Interesting Tidbit from John Wawrow

[Pimlach]

14 hours ago, xzy89c1 said:

told people he lost 300 million on sabres. This was before COVID so a lot more now. Buffalo does not have corporations to support NHL team where the Gate amounts are key. Buffalo gate is around 400k while big cities it is over 2 million. No TV deal to even things out like in NFL.

If he sells, odds are team moves. 

Big cites make over 5X more?   Even if you count an average of 7 home playoff games this sounds wrong.  

[ska-T Palmtown]

14 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

That's equivalent to Pegs losing roughly 30 million every year for a decade. Considering Buffalo didn't have issues selling out especially in 2015-2018, seems questionable with revenue sharing, ticket sales, and TV deals. Considering the guy built and maintains a 100 million dollar yacht... idk seems flimsy.

 

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Big cites make over 5X more?   Even if you count an average of 7 home playoff games this sounds wrong.  

https://www.statista.com/statistics/196791/revenue-of-the-buffalo-sabres-since-2006/#:~:text=The annual National Hockey League,in the 2023%2F24 season.

No idea how stadium upkeep, etc is figured into this number - but sure does not seem like he is losing an average of $30M per year.

More info from Forbes. Looks like the only person you need to "know" is Google:
https://www.forbes.com/teams/buffalo-sabres/

Operating income by year, 2024 being on the left:

From rough math, since 2015 he would be ~+5M. (in the article you can hover and get numbers for each year.

Edited Wednesday at 12:37 PM by ska-T Palmtown

[SwampD]

On 3/18/2025 at 5:39 PM, xzy89c1 said:

told people he lost 300 million on sabres. This was before COVID so a lot more now. Buffalo does not have corporations to support NHL team where the Gate amounts are key. Buffalo gate is around 400k while big cities it is over 2 million. No TV deal to even things out like in NFL.

If he sells, odds are team moves. 

I'll take those odds. We've been hearing that for 25+ years. They ain't movin.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

I'll take those odds. We've been hearing that for 25+ years. They ain't movin.

There are people lining up to own an NHL team in Buffalo. Take a number.

[sabremike]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

I'll take those odds. We've been hearing that for 25+ years. They ain't movin.

In the entire history of the NHL the oldest team ever relocated were the Minnesota North Stars (I know they were the Stars the last season. Whatever, Norm Greene can kiss my ass while he's rotting in hell, he's an even bigger scoundrel than Karmanos) in 1993 at 25 years old. The Sabres are more than twice as old.

[PromoTheRobot]

On 3/17/2025 at 12:49 PM, sabremike said:

Ask the Blackberry guy how easy that would be. 

Anyone buying the team would be doing so under the same terms Tom Dundon was allowed to buy the Canes under: You will be allowed to relocate on the 10th of Never.

In that case no one pays what the franchise is worth.

On 3/17/2025 at 12:55 PM, erickompositör72 said:

Lindy Ruff in a higher role would serve one purpose (and well, IMO):

People around the league respect Lindy. He has relationships around the league. That in itself could be one big missing piece of our puzzle.

What do you base this opinion on?

[PromoTheRobot]

On 3/17/2025 at 4:06 PM, triumph_communes said:

The point of a POHO is to insulate management from ownership. Which we don’t have today and is the biggest problem. They don’t have the be the best hockey mind, just a barrier 

 

6 minutes ago, sabremike said:

In the entire history of the NHL the oldest team ever relocated were the Minnesota North Stars (I know they were the Stars the last season. Whatever, Norm Greene can kiss my ass while he's rotting in hell, he's an even bigger scoundrel than Karmanos) in 1993 at 25 years old. The Sabres are more than twice as old.

Which guarantees nothing.

[PromoTheRobot]

On 3/18/2025 at 5:39 PM, xzy89c1 said:

told people he lost 300 million on sabres. This was before COVID so a lot more now. Buffalo does not have corporations to support NHL team where the Gate amounts are key. Buffalo gate is around 400k while big cities it is over 2 million. No TV deal to even things out like in NFL.

If he sells, odds are team moves. 

With cities like Atlanta and Houston itching for teams I'm sure Terry can make a killing, but then it's bye bye Sabres. Look at Utah. The Jazz owner wasn't about to wait for expansion. He pried the Coyotes out of Phoenix. Buffalo is an economic basket case that relies on Canada for a big chunk for ticket sales. The way things are heading, the Sabres might be a dead franchise walking, playoffs or not.

[sabremike]

42 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

With cities like Atlanta and Houston itching for teams I'm sure Terry can make a killing, but then it's bye bye Sabres. Look at Utah. The Jazz owner wasn't about to wait for expansion. He pried the Coyotes out of Phoenix. Buffalo is an economic basket case that relies on Canada for a big chunk for ticket sales. The way things are heading, the Sabres might be a dead franchise walking, playoffs or not.

