The Sabres' Fan Mutiny Has Begun

[Mango]

4 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Wasn't the culture change the entire goal of the last rebuild? Jettison Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, Ullmark, (sure, Ristolainen, too) to bring in the right guys: Tuch and...Hagg, and let TNT, Cozens, Samuelsson bloom, under the guidance of Okposo as the then-captain).

A communications disruption culture change can mean only one thing: a new GM. (Unless you already have Adams, in which case it will be to get rid of the leadership players with the most value around the league who will eventually stop wanting to be here: Dahlin, TNT, Tuch, JJP.)

I guess that is sort of my point. 

I think the roster is likely to get rid of the loudest/laziest/most useless and help get some of the top talent that may also be sort of floaters a bit of help. I envision the young guys like Kulich and Benson will push the Peterka's and Quinns but they need some more help from veterans above them to pull them along. Moving Cozens I think is a part of that. 

The dissent in the FO will be that Adams built this team around Cozens, Power, and Muel. They are soft and lazy. Now it is time to tell them to fall in line or GTFO. 

The culture change I think Lindy is pushing is "show up or get out". The culture change that Adams pushed was "please be nice or we will trade you to the most favorable destination possible"

[Weave]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

More than most that video avoided the true story here.

This trade wasn’t about the Sabres deciding they needed Josh Norris; it was about the Sabres deciding they needed to move on from Dylan Cozens.

It was pretty clear between the cuts that an organizational decision had been made that they wanted to move Cozens and that he was being shopped around the league for the best return. This was a building block player they had signed to a $50M deal just two years before.

• We didn’t see the debate leading up to the decision Cozens had to be moved
• We didn’t see how he was being shopped and what the other offers were
• We didn’t see the debate about those offers
• We didn’t see the other players who may have been shopped for similar reasons

My takeaway is that discussions upstairs have centred around figuring out why their plan has failed and what they need to do to fix it.

”Culture” seems like convenient code for “players we might have been wrong about”. And they do seem to be leaning on Lindy as a bit of an external arbiter for those decisions, since he doesn’t own them.

Tim Murray got fired in part because he apparently was surprised by his own mistakes and had no plan to pivot.

Not sure why we should expect Kevyn Adams to be any different.

We didn’t see everything, but what we did see did not look like a confident bunch.

The first part is an interesting take.  Very plausible.  Thanks for sharing.

[Weave]

43 minutes ago, Mango said:

I guess that is sort of my point. 

I think the roster is likely to get rid of the loudest/laziest/most useless and help get some of the top talent that may also be sort of floaters a bit of help. I envision the young guys like Kulich and Benson will push the Peterka's and Quinns but they need some more help from veterans above them to pull them along. Moving Cozens I think is a part of that. 

The dissent in the FO will be that Adams built this team around Cozens, Power, and Muel. They are soft and lazy. Now it is time to tell them to fall in line or GTFO. 

The culture change I think Lindy is pushing is "show up or get out". The culture change that Adams pushed was "please be nice or we will trade you to the most favorable destination possible"

I disagree on the lazy part.  I don’t get the sense that this group is lacking in effort.  And regarding Cozens specifically, soft is not a word I would use to describe him.

Cozens in particular has looked shellshocked in interviews.  I think the failures here aren’t related to laziness or softness in the roster.  I think as a whole these players are simply overwhelmed by the enormity of the task before them.

More battle tested ***** veterans, Kevyn.  Ffs its been 14 seasons.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

More than most that video avoided the true story here.

This trade wasn’t about the Sabres deciding they needed Josh Norris; it was about the Sabres deciding they needed to move on from Dylan Cozens.

It was pretty clear between the cuts that an organizational decision had been made that they wanted to move Cozens and that he was being shopped around the league for the best return. This was a building block player they had signed to a $50M deal just two years before.

• We didn’t see the debate leading up to the decision Cozens had to be moved
• We didn’t see how he was being shopped and what the other offers were
• We didn’t see the debate about those offers
• We didn’t see the other players who may have been shopped for similar reasons

My takeaway is that discussions upstairs have centred around figuring out why their plan has failed and what they need to do to fix it.

