GDT: Vegas Golden Eichels @ Buffalo Sabres 3/15/25 12:30 pm MSG

[PromoTheRobot]

11 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

He’s top 3 in games played and has not been an average goalie this year. This makes sense. 

Keep on ignoring the reason why UPL gives to so many goals. I've tried to explain. No one wants to know.

[SwampD]

18 hours ago, rickshaw said:

Why can’t they always play like this? Dominated a very good team. 

Hate to say it because it’s getting old (ha ha) but I really think it’s youth.

18 hours ago, HumanSlinky39 said:

Pissed away 1:30 of OT with two of our worst offensive forwards and Power. WTF, man?

Maybe coaching for next year? Why not try stuff when it doesn’t matter anymore?

 

That was a fun game. My impressions as they pop in my head.

- Other than one major brain fart turnover, Byram played a great game.

- Benson is a beast. He takes a beating in front of the next and just pisses people off. He needs to learn how to draw more penalties. Youth.

- I sure hope Quinn figures it out, because it’s obvious that there is something extra there. Again, youth.

- I really wish that Clifton had any kind of hands. I love his game. A little more vision might be nice, too.

- Youth. I’m sick of it. I know LGR will be all over me about this, but I would trade our pick (no matter how low it is) for an actual NHL player who could make all our players better just by his presence. I just don’t care about someone who might  have an impact in a couple of years.

[SwampD]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Keep on ignoring the reason why UPL gives to so many goals. I've tried to explain. No one wants to know.

Is it because he gives up too many rebounds and is leaky sometimes? 😂

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I wish I could enjoy this more, like if we were in a playoff race. 

Also the Eichel booing and disdain. While I do think Jack may be fairly unlikable with his attitude/mannerisms, I also am coming around to almost being on his side of things. 

The way this organization handled everything and continues to handle it, I really can't blame him for jetting. 

Eichel extended and he gave Buffalo a good shot and good effort, but the organizational operating plan (EEE) was getting much worse, not better.  Can’t blame him for leaving and the injury issue only made him look more right than wrong. 

Eichel was mishandled from the start, he needed to be put in place from the very beginning, but no one was there to do it.  When did you see or hear of Eichel looking to veterans for help and guidance?  Murray is to blame for the bad chemistry and the bad culture that Eichel, Reinhart, Bogo, Kane, ROR, and Lehner all helped to create on those teams.  They were known for excessive partying and cliques, those teams were never close knit.  

So many stories in Buffalo about the bad behavior of Murray’s bunch, which bled into Boterill’s group too.  The current core group under Adams could not be more different personality-wise.  

Eichel is not the same kid anymore.  He has matured in many ways, but he will get booed in Buffalo for a long time.  I watch him and marvel at the skill and I think of what should have been if only the organization was run better from the top down.  Eichel was not the problem.  The problems start at the top. 

[kas23]

9 hours ago, spndnchz said:

What?

Hertl being cute and not scoring the empty net. 

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Eichel extended and he gave Buffalo a good shot and good effort, but the organizational operating plan (EEE) was getting much worse, not better.  Can’t blame him for leaving and the injury issue only made him look more right than wrong. 

Eichel was mishandled from the start, he needed to be put in place from the very beginning, but no one was there to do it.  When did you see or hear of Eichel looking to veterans for help and guidance?  Murray is to blame for the bad chemistry and the bad culture that Eichel, Reinhart, Bogo, Kane, ROR, and Lehner all helped to create on those teams.  They were known for excessive partying and cliques, those teams were never close knit.  

So many stories in Buffalo about the bad behavior of Murray’s bunch, which bled into Boterill’s group too.  The current core group under Adams could not be more different personality-wise.  

Eichel is not the same kid anymore.  He has matured in many ways, but he will get booed in Buffalo for a long time.  I watch him and marvel at the skill and I think of what should have been if only the organization was run better from the top down.  Eichel was not the problem.  The problems start at the top. 

