Interesting Tidbit from John Wawrow

[Pimlach]

31 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

and under Granato we were 1 point away from the playoffs. Great, Ruff had one good year with the Devils, fantastic. 

I just accurately answered his question. 

[xzy89c1]

On 3/19/2025 at 8:31 AM, ska-T Palmtown said:

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/196791/revenue-of-the-buffalo-sabres-since-2006/#:~:text=The annual National Hockey League,in the 2023%2F24 season.

No idea how stadium upkeep, etc is figured into this number - but sure does not seem like he is losing an average of $30M per year.

More info from Forbes. Looks like the only person you need to "know" is Google:
https://www.forbes.com/teams/buffalo-sabres/

Operating income by year, 2024 being on the left:

From rough math, since 2015 he would be ~+5M. (in the article you can hover and get numbers for each year.

teams like Toronto, NY, Boston etc... can charge 5x what sabres do and they sell out the suites for a much higher multiple than that. Sabres do not sell out the suites today. Sabres are only team in NHL that offer the opposing teams a free suite to use. Only team. 

The report i referenced was only the tickets and suites not the purchases during the game. Prices for concessions are far higher in other buildings.

The losses are an all in number. Do not doubt at all they lost that much. 30 million a year when your expenses are similar to the high revenue teams, but your revenue is far below is a realistic number. Would only be worse since COVID and the attendance being so low.

 

4 hours ago, SwampD said:

Either way, the Sabres would still be in Buffalo.

without the Canadian fans, sabres lose 30% of gate revenue. Without Canada Buffalo is Hartford. Without the insurance companies

[Pimlach]

58 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

First, the Bills and Bandits play fewer games and almost always on weekends. Bandits season tickets start at $250. Plus they are a dynasty-level franchise. On average there is one Bandits game every two weeks. When games are on weekends, people will drive further to attend.

Same with the Bills. They also average a game every two weeks, mostly on weekends. And they are very good. People will drive for hours to attend.

The Sabres average 2-3 home games/week. Many seats cost over $100. People are less likely to travel more than an hour to attend on a work night. Which is why losing fans in Fort Erie, Niagara Falls and St. Catherines hurts the Sabres more. 

The Bills and Bandits are also hurt by losing Canadian fans but less so since US fans can travel further on weekends.

The only reason we have the Sabres is this was a more populous, prominent area in 1970. We would never be considered for expansion now and the Sabres will never be replaced if they leave.

The Buffalo-Niagara Falls metro area population was ~1.35M in 1970 and it is ~1.17M today.  This does not include Southern Ontario which is Canada's most densely populated area and has had significant population growth since 1970.  

So the population of the potential fan base today, if allowed to count just a small portion of Southern Ontario, is about the same now as it was in 1970. 

The big reasons for Buffalo gaining a franchise was that the market was hot for hockey and the likelihood for success was thought to be high, and the ownership was considered strong.  When Buffalo was passed over for league expansion in 1967, the Knox brothers tried to purchase the Oakland Seals two years later with the intent on moving that team to Buffalo. 

The 1970 population was not the defining reason.  In fact, the Sabres had to compete with the NBA expansion Buffalo Braves in 1970, something they do not have to do today.  

 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

What you refuse to acknowledge with your unending excuse making for this inept non-talking owner is that this is a failed franchise because of the accumulated bad decisions he has made. 
 

Whether the area is rich or poor is irrelevant. He has destroyed the franchise with his long list of self destructive decisions, many of which are associated with his selection of staff.

Isn’t a generation of excuses enough for you?  I’m tired of this stubborn owner and his mismanagement. I wish he would sell. 

 

 

 

And he's the only reason the team will remain here, for bad or good. So let's hope he finds his hockey McDermott.

[Doohicksie]

36 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The 1970 population was not the defining reason.  In fact, the Sabres had to compete with the NBA expansion Buffalo Braves in 1970, something they do not have to do today.  

Yes they do:  The Bandits are arguably more competition to the Sabres in that they are a smaller commitment for season tickets and they're actually a dynastic franchise, both of which magnify their drawing power and provide an alternative to a franchise that just doesn't win.

[Mango]

On 3/16/2025 at 2:01 PM, Brawndo said:

Lindy being able to go around GMKA with concerns has the potential to benefit the team this offseason, especially if Terry is hearing another voice about the team 

One quick thing on the third bullet. 

