out. At that point, they should show what they will be when fully developed. The player is comfortable with the pace of the game and the power of opposing players and it starts to show in his production. The uptick in production is sharp and noticeable. Generally speaking, with lots of leeway and exceptions, of course, look for 25% or higher year-over-year increase. That doesn’t mean these players have peaked. Once they hit that breakout threshold (BT), these players should continue to improve for several more years and should hit the pinnacle of production between the ages of 25 and 28. Forwards then play at or near this level until approximately 32 years of age (unless they are generational players such as Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin, who could keep producing at an incredible rate well into their late 30s). At this point, when it generally comes to average-sized players, they begin to decline. Some skilled defensemen of average size may also use this 200-game BT as well.

Bigger defensemen and exceptionally-sized forwards need 400 NHL regular-season games. We define 'exceptional' here as 5-9, or 170 pounds or less, on the small side, while on the bigger end we use 6-3, 215 pounds, or more. For monster forwards, this is due to simple physics. It takes longer to adapt to your body. A lot of these kids were 5-11 at age 16 and suddenly at age 18, they are 6-4 and weigh an additional 30 pounds. They need a bit more time for their hands and feet to catch up to what they were doing as a teenager and they take time to figure out that they can use their size and strength to their advantage. For diminutive forwards, they take longer to adapt to the new speed. They dominated junior hockey with quickness and fancy moves and some adjustments need to be made (and some never make them). These smaller forwards also take longer to earn more opportunities from coaches who tend to lean on the bigger players. Defensemen take longer to learn the defensive side of the game and earn the coach's trust.

Our Current team in terms of games played excluding rookies. 

Benson  137

Docker 135

Bryson 251

Byram  237

Clifton 375

Dahlin 500

Greenway 435

Lafferty 340

Malenstyn 174

McLeod  289

Norris 239

Peterka 229

Power 236

Quinn 169

Samuelsson 203

Tage 439

Tuch 527

Zucker 761

Krebs 287

It makes you wonder what the future holds for NHL careers for a number of these players. Power, Byram and even Samuelsson would be on the path you would expect a jump out of them. Malenstyn is an interesting candidate to break out. The hope is we have not seen the best of Peterka and Norris yet. Well we have not even seen Norris. Some of the other guys need more games or have enough that we pretty much know what they can do.  

Stop using facts.

Back to Power, here is a Dahlin thread from early in his 4th season.

Sound at all familiar?

 

 

 

[Thorny]

On 11/30/2021 at 10:51 AM, Thorner said:

The thing is, there are positive results there already depending on where you look - Dahlin leads the team in assists. At his age that's still impressive, even given our roster. There's a lot of bad with a lot of good - I'm still eager to see how it plays out as opposed to worried. 

Ya, I’ll “stay”

[K-9]

34 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Stop using facts.

Back to Power, here is a Dahlin thread from early in his 4th season.

Sound at all familiar?

 

 

 

I predict many of the takes on Power these days will age the same way as those four year old takes on Dahlin did.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I predict many of the takes on Power these days will age the same way as those four year old takes on Dahlin did.

One of the primary reasons why there is a distaste for Power here is his playing style. He's not a banger, never was and never projected to be that type of bullish player. He's more of a skater and positional/finesse type defenseman who is still learning how to play. Too many people expected him to be a defenseman who wiped out players hovering around the net. That's not his game and never will be. He was wrongly stereotyped, and when his play didn't match the expected stereotype, he was deemed as a failure. 

It took some time for Tage Thompson to physically mature and become a primary player for us. I also believe that after Power goes through the same physical maturation process he will become one of the better blueliners in the league. Only time will tell. I'm very comfortable with my evaluation of him. 

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

God , they been glamouring for a Lafreniere for Dahlin deal all year long, would be funny if we send them Byram and get Schneider + + back 🙂

They have? F them Rangers. 

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I predict many of the takes on Power these days will age the same way as those four year old takes on Dahlin did.

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

They have? F them Rangers. 

He won’t be as good (he was never going to be) but in many ways the takes are worse now because we’ve seen this pattern replicate multiple times 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

God , they been glamouring for a Lafreniere for Dahlin deal all year long, would be funny if we send them Byram and get Schneider + + back 🙂

LOL.  Why on G-d's green earth would we trade an eilte two way defender for a 45-50 point winger making 7.5 a year for the next 7 years on a new contract.  That contract is almost as stupid as the one given Power.  I wouldn't even trade Power for Lafreniere.   

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Thorner said:

He won’t be as good (he was never going to be) but in many ways the takes are worse now because we’ve seen this pattern replicate multiple times 

I think Power can be a decent #2 and a #1 pp guy. His defensive game isn't anywhere near as bad as the majority opinion around here. 

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

LOL.  Why on G-d's green earth would we trade an eilte two way defender for a 45-50 point winger making 7.5 a year for the next 7 years on a new contract.  That contract is almost as stupid as the one given Power.  I wouldn't even trade Power for Lafreniere.   

Ranger fans are dumb at trades. They make Roy for Malkin look legit.