I'm just addressing the injury issue which after the fact proved that the player was right. There was a lot in stake for Eichel regarding his neck injury. He certainly did his research as to what was the best surgical approach for his injury. Although the procedure was considered experimental in the US, it was an accepted practice procedure in Europe. Europe is more accepting of new procedures because their medical system/s are more receptive in approving trial treatments. The American system is much more conservative in accepting new procedures. Whether that is a good thing or not is a different issue and a complicated issue. 

After the surgery, Eichel was able to get back on the ice sooner than if he would have followed the Sabre recommended procedure. And after Jack's successful outcome, other players had the same procedure. 

I can't prove it but I believe that this medical issue was used against Jack because they resented his desire to be traded. On this issue, I'm with Jack. 

And it should be pointed out to those who booed Jack that he wasn't the only player who wanted out of this amateurishly run franchise, so did Reinhart, Ullmark, ROR, Montour etc. I'm a harsh critic of our owner, GM and how the franchise has been run. But I will also acknowledge that notwithstanding the mistakes and questionable hockey judgments, the franchise is much more professionally run than before. There is less tumult and more order. 

[PromoTheRobot]

40 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Is it because he gives up too many rebounds and is leaky sometimes? 😂

He's not perfect but most of the goals he gives up come off of opposing players getting behind our defense or awful turnovers that result in high danger scoring chances.

VGK goal #1 Howden gets behind our D for an easy tip in:

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-howden-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370083942112

VGK goal #2  Turnover at the Blue line, UPL makes the initial save but the Sabres D is falling over each other, unable to clear. 

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-dorofeyev-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370083220112

VGK goal #3 Eichel gets behind everyone, UPL makes a save, we fail to clear. 

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-eichel-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370087034112

Mistakes happen, pucks take crazy bounces, but if the Sabres eliminate these by a half, we are winning more games and UPL is a better goalie.

Everybody asks "what's wrong with the Sabres???" This is what's wrong with them. 

 

 

 

[HOUSE]

This should send the message to all NHL teams

Don't mess with the Sabres, this could be the best team in the league next season...

Edited 17 hours ago by HOUSE

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I agree with your take on Cozens. It was obvious in his play that he was feeling the pressure with the constant talk about him being a subject in trade talks. I wouldn't be surprised if his play with his new team will be much better. He now has a fresh start and good chance to play in playoff games. Good for him. I wish him the best. 

I think Cozens is destined to be a good, useful piece that good teams need. He just can’t be one of your top three(3) go to guys.

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Keep on ignoring the reason why UPL gives to so many goals. I've tried to explain. No one wants to know.

I know you and I go back and forth on this...and yes, I do agree the shots and quality of shots he has faced are been difficult.  But I also think he has not played well. Again, I have stopped personally posting in GTD's about this, but there are WAY too many times a shooter is 20 feet out, UPL is set, facing the shooter, and he simply gets beat.  Yes, these guys are NHL players and they can pick corners, so you aren't going to stop all those shots. But he is letting them in at a much higher rate than last year.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

I think them signing Greenway and Zucker to extensions played a big part in Dahlin’s sentiment. Cozens was more beaten down than not wanting to be here. 
 

Is it just a coincidence that Samuelsson and Cozen have had such bad seasons right after being given the A?

I wish Cozens well, moving him was best for all parties.  Unfortunately, it could prove to be another indictment on how the Sabres have mishandled their youth.  

[PromoTheRobot]

25 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I know you and I go back and forth on this...and yes, I do agree the shots and quality of shots he has faced are been difficult.  But I also think he has not played well. Again, I have stopped personally posting in GTD's about this, but there are WAY too many times a shooter is 20 feet out, UPL is set, facing the shooter, and he simply gets beat.  Yes, these guys are NHL players and they can pick corners, so you aren't going to stop all those shots. But he is letting them in at a much higher rate than last year.

Here's something you don't realize. If you allow an NHL shooter a clean shot from 20 feet out he has a 50/50 chance of scoring. That's because given time that shooter can hit a key hole at 95 mph and a goalie only takes up about 60-80% of the net. Human reaction time isn't quick enough.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-of-a-goal-does-an-ice-hockey-player-see-considering-its-6-4-with-a-goalie-in-front

So it's the job of the 5 guys on the ice to NOT allow a shooter that much space and time to tee off.  Once again, you fail to understand how you defend your end. It's a 6-man job. If your guys aren't doing their job, goalies get lit up. 