”Culture” seems like convenient code for “players we might have been wrong about”. And they do seem to be leaning on Lindy as a bit of an external arbiter for those decisions, since he doesn’t own them.

Tim Murray got fired in part because he apparently was surprised by his own mistakes and had no plan to pivot.

Not sure why we should expect Kevyn Adams to be any different.

We didn’t see everything, but what we did see did not look like a confident bunch.

That’s embarrassing if true

identifying things that don’t work is the only easy part. If the return doesn’t matter nearly as much, they aren’t focusing on the actual building blocks of winning. 

This is repeated behaviour with Adams. Cut Skinner, worry about rest later. Don’t sign Ullmark, worry about goaltending later (still worrying). Now this 

No need to identify a solution in a timely matter. The vacant hole on the roster can be filled with development 

The actual plan 

Edited Thursday at 04:17 PM by Thorner

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Thorner said:

That’s embarrassing if true

identifying things that don’t work is the only easy part. If the return doesn’t matter nearly as much, they aren’t focusing on the actual building blocks of winning. 

This is repeated behaviour with Adams. Cut Skinner, worry about rest later. Don’t sign Ullmark, worry about goaltending later (still worrying). Now this 

Adams barely can think 1 step ahead, let a lone the 3 or 4 needed to make an NHL function. 

[Thorner]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Adams barely can think 1 step ahead, let a lone the 3 or 4 needed to make an NHL function. 

The last thing he’d want to do is lay out actual goals because then he could be evaluated against them 

He has the concept of a plan 

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Thorner said:

The last thing he’d want to do is lay out actual goals because then he could be evaluated against them 

He has the concept of a plan 

He's the rfk jr of Gms

[Thorner]

Also Norris makes 8 million dollars haha. It can’t just be addition by subtraction/Sabre must really believe in him 

not that otherwise is suggested specifically in this thread but I’ve seen it 

Edited Thursday at 04:45 PM by Thorner

[Mango]

50 minutes ago, Weave said:

I disagree on the lazy part.  I don’t get the sense that this group is lacking in effort.  And regarding Cozens specifically, soft is not a word I would use to describe him.

Cozens in particular has looked shellshocked in interviews.  I think the failures here aren’t related to laziness or softness in the roster.  I think as a whole these players are simply overwhelmed by the enormity of the task before them.

More battle tested ***** veterans, Kevyn.  Ffs its been 14 seasons.

This is fair. I was just painting with a broad brush for the group. 

Cozens was often lost out there on the ice as a player and lost in the locker room as a leader. Having a performative leader in the locker room isn't healthy. 

[DarthEbriate]

40 minutes ago, Thorner said:

The last thing he’d want to do is lay out actual goals because then he could be evaluated against them 

He has the concept of a plan 

When Han Indy says, "I don't know. I'm making this up as I go," it's endearing because he's the hero and we know he has the Plot Armor to help him survive getting shot, riding under a truck, breathing for hundreds of miles on a submerged submarine, and withstanding the Wrath of God by closing his eyes.

But Sheevyn isn't the hero. He's the villain. Villains need to have plans. Master Plans. Sometimes incomprehensible and convoluted, and sometimes diabolical, but always a plan that they can tell us all about while cackling over their own Awesomeness.

Adams' plan is: "Wait another year; they'll all be a year older." Though, he might have to shed salary to stay EEEconomical.

If that were the villain's plan in a movie, you'd walk out the theatre/stop the stream.

[Weave]

27 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

When Han Indy says, "I don't know. I'm making this up as I go," it's endearing because he's the hero and we know he has the Plot Armor to help him survive getting shot, riding under a truck, breathing for hundreds of miles on a submerged submarine, and withstanding the Wrath of God by closing his eyes.

But Sheevyn isn't the hero. He's the villain. Villains need to have plans. Master Plans. Sometimes incomprehensible and convoluted, and sometimes diabolical, but always a plan that they can tell us all about while cackling over their own Awesomeness.