The Coyotes were playing in a 4,000 seat college hockey rink after having been kicked out of their arena and literally had no goddamned place to play (This also happened to Atlanta). KBC is ***** but at least it's viable and they aren't evicting the team. Also allowing an existing team to move would be throwing a billion dollars into a huge pile and setting it on fire.

[SwampD]

7 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

With cities like Atlanta and Houston itching for teams I'm sure Terry can make a killing, but then it's bye bye Sabres. Look at Utah. The Jazz owner wasn't about to wait for expansion. He pried the Coyotes out of Phoenix. Buffalo is an economic basket case that relies on Canada for a big chunk for ticket sales. The way things are heading, the Sabres might be a dead franchise walking, playoffs or not.

Who cares where the money comes from? It’s every bit as real. Our whole country is an economic basket case right now. I would think that being decoupled from the US economy should be viewed as a positive thing. 

[_Q_]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Who cares where the money comes from? It’s every bit as real. Our whole country is an economic basket case right now. I would think that being decoupled from the US economy should be viewed as a positive thing. 

As the Premier said, if Canada decoupled from the US economy, they would cease to exist as a country.

[SwampD]

Just now, _Q_ said:

As the Premier said, if Canada decoupled from the US economy, they would cease to exist as a country.

Either way, the Sabres would still be in Buffalo.

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

With cities like Atlanta and Houston itching for teams I'm sure Terry can make a killing, but then it's bye bye Sabres. Look at Utah. The Jazz owner wasn't about to wait for expansion. He pried the Coyotes out of Phoenix. Buffalo is an economic basket case that relies on Canada for a big chunk for ticket sales. The way things are heading, the Sabres might be a dead franchise walking, playoffs or not.

You are distorting what actually happened with the Phoenix franchise. Phoenix literally didn't have a place to play in the area. Proposals to build a new arena fell through because the local jurisdictions and state were not willing to contribute for a new facility. So that's how the franchise ended up in another city. That's not the case with Buffalo. An arena exists. 

And your description of Buffalo as an "economic basket case" is an absurdity. If that is the case, then why do the Bills and Bandits sell out all the time? Do you think the non-talking owner would have contributed a large proportion of the stadium funds if he believed that this was a failed market? And your point about needing to rely on Canadians makes no sense because it's part of the Sabre hockey market, and always has been. If the Sabres were a serious franchise we would have evenmore fans coming from Toronto because seats would be available and ticket prices more reasonable than in Toronto. The Sabre hockey market not only includes southern Canada, but also parts of PA (Erie) and east of Buffalo that goes beyond Rochester. 

If you want to categorize the Sabre market as a failed market (that's not how I see it), then go to the obvious source of the problem i.e. the silent and obtuse owner who strangled it. He's the person most responsible for destroying the franchise and demoralized a fading fanbase. My recommendation for him is to sell, make a tidy profit and sail away on your new and bigger yacht. I'm tired of this fool owner. He ought to be ashamed of himself. 

 

[MISabresFan]

On 3/17/2025 at 2:55 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Well at least Lindy knows what a good NHL team is supposed to look like.  

He does?  when is last time he has seen that first hand?

[MISabresFan]

On 3/17/2025 at 6:11 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I'm certainly not opposed to a complete change, but power has to be given to a new person and can't stay with the owner. 

An owner will always have power or something along those lines.  Terry can do it, he did it with the Bills when everyone thought he couldn't.  Now he needs to find the proper personnel combination to make the Sabre's cook

[PromoTheRobot]

32 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

He does?  when is last time he has seen that first hand?

Monday.

[GASabresIUFAN]

47 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

He does?  when is last time he has seen that first hand?

A few years ago when his NJ squad had 112 points

[PromoTheRobot]

10 hours ago, sabremike said:

The Coyotes were playing in a 4,000 seat college hockey rink after having been kicked out of their arena and literally had no goddamned place to play (This also happened to Atlanta). KBC is ***** but at least it's viable and they aren't evicting the team. Also allowing an existing team to move would be throwing a billion dollars into a huge pile and setting it on fire.

Utah paid an extra fee to the league to move the Coyotes. A motivated buyer could pay $900MM for the Sabres and a billion on top to the league just to avoid the yet-to-be-determined wait for expansion.

47 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

An owner will always have power or something along those lines.  Terry can do it, he did it with the Bills when everyone thought he couldn't.  Now he needs to find the proper personnel combination to make the Sabre's cook

That is the best hope.

[Pimlach]

On 3/17/2025 at 1:55 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Well at least Lindy knows what a good NHL team is supposed to look like.  