Part of the problem with the franchise has been that everybody has had a direct line to Terry, which muddies the waters between who his passing and failing at their actual job responsibilities. The Bills operate the same way, but McBeane have a longstanding working relationship so they don't go to Terry as individuals they go as a unit (more times than not). 

The key to the Sabres turning this thing around getting a GM and HC in absolute lockstep about how to run this thing. That way Terry is never the constant tie breaker. 

That said, that flat management style means that Adams needs to GTFO of the building in its entirety, because there can't be anybody else that doesn't roll directly to Lindy and Co. in the building. 

Part of the issue right now is also trust and I think Lindy likely has that from Terry. He is our best shot at turning this thing around outside of just plain blind luck. 

[Mango]

On 3/17/2025 at 9:39 AM, LGR4GM said:

Seriously, someone use a reason that isn't based on Lindy Ruff nostalgia to justify him being good as a POHO or a GM. He's been marginally successful at his other NHL stops. Other than that, he's kinda mediocre at coaching. Why would he be good in a higher role? Because Adams is so bad so anything is better? 

Terry Pegula likely won't hire somebody more qualified and give that person nearly as much trust. 

More than half the problem with the Sabres is the owners fault, not the resume's of the people in the building (over the course of Terry's tenure). You cannot just talk about "best available" when it comes to Pegula Sabres hires. You have to pick the best person that Terry will actually hire and give control to. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, xzy89c1 said:

 

 

without the Canadian fans, sabres lose 30% of gate revenue. Without Canada Buffalo is Hartford. Without the insurance companies

Southern Ontario is part of our fan base, always was and is. So your comparison to Hartford doesn't resonate with me. What has eroded our fan base is a generation of failure under the stewardship of Terry Pegula. 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

And he's the only reason the team will remain here, for bad or good. So let's hope he finds his hockey McDermott.

Coming in late so I might be missing some things. I think this is more complicated than Pegula is the only reason we have a team today. 

Sure I think it is, but part of that is because the franchise is such an embarrassment. He didn't buy an embarrassing franchise. He bought the 4th highest total P% in the league with an attendance of over 99% and a top 5 NHL TV market. The Sabres were easily the winningest franchise in the NHL to not have a Stanley Cup. At the time of purchase I don't think the NHL wanted to leave Buffalo. 

Now the team is bottom 5 in attendance, losing for over a decade, costing the owners money, and they are the team that is the butt of most NHL jokes. And even though we don't show up to games anymore we still watch more Stanley Cup Playoffs/4 Nations than 90% of NHL cities across the country. So yeah, now I think think that Terry is the only thing anchoring the team in Buffalo. But that is mostly because Terry Pegula has made it that way. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Doohicksie said:

Yes they do:  The Bandits are arguably more competition to the Sabres in that they are a smaller commitment for season tickets and they're actually a dynastic franchise, both of which magnify their drawing power and provide an alternative to a franchise that just doesn't win.

This proved my point even more. 
 

Bandits play 9 home games, average ticket price is $50.  Plenty of $11-25 tickets.  

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, MISabresFan said:

An owner will always have power or something along those lines.  Terry can do it, he did it with the Bills when everyone thought he couldn't.  Now he needs to find the proper personnel combination to make the Sabre's cook

I still believe the difference is he thinks he knows hockey and he knows he doesn't know football. Hence he lets the football people run it their own way and doesn't meddle as long as they keep doing well he leaves them alone. The same is not true of hockey where he will not turn things over to experienced hockey people and step back and let them run it. He's too involved and thus influential. 

I also think maybe he's stuck on the idea that the Sabres just need their Josh Allen not understanding that hockey dynamics are different from football. 

[kas23]

Sorry for leaving this here:

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/44333063/us-billionaire-friedkin-emerges-potential-nhl-ownership-option-houston

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, kas23 said:

Sorry for leaving this here:

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/44333063/us-billionaire-friedkin-emerges-potential-nhl-ownership-option-houston

Guess we have to deal with Pegula a bit longer

In the end the team being here matter more than anything else

[SwampD]

10 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Guess we have to deal with Pegula a bit longer

In the end the team being here matter more than anything else

Why? We deserve better.

[LGR4GM]

46 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Why? We deserve better.

Because a lot of ppl have been conditioned to believe they don't deserve better, they just deserve what their billionaire overlords let trickle down.