Adams' plan is: "Wait another year; they'll all be a year older." Though, he might have to shed salary to stay EEEconomical.

If that were the villain's plan in a movie, you'd walk out the theatre/stop the stream.

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Kevyn Adams should be fired because his plan has objectively failed and that is how pro sports works.

It’s not personal and it’s not complicated.

What's obvious to you, me and most of the audience apparently isn't obvious to the owner. What's perplexing is that with the football team he exhibited no reluctance to make changes when the results were unsatisfactory. Why is that so? Probably because the GM is fine with placating the owner's whims. On this forum, I can't recall anyone believing that KA has done a credible job. And whether we like it or not that the only voice that counts is the owner's. Just maybe Ruff might start to have more influence within the operation and ownership and guide it on a better path. 

[Carmel Corn]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Kevyn Adams should be fired. He's incompetent at best and has a loser mentality at worst. 

I almost think he’s a bit cocky too about himself….and certainly with no reason (based on his results).  He has stated multiple times that he “knows” what it takes to win, but he and only he (and Terry) actually believe this to be the case.

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What's obvious to you, me and most of the audience apparently isn't obvious to the owner. What's perplexing is that with the football team he exhibited no reluctance to make changes when the results were unsatisfactory. Why is that so? Probably because the GM is fine with placating the owner's whims. On this forum, I can't recall anyone believing that KA has done a credible job. And whether we like it or not that the only voice that counts is the owner's. Just maybe Ruff might start to have more influence within the operation and ownership and guide it on a better path. 

Pegula is not reluctant to make changes.

He’s hired and or fired Ruff, Regier, Rolston, Lafontaine, Patrick, Nolan, Murray, Bylsma, Botterill, Housley, Krueger, Adams, Granato - that’s not an abnormal amount of key leaders over 14 years for a pro sports team.

What’s weird is why he fired them.

• Darcy was never fully explained but he was canned 20 games into a tank Pegula ordered, so that wasn’t about performance.
• Patty left after some secret behind-the-scenes meltdown
• Murray was canned, basically, for embarrassing behaviour.
• Botterill for insubordination and “poor communication”

None of these guys were cut because of performance.

As I’ve said many times, pro sports is a results-based business. It’s the crucible that forges both the athletes and the people that guide them.

If you’re looking for what’s been lacking in the Buffalo Sabres “culture,” I don’t think you need to look much further.

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Pegula is not reluctant to make changes.

He’s hired and or fired Ruff, Regier, Rolston, Lafontaine, Patrick, Nolan, Murray, Bylsma, Botterill, Housley, Krueger, Adams, Granato - that’s not an abnormal amount of key leaders over 14 years for a pro sports team.

What’s weird is why he fired them.

• Darcy was never fully explained but he was canned 20 games into a tank Pegula ordered, so that wasn’t about performance.
• Patty left after some secret behind-the-scenes meltdown
• Murray was canned, basically, for embarrassing behaviour.
• Botterill for insubordination and “poor communication”

None of these guys were cut because of performance.

As I’ve said many times, pro sports is a results-based business. It’s the crucible that forges both the athletes and the people that guide them.

If you’re looking for what’s been lacking in the Buffalo Sabres “culture,” I don’t think you need to look much further.

As you and everyone has noted, KA has a record. To put it mildly, it is not stellar. And as you noted, in sports there is a very understandable metric to judge by: One's record. I guess the owner is comfortable working with the current GM. Maybe because the GM is very willing accommodate the owner's whims? Ownership allows ownership prerogatives. It's tough to accept as a fan but it is a fact of life. 

As I stated in a prior post, my hope is that with Ruff having a better grasp on building a roster, the GM and owner will be receptive to his contributing thoughts.  

[sabremike]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Pegula is not reluctant to make changes.

He’s hired and or fired Ruff, Regier, Rolston, Lafontaine, Patrick, Nolan, Murray, Bylsma, Botterill, Housley, Krueger, Adams, Granato - that’s not an abnormal amount of key leaders over 14 years for a pro sports team.

