GDT: Vegas Golden Eichels @ Buffalo Sabres 3/15/25 12:30 pm MSG

[North Buffalo]

33 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you that there are no guarantees with any surgery. However, Jack and his advisors certainly did extensive research as to the best medical course for his injury. Buffalo and their medical staff declined permission for him to have that procedure. He ended up being traded to a team that allowed that procedure. It worked out well for him. After he had the procedure that proved successful, other players had the same surgery for similar injuries. 

I do have the luxury of hindsight in assessing what happened post-surgery. That's why I'm concluding that Jack was right and the organization was wrong on the surgery issue. There's nothing unusual about premier medical people having respectful conflicting views on a health issue. But let's not forget that the Vegas medical staff allowed him to have the procedure that the Buffalo staff would not approve. Looking back, Jack and the Vegas medical staff made the right judgment. I'm aware that the league has a clause in the player agreement that requires a player to get permission for medical treatment. In my opinion, that rule should change where the player has the ultimate responsibility for his own health. 

Have a friend whose daughter is a gymnast and similar surgery for scoliosis... she was back tumbling 21/2 months later... tethering is less invasive and traumatic... that being said my son had much worse scoliosis and other neuro issues with consultations decided he wasnt a candidate and had 2 titanium rods place in his back in November... He is doing much better but does not have the flexibility that teethering would have allowed.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

So you’re telling me that one of the first spinal surgeons to be certified on the ADR procedure in the USA, who teaches the ADR procedure around the world, and who has performed more of them than anyone else in the country, was wrong to advise against it? Eichel’s “extensive research” was irrelevant to the opinion of the person employed by the Sabres to render critical medical advice. That didn’t make them wrong at the time. Under the CBA the Sabres had every right to deny permission for the ADR given the advice given by a preeminent practitioner in the field. 

You can be an acknowledged brilliant surgeon and have an opinion on a case that other prominent surgeons disagree with. That's not unusual in the medical field. What I can say in hindsight is that Vegas and Jack were right regarding the best approach for him. People have different treatments for cancer with different medical advocacies. In my view, the patient has the right to choose. 

[North Buffalo]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

So you’re telling me that one of the first spinal surgeons to be certified on the ADR procedure in the USA, who teaches the ADR procedure around the world, and who has performed more of them than anyone else in the country, was wrong to advise against it? Eichel’s “extensive research” was irrelevant to the opinion of the person employed by the Sabres to render critical medical advice. That didn’t make them wrong at the time. Under the CBA the Sabres had every right to deny permission for the ADR given the advice given by a preeminent practitioner in the field. 

Back the the FDA had not yet fully approved it... not enough examples... but now it has been shown to be extremely successful for those candidates that are appropriate for.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Have a friend whose daughter is a gymnast and similar surgery for scoliosis... she was back tumbling 21/2 months later... tethering is less invasive and traumatic... that being said my son had much worse scoliosis and other neuro issues with consultations decided he wasnt a candidate and had 2 titanium rods place in his back in November... He is doing much better but does not have the flexibility that teethering would have allowed.

I have had two back surgeries. There are no guarantees about outcome. It worked out for me. In the medical profession there are a lot of judgments made on the best approach. That's why it's prudent to seek out other opinions before deciding on the approach. 

[K-9]

Just now, JohnC said:

You can be an acknowledged brilliant surgeon and have an opinion on a case that other prominent surgeons disagree with. That's not unusual in the medical field. What I can say in hindsight is that Vegas and Jack were right regarding the best approach for him. People have different treatments for cancer with different medical advocacies. In my view, the patient has the right to choose. 

I don’t disagree with the idea that patients always have a right to choose. Perhaps that issue will be re-examined in the next CBA. And of course medical opinions vary among experts, but for what it’s worth I doubt any of the doctors Eichel sought other opinions from have performed anywhere close to the number of ADR procedures as Dr. Cappuccino or have taught the technique to as many other practitioners around the world, either. Like patients, medicals practitioners have a right to choose, too, and given the lack of data on how contact sport athletes would hold up after the ADR procedure and the enormous potential liability issues, Dr. Cappuccino was absolutely correct in his opinion at the time. 

[K-9]

11 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Back the the FDA had not yet fully approved it... not enough examples... but now it has been shown to be extremely successful for those candidates that are appropriate for.

The FDA approval issue was certainly of relevance for the Sabres, especially as it related to insurance and liability, but ADR was being practiced with regularity, regardless. Just not on athletes engaged in high velocity contact sports as both you and I have pointed out. 