True. 

1 hour ago, MISabresFan said:

He does?  when is last time he has seen that first hand?

Just two years ago.  

The New Jersey Devils' best season EVER was under Lindy Ruff in 2022-23 , they achieved a franchise-record 112 points with a 52-22-8 record.  

[SwampD]

42 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Utah paid an extra fee to the league to move the Coyotes. A motivated buyer could pay $900MM for the Sabres and a billion on top to the league just to avoid the yet-to-be-determined wait for expansion.

That is the best hope.

I agree that that is the best hope. But hope is not a strategy.

[inkman]

19 minutes ago, SwampD said:

But hope is not a strategy.

My former boss said this all the time. I get PTSD anytime anyone says it. I’d stab that dude in the face if I had the chance. Easily one of the worst human beings I’ve ever encountered.  

[SwampD]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

My former boss said this all the time. I get PTSD anytime anyone says it. I’d stab that dude in the face if I had the chance. Easily one of the worst human beings I’ve ever encountered.  

I’m sorry to have caused such pain.

[LGR4GM]

43 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

True. 

Just two years ago.  

The New Jersey Devils' best season EVER was under Lindy Ruff in 2022-23 , they achieved a franchise-record 112 points with a 52-22-8 record.  

and under Granato we were 1 point away from the playoffs. Great, Ruff had one good year with the Devils, fantastic. 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

You are distorting what actually happened with the Phoenix franchise. Phoenix literally didn't have a place to play in the area. Proposals to build a new arena fell through because the local jurisdictions and state were not willing to contribute for a new facility. So that's how the franchise ended up in another city. That's not the case with Buffalo. An arena exists. 

And your description of Buffalo as an "economic basket case" is an absurdity. If that is the case, then why do the Bills and Bandits sell out all the time? Do you think the non-talking owner would have contributed a large proportion of the stadium funds if he believed that this was a failed market? And your point about needing to rely on Canadians makes no sense because it's part of the Sabre hockey market, and always has been. If the Sabres were a serious franchise we would have evenmore fans coming from Toronto because seats would be available and ticket prices more reasonable than in Toronto. The Sabre hockey market not only includes southern Canada, but also parts of PA (Erie) and east of Buffalo that goes beyond Rochester. 

If you want to categorize the Sabre market as a failed market (that's not how I see it), then go to the obvious source of the problem i.e. the silent and obtuse owner who strangled it. He's the person most responsible for destroying the franchise and demoralized a fading fanbase. My recommendation for him is to sell, make a tidy profit and sail away on your new and bigger yacht. I'm tired of this fool owner. He ought to be ashamed of himself. 

 

 

First, the Bills and Bandits play fewer games and almost always on weekends. Bandits season tickets start at $250. Plus they are a dynasty-level franchise. On average there is one Bandits game every two weeks. When games are on weekends, people will drive further to attend.

Same with the Bills. They also average a game every two weeks, mostly on weekends. And they are very good. People will drive for hours to attend.

The Sabres average 2-3 home games/week. Many seats cost over $100. People are less likely to travel more than an hour to attend on a work night. Which is why losing fans in Fort Erie, Niagara Falls and St. Catherines hurts the Sabres more. 

The Bills and Bandits are also hurt by losing Canadian fans but less so since US fans can travel further on weekends.

The only reason we have the Sabres is this was a more populous, prominent area in 1970. We would never be considered for expansion now and the Sabres will never be replaced if they leave.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

First, the Bills and Bandits play fewer games and almost always on weekends. Bandits season tickets start at $250. Plus they are a dynasty-level franchise. On average there is one Bandits game every two weeks. When games are on weekends, people will drive further to attend.

Same with the Bills. They also average a game every two weeks, mostly on weekends. And they are very good. People will drive for hours to attend.

The Sabres average 2-3 home games/week. Many seats cost over $100. People are less likely to travel more than an hour to attend on a work night. Which is why losing fans in Fort Erie, Niagara Falls and St. Catherines hurts the Sabres more. 

The Bills and Bandits are also hurt by losing Canadian fans but less so since US fans can travel further on weekends.

The only reason we have the Sabres is this was a more populous, prominent area in 1970. We would never be considered for expansion now and the Sabres will never be replaced if they leave.

What you refuse to acknowledge with your unending excuse making for this inept non-talking owner is that this is a failed franchise because of the accumulated bad decisions he has made. 
 

Whether the area is rich or poor is irrelevant. He has destroyed the franchise with his long list of self destructive decisions, many of which are associated with his selection of staff.

Isn’t a generation of excuses enough for you?  I’m tired of this stubborn owner and his mismanagement. I wish he would sell.