Edited 21 hours ago by PromoTheRobot

[SwampD]

51 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

He's not perfect but most of the goals he gives up come off of opposing players getting behind our defense or awful turnovers that result in high danger scoring chances.

VGK goal #1 Howden gets behind our D for an easy tip in:

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-howden-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370083942112

VGK goal #2  Turnover at the Blue line, UPL makes the initial save but the Sabres D is falling over each other, unable to clear. 

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-dorofeyev-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370083220112

VGK goal #3 Eichel gets behind everyone, UPL makes a save, we fail to clear. 

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-eichel-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370087034112

Mistakes happen, pucks take crazy bounces, but if the Sabres eliminate these by a half, we are winning more games and UPL is a better goalie.

Everybody asks "what's wrong with the Sabres???" This is what's wrong with them. 

 

 

 

I really was just making a joke. I know that the way this team ”plays defense” is baffling at times. Sorry if I got you all fired up.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, SwampD said:

I really was just making a joke. I know that the way this team ”plays defense” is baffling at times. Sorry if I got you all fired up.

That's okay. That was more for @mjd1001 benefit. You can't separate what your team does in the defensive end from your goaltenders performance.

[inkman]

Interesting stuff from Lindy postgame.  Went immediately to wrong play, wrong time when discussing Dahlin’s play (Rasmus admitted his ***** ups lead directly to goals).  We’ve debated about Rasmus with some questioning his hockey IQ or even just IQ and there seems to be smoke. He knows he making dumb plays and has to improve it. Is Lindy the first coach to point it out to him? 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

That's okay. That was more for @mjd1001 benefit. You can't separate what your team does in the defensive end from your goaltenders performance.

Ok, you are simply ignoring that he is letting in goals this year that he was making stops on last year. You can use stats, or you can use the eye test.  

And you keep coming back at me with its a team game, its about the entire play of everyone on their own zone. I never said it wasn't. I AGREE with that. My only point is he is not playing as well as he did last year.  He is allowing more soft goals than last year. To me from what I actually see, that is 100% true.

Edited 20 hours ago by mjd1001

[K-9]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm just addressing the injury issue which after the fact proved that the player was right. There was a lot in stake for Eichel regarding his neck injury. He certainly did his research as to what was the best surgical approach for his injury. Although the procedure was considered experimental in the US, it was an accepted practice procedure in Europe. Europe is more accepting of new procedures because their medical system/s are more receptive in approving trial treatments. The American system is much more conservative in accepting new procedures. Whether that is a good thing or not is a different issue and a complicated issue. 

After the surgery, Eichel was able to get back on the ice sooner than if he would have followed the Sabre recommended procedure. And after Jack's successful outcome, other players had the same procedure. 

I can't prove it but I believe that this medical issue was used against Jack because they resented his desire to be traded. On this issue, I'm with Jack. 

And it should be pointed out to those who booed Jack that he wasn't the only player who wanted out of this amateurishly run franchise, so did Reinhart, Ullmark, ROR, Montour etc. I'm a harsh critic of our owner, GM and how the franchise has been run. But I will also acknowledge that notwithstanding the mistakes and questionable hockey judgments, the franchise is much more professionally run than before. There is less tumult and more order. 

The procedure was not considered experimental at the time Eichel sought to have it. While first developed in Europe in the 90s, it has been a routine procedure here for years. The only question was ADR procedures for athletes engaged in high impact sports. There simply was no track record a few years ago. 

Dr. Andrew Cappuccino whose treatment of Kevin Everett (the Bills player paralyzed from the neck down after covering a kickoff) allowed him to miraculously walk again, was among the first spinal surgeons in the US certified in the ADR procedure and he teaches the technique around the world. He was the Sabres’ consultant on the Eichel matter and it was Dr. Cappuccino who advised against the ADR procedure given the lack of historical data relative to athletes in contact sports. 