[quill]

5 hours ago, SwampD said:

Hate to say it because it’s getting old (ha ha) but I really think it’s youth.

Maybe coaching for next year? Why not try stuff when it doesn’t matter anymore?

 

That was a fun game. My impressions as they pop in my head.

- Other than one major brain fart turnover, Byram played a great game.

- Benson is a beast. He takes a beating in front of the next and just pisses people off. He needs to learn how to draw more penalties. Youth.

- I sure hope Quinn figures it out, because it’s obvious that there is something extra there. Again, youth.

- I really wish that Clifton had any kind of hands. I love his game. A little more vision might be nice, too.

- Youth. I’m sick of it. I know LGR will be all over me about this, but I would trade our pick (no matter how low it is) for an actual NHL player who could make all our players better just by his presence. I just don’t care about someone who might  have an impact in a couple of years.

Yup, Byram was great.

Benson is fun to watch. I think once he gets more experience the goals and assists will start piling up. I love he way he gets under the opposition's skin and doesn't ever back down. I might be going out on a limb but maybe someday he'll develop into another Theo Fleury type player.

With Quinn he sure has some good moves and the talent to put the puck in the net, but I wonder if his serious injuries that kept him out of so many games have taken too much of a toll on him to be able to play effectively in a full 60 minute game yet.

Clifton. He's not the most talented in the world, but he does have some talent to go along with his assets, and he's been looking pretty good as of late when he's forced to carry the puck up the ice. He's as physical as we've got and has a huge heart. He's been my favorite Sabre all season long.

I totally agree about trading our pick for an already established player, maybe someone in the mold of Zucker. Let's face it. Buffalo, with the state the team is in now, is about the last place that any first round pick touted to become a future star player would want to come to play when they know they could eventually make a small fortune in endorsements playing for a big market team. We can't remain this young forever always waiting for an entire team of youth to develop.

[SABRES 0311]

It was a good team effort. Hertl was our best player late in the third 😂 

 

Only complaint is the refs but that’s every fan in every sport.

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

 

Frankly, no matter how bad ownership and management are I have zero sympathy for a guy requesting a trade 2 years into an 8 year deal in which he signed.  If he suspected trouble he shouldn't of signed for 8 years.

This too 

In fairness, and I mean there’s even a take here fair to both org and player: literally no one could have foreseen Covid. That sort of act of god event is honestly (for reasons I understand) sort of underplayed in how it may have diverged the course of the franchise, among many other things obv. Not only was the 2021 season an anomaly disaster in large part because of it, but when Eichel signed his deal there’s no way he could have known the GM who signed him was going to be fired in the name of grand cost-cutting measures. Which, was a big functional component of the long form rebuild they undertook that prompted his request. The most favourable take for the organization would be that Covid uncertainty played a large part in the initial spending cuts 

Edited March 16 by Thorner

[North Buffalo]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

I have had two back surgeries. There are no guarantees about outcome. It worked out for me. In the medical profession there are a lot of judgments made on the best approach. That's why it's prudent to seek out other opinions before deciding on the approach. 

And ask a lot of questions from multiple sources.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

I don’t disagree with the idea that patients always have a right to choose. Perhaps that issue will be re-examined in the next CBA. And of course medical opinions vary among experts, but for what it’s worth I doubt any of the doctors Eichel sought other opinions from have performed anywhere close to the number of ADR procedures as Dr. Cappuccino or have taught the technique to as many other practitioners around the world, either. Like patients, medicals practitioners have a right to choose, too, and given the lack of data on how contact sport athletes would hold up after the ADR procedure and the enormous potential liability issues, Dr. Cappuccino was absolutely correct in his opinion at the time. 

I'm not challenging Dr. C's credentials as being one of the best and esteemed doctors in his area of expertise. And I'm not disputing the issue of the quantity of surgeries in the area we are discussing here he has performed. He gave his professional opinion, and it certainly was well reasoned. But that doesn't mean that other opinions are less reasoned than the opinion that the Sabre doctor gave. As it turned out, the procedure that Dr. C would not sign on to was signed on to by another team's medical staff. And to reinforce the notion that it was the right, if not better approach for Jack, is that he came back sooner than if he had the Dr. C surgery, and his career has been going strong with no ill-effects from the procedure that he insisted on. The hindsight judgment has indicated that, at least to me it does.