[Flashsabre]

At the end of the day I don’t want Pegula to sell. I want someone to have a Come to Jesus meeting with him to find the right people to run this franchise and turn it around.

If someone wanted to buy the Sabres and keep them in Buffalo I’d be all for it but I don’t know if that is a real possibility. Between the damage done by years of losing, the smaller market size and the political strife caused by Trump between U.S. and Canada causing many Southern Ontario fans not to cross for games, I can’t see it as an attractive buy at the moment.

[LGR4GM]

29 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

At the end of the day I don’t want Pegula to sell. I want someone to have a Come to Jesus meeting with him to find the right people to run this franchise and turn it around.

If someone wanted to buy the Sabres and keep them in Buffalo I’d be all for it but I don’t know if that is a real possibility. Between the damage done by years of losing, the smaller market size and the political strife caused by Trump between U.S. and Canada causing many Southern Ontario fans not to cross for games, I can’t see it as an attractive buy at the moment.

Terry's 200 million dollar investment is now worth over a billion. It's a very attractive asset. 

[ska-T Palmtown]

20 hours ago, xzy89c1 said:

teams like Toronto, NY, Boston etc... can charge 5x what sabres do and they sell out the suites for a much higher multiple than that. Sabres do not sell out the suites today. Sabres are only team in NHL that offer the opposing teams a free suite to use. Only team. 

The report i referenced was only the tickets and suites not the purchases during the game. Prices for concessions are far higher in other buildings.

The losses are an all in number. Do not doubt at all they lost that much. 30 million a year when your expenses are similar to the high revenue teams, but your revenue is far below is a realistic number. Would only be worse since COVID and the attendance being so low.

 

without the Canadian fans, sabres lose 30% of gate revenue. Without Canada Buffalo is Hartford. Without the insurance companies

I don't believe the $30M number, because Forbes is a reputable source and they are including all sources of revenue, tickets, merch, concessions, and league revenue sharing. Terry is a successful billionaire business owner, surely he is not stupid enough to forget to include all revenue streams when deciding whether or not he as a net profit or loss.

Add to that, the asset has appreciated by close to $1B over 14 years. If he thinks he has "lost money" on the Sabres, he is either very dumb, needs to fire his accountant, or both.

This line of thinking is hilarious. 

[ExWNYer]

19 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I still believe the difference is he thinks he knows hockey and he knows he doesn't know football. Hence he lets the football people run it their own way and doesn't meddle as long as they keep doing well he leaves them alone. The same is not true of hockey where he will not turn things over to experienced hockey people and step back and let them run it. He's too involved and thus influential. 

I also think maybe he's stuck on the idea that the Sabres just need their Josh Allen not understanding that hockey dynamics are different from football. 

Then how narcissistic &/or obtuse must he be to still think that's the case after a record setting 14 year (and counting) NHL playoff drought?? He needs to take a long look in the mirror and realize that the problem staring back at him is in need of a tutor because he apparently hasn't learned sh*t in 14 years. That is one long learning curve to still be firmly entrenched in the abyss of the hockey world. He must also be a lousy businessman to be leaving untold millions on the table by not having a relevant and successful franchise.

[MISabresFan]

On 3/20/2025 at 10:06 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

Monday.

LOL

On 3/20/2025 at 10:21 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

A few years ago when his NJ squad had 112 points

Devils GM Fitzgerald says Lindy Ruff was fired because of team’s struggles

[Flashsabre]

12 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

LOL

Devils GM Fitzgerald says Lindy Ruff was fired because of team’s struggles

Ruff was fired because Fitzgerald didn’t address the goaltending and it killed them. Not defending Ruff but that is the reality of that season.

[GASabresIUFAN]

16 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

LOL

Devils GM Fitzgerald says Lindy Ruff was fired because of team’s struggles

Not Lindy’s coaching. He was the scapegoat for all their injuries on defense and poor goaltending.

[LGR4GM]

22 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Ruff was fired because Fitzgerald didn’t address the goaltending and it killed them. Not defending Ruff but that is the reality of that season.

 

20 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Not Lindy’s coaching. He was the scapegoat for all their injuries on defense and poor goaltending.

Well at least Buffalo has good goaltending and defense... wait

[GASabresIUFAN]

16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

Well at least Buffalo has good goaltending and defense... wait

Right.  Hard to coach successfully when you don’t have the players. 

[Flashsabre]

Don’t know how excited the NHL is for relocation when expansion cities are paying $1.5 billion to join.