What’s weird is why he fired them.

• Darcy was never fully explained but he was canned 20 games into a tank Pegula ordered, so that wasn’t about performance.
• Patty left after some secret behind-the-scenes meltdown
• Murray was canned, basically, for embarrassing behaviour.
• Botterill for insubordination and “poor communication”

None of these guys were cut because of performance.

As I’ve said many times, pro sports is a results-based business. It’s the crucible that forges both the athletes and the people that guide them.

If you’re looking for what’s been lacking in the Buffalo Sabres “culture,” I don’t think you need to look much further.

 

[That Aud Smell]

12 minutes ago, sabremike said:

 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Carmel Corn said:

I almost think he’s a bit cocky too about himself….and certainly with no reason (based on his results).  He has stated multiple times that he “knows” what it takes to win, but he and only he (and Terry) actually believe this to be the case.

I used to laugh when he says that, but now I get pissed.  His job performance says otherwise.  

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, 7+6=13 said:

You're a narcissist and I question your human decency, at minimum.  

How you constantly talk about another human being as if you know the person will such vitriol, is sick.  All this from a person that wouldn't even care if Buffalo lost the team. Yet you come here non-stop spewing the same nonsense and then try to pretend it's about a team you don't care about?  Wow!

This is obnoxious and offensive. 

[matter2003]

5 hours ago, Mango said:

I have been screaming this. 

McBeane run a masterclass at manipulating and controlling Pegula!

It is the number one reason I have zero interest in moving on from either of them. The moment you bring in a new third to that relationship is the moment that the Bills could take a dramatic slide. 

More like the NFL prints money while the NHL is a charity case.

The Bills, one of the lowest valued NFL franchises, is worth 1.4 Billion more than the most valuable NHL franchise, the Maple Leafs.

Just shows the huge disparity in terms of what each league is working with.

There are players in the NFL that are paid almost what the NHL salary cap is for each team total.

Edited Thursday at 08:58 PM by matter2003

[7+6=13]

49 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is obnoxious and offensive. 

I appreciate that.  It's how I meant it.  You offended me first and I'm not backing down.

[Sidc3000]

15 hours ago, Thorner said:

I’m not sure what deserves revolt if not this 

 

Development isn’t a straight line?? It wasn’t a development year. Odd talk from a guy saying playoffs were the mandate this year

More than that, it’s completely insulting.

They are making this too easy 

The question I have after seeing this post is, did the Sabres never track or emphasize off season workouts? That would explain why several players seemed like they were not in shape or developed further in the off season when a new season began. That’s could be why several players are consistently injured like Muel and Quinn. 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Sidc3000 said:

The question I have after seeing this post is, did the Sabres never track or emphasize off season workouts? That would explain why several players seemed like they were not in shape or developed further in the off season when a new season began. That’s could be why several players are consistently injured like Muel and Quinn. 

Not to come off as a dick but are you serious? Jack Quinn literally hurt his Achilles working out, in the offseason. 

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

I almost think he’s a bit cocky too about himself….and certainly with no reason (based on his results).  He has stated multiple times that he “knows” what it takes to win, but he and only he (and Terry) actually believe this to be the case.

That’s why I never understand the people that will carry water for him just because there are other incompetent people around too. He’s not likeable. I have no comment on him personally but as a general manager he comes off like a smug, arrogant doofus 

This event represents a low point in my 38 years as a fan

I’m not sure they realize how tone deaf they are 

[Thorner]

18 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

The question I have after seeing this post is, did the Sabres never track or emphasize off season workouts? That would explain why several players seemed like they were not in shape or developed further in the off season when a new season began. That’s could be why several players are consistently injured like Muel and Quinn. 

The Sabres are always like, “this year we learn to play defence!” 

“this year we learn to play as a team!”

”this year we’ll work out properly in the offseason!” 

they aren’t in the business of winning, they are a tax write off 

Edited Thursday at 09:39 PM by Thorner