I have no desire to re-litigate the issue, except to say that when Eichel stated on a podcast hosted by an UFC fighter whose name I don’t recall offhand, that the Sabres initially said he could have the ADR and then changed their mind, he was full of crap. The Sabres, again on the advice of Dr. Cappuccino, never approved the ADR.

It’s great that Eichel is doing well after his surgery, but doctors don’t have the luxury of hindsight when making their best medical decisions at the time they make them. Positive outcomes are never guaranteed and it’s always better to err on the side of caution until a track record has been established. 

[shrader]

I do also wonder what happens to Eichel long term beyond hockey. The fans don’t really care about it, but that’s another big part of finding the right procedure. 

[quill]

3 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

UPL has had a terrible season. It’s not a shock that he is in that spot. He’s the starting goalie on one of the league’s worst teams. #2 and 3 on the list? Noted team killers Jeremy Swayman and Juuse Saros. 

UPL has to be better. But, Lindy Ruff’s system/structure is murder on goalies. Ignoring the root cause of an issue is never a good thing. 
 

 

Exactly. Not only does UPL have to be better, but if this team continues to be crappy our goalie will have to be great for us to have any chance of making it into the playoffs next year. Can UPL develop into a great goalie?

[LTS]

20 hours ago, SabresBillsFan said:

That would have been funny to give Hertl a star, he definitely cost the Golden Knights the extra point. Also bad play by Petro clearing it up the middle right to Zucker. 

Gotta give McLeod credit for getting his stick on Petro's and causing the puck to not go as high, etc. 

16 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Maybe they didn’t like Cozens looking back on it. Cozens goes in front of the media and talks about being soft. He’s also the guy that lost his balls just because he lost a fight. However he did get an “A” which confuses me.

Perhaps they thought it would help him accept responsibility and be more engaged. All the wrong reasons sure, but it's a possibility.

4 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I wish I could enjoy this more, like if we were in a playoff race. 

Also the Eichel booing and disdain. While I do think Jack may be fairly unlikable with his attitude/mannerisms, I also am coming around to almost being on his side of things. 

The way this organization handled everything and continues to handle it, I really can't blame him for jetting. 

Don't ever do this. Jack is not absolved of any responsibility in his situation. He became a very different person after a year or two with the team.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

He's not perfect but most of the goals he gives up come off of opposing players getting behind our defense or awful turnovers that result in high danger scoring chances.

VGK goal #1 Howden gets behind our D for an easy tip in:

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-howden-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370083942112

VGK goal #2  Turnover at the Blue line, UPL makes the initial save but the Sabres D is falling over each other, unable to clear. 

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-dorofeyev-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370083220112

VGK goal #3 Eichel gets behind everyone, UPL makes a save, we fail to clear. 

https://nhl.com/video/vgk-buf-eichel-scores-goal-against-ukko-pekka-luukkonen-6370087034112

Mistakes happen, pucks take crazy bounces, but if the Sabres eliminate these by a half, we are winning more games and UPL is a better goalie.

Everybody asks "what's wrong with the Sabres???" This is what's wrong with them. 

Got it, we can only win if we play way better because UPL isn't good enough to make tough saves.

[LGR4GM]

27 minutes ago, quill said:

Exactly. Not only does UPL have to be better, but if this team continues to be crappy our goalie will have to be great for us to have any chance of making it into the playoffs next year. Can UPL develop into a great goalie?

No. 

[quill]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

Players such as McCleud, Zucker and Greenway are not core/primary players like Dahlin and Tage are. However, they are tough players that round out the roster to give it strength and balance. These are the character players that make a team tough to play. Getting a core player in a trade or through free agency is tough to do. But if that is not achievable then adding more better secondary players is more attainable. One of my main criticisms of KA is that he has failed to properly construct a roster and get the right mix of players. What the Vegas game demonstrated is that even without our scorers, such as JJP, Kulich (injured in game) and Norris, the upgraded second-tier players kept us in the game against a superior opponent. 