I also recognize that this was not an easy call/judgment for doctors. But in the medical profession, as in the legal profession, as in the scientific profession, as in the business profession, as in the military profession etc. tough judgments are made by highly trained and respected people without unanimity. 

[Doohickie]

I had a busy weekend and just watched the game.  I will say it was probably the best game Krebs had this year.  No goals, no assists, 0 on the +/-, but he jumped in when Kulich took the hit and made several other outstanding plays, especially coming back on defense.

The Sabres solidly outshot Vegas and should have won in regulation.  They should have won in OT as well.  So many shots off the post.  It was a pretty good win.

[PromoTheRobot]

20 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Ok, you are simply ignoring that he is letting in goals this year that he was making stops on last year. You can use stats, or you can use the eye test.  

And you keep coming back at me with its a team game, its about the entire play of everyone on their own zone. I never said it wasn't. I AGREE with that. My only point is he is not playing as well as he did last year.  He is allowing more soft goals than last year. To me from what I actually see, that is 100% true.

I simply don't agree UPL, himself, is letting that many bad goals in. What I'm seeing is a decline in defensive play which leads to more bad goals. Now you do see a couple bad ones, usually 5th, 6th and 7th goals in a game, which come after a night Uppie gets hung out to dry. That's just human nature. If your teammates don't care, why should you? Frankly it's a disservice that Lindy leaves him in on those nights. It's not helping his psyche.

[PromoTheRobot]

19 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Got it, we can only win if we play way better because UPL isn't good enough to make tough saves.

Once again you're doing this "all or nothing" thing. But yes, if we all play better UPL will be better. It's common sense.

Edited March 17 by PromoTheRobot

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Once again you're doing this "all or nothing" thing. But yes, if we all play better UPL will be better. It's common sense.

UPL is something like 28th or 29th in goals saved above expected. He's one of the very bottom starters and considering that this team is good at 5v5 scoring and their possession, shot metrics, and overall xgf hovers around the middle of the league, it seems pretty obvious that UPL is bad. Will he be good next year? Idk, sure if the defense is better his numbers will improve but I don't think he's a good goalie. He's an average to a below average starter who is inconsistent and will have decent stretches. 

Once again you are trying to attack me and make it about me. I have nothing to do with it. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

UPL is something like 28th or 29th in goals saved above expected. He's one of the very bottom starters and considering that this team is good at 5v5 scoring and their possession, shot metrics, and overall xgf hovers around the middle of the league, it seems pretty obvious that UPL is bad. Will he be good next year? Idk, sure if the defense is better his numbers will improve but I don't think he's a good goalie. He's an average to a below average starter who is inconsistent and will have decent stretches. 

Once again you are trying to attack me and make it about me. I have nothing to do with it. 

I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking your unwillingness to assign blame to anyone but UPL.

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking your unwillingness to assign blame to anyone but UPL.

He's not good. I am then attacking you for your unwillingness to accept that fixing the defense will only make him marginally better. 

[spndnchz]

Oooo chick fight 

come on you guys got more 👯‍♀️

[mjd1001]

54 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I simply don't agree UPL, himself, is letting that many bad goals in. What I'm seeing is a decline in defensive play which leads to more bad goals. Now you do see a couple bad ones, usually 5th, 6th and 7th goals in a game, which come after a night Uppie gets hung out to dry. That's just human nature. If your teammates don't care, why should you? Frankly it's a disservice that Lindy leaves him in on those nights. It's not helping his psyche.

Ok, I disagree with you on the fact that its always the last goals of the game. He is allowing some softies in, particularly in the 2nd period when the games are close.  What I will agree with you is...in those games where the team is falling apart, he should be switched out.  All these guys are human, and allowing goal after goal when the game is out of hand becauese your team has quit in front of you isn't good for anyone.  The season is over in terms of them making the playoffs. I know you STILL want UPL playing most games, but working in Reimer for an extra game or two wouldn't be a bad thing.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Ok, I disagree with you on the fact that its always the last goals of the game. He is allowing some softies in, particularly in the 2nd period when the games are close.  What I will agree with you is...in those games where the team is falling apart, he should be switched out.  All these guys are human, and allowing goal after goal when the game is out of hand becauese your team has quit in front of you isn't good for anyone.  The season is over in terms of them making the playoffs. I know you STILL want UPL playing most games, but working in Reimer for an extra game or two wouldn't be a bad thing.

I do think they are riding UPL to hard. Reimer should play a few more now that we are playing out the string.