I said this before (and so have others) that the mistake our GM made last offseason wasn't that he didn't do things to improve the roster, it was that he didn't do enough. If other teams improve at a faster rate than you are, then you are falling behind. And that is exemplified by the fact that teams that were in our tier last season, are now ahead of us this season. This was a GM miscalculation. 

Amen to all of that. When a team has the youngest players in the NHL it can give us hope that we'll develop into a soon to be strong team, but when a team's average age stays at something like 25 years of age for 3 years in a row, never getting any older, it should be obvious that KA had failed along the way to supply the missing ingredient of at least a few solid veteran players soon enough to complement the mix of young talent we've had. His recent moves with keeping Zucker and Greenway, though, were smart at least.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

The procedure was not considered experimental at the time Eichel sought to have it. While first developed in Europe in the 90s, it has been a routine procedure here for years. The only question was ADR procedures for athletes engaged in high impact sports. There simply was no track record a few years ago. 

Dr. Andrew Cappuccino whose treatment of Kevin Everett (the Bills player paralyzed from the neck down after covering a kickoff) allowed him to miraculously walk again, was among the first spinal surgeons in the US certified in the ADR procedure and he teaches the technique around the world. He was the Sabres’ consultant on the Eichel matter and it was Dr. Cappuccino who advised against the ADR procedure given the lack of historical data relative to athletes in contact sports. 

I have no desire to re-litigate the issue, except to say that when Eichel stated on a podcast hosted by an UFC fighter whose name I don’t recall offhand, that the Sabres initially said he could have the ADR and then changed their mind, he was full of crap. The Sabres, again on the advice of Dr. Cappuccino, never approved the ADR.

It’s great that Eichel is doing well after his surgery, but doctors don’t have the luxury of hindsight when making their best medical decisions at the time they make them. Positive outcomes are never guaranteed and it’s always better to err on the side of caution until a track record has been established. 

I agree with you that there are no guarantees with any surgery. However, Jack and his advisors certainly did extensive research as to the best medical course for his injury. Buffalo and their medical staff declined permission for him to have that procedure. He ended up being traded to a team that allowed that procedure. It worked out well for him. After he had the procedure that proved successful, other players had the same surgery for similar injuries. 

I do have the luxury of hindsight in assessing what happened post-surgery. That's why I'm concluding that Jack was right and the organization was wrong on the surgery issue. There's nothing unusual about premier medical people having respectful conflicting views on a health issue. But let's not forget that the Vegas medical staff allowed him to have the procedure that the Buffalo staff would not approve. Looking back, Jack and the Vegas medical staff made the right judgment. I'm aware that the league has a clause in the player agreement that requires a player to get permission for medical treatment. In my opinion, that rule should change where the player has the ultimate responsibility for his own health. 

[K-9]

21 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you that there are no guarantees with any surgery. However, Jack and his advisors certainly did extensive research as to the best medical course for his injury. Buffalo and their medical staff declined permission for him to have that procedure. He ended up being traded to a team that allowed that procedure. It worked out well for him. After he had the procedure that proved successful, other players had the same surgery for similar injuries. 

I do have the luxury of hindsight in assessing what happened post-surgery. That's why I'm concluding that Jack was right and the organization was wrong on the surgery issue. There's nothing unusual about premier medical people having respectful conflicting views on a health issue. But let's not forget that the Vegas medical staff allowed him to have the procedure that the Buffalo staff would not approve. Looking back, Jack and the Vegas medical staff made the right judgment. I'm aware that the league has a clause in the player agreement that requires a player to get permission for medical treatment. In my opinion, that rule should change where the player has the ultimate responsibility for his own health. 

So you’re telling me that one of the first spinal surgeons to be certified on the ADR procedure in the USA, who teaches the ADR procedure around the world, and who has performed more of them than anyone else in the country, was wrong to advise against it? Eichel’s “extensive research” was irrelevant to the opinion of the person employed by the Sabres to render critical medical advice. That didn’t make them wrong at the time. Under the CBA the Sabres had every right to deny permission for the ADR given the advice given by a preeminent practitioner in the field.