Is Tage Thompson a winger?

[Carmel Corn]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It's kind of nice to be arguing that we have 4 possible legit centers for 3 jobs.  It's kinda of a nice problem to have.  This breads flexibility.  The next HC (Ruff or someone else) can mix and match to see which combos are affective.  Personally, I like TNT on the wing.  

Right now 7 of the top 9 forwards heading into next season are locked in with TNT, Tuch, JJP, Zucker, Kulich, Norris, and McLeod.   Beyond them are Greenway, Quinn, Benson and possibly Rosen fighting for the last 2 jobs in the top 9.  

Long list, but unfortunately it still needs another center.  Kulich should be a winger.

[_Q_]

39 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

Can Benson produce the type of offensive numbers that elevate him from a good checking winger into a good top 6 winger? That’s the question that’s grown in my mind watching him this season. What’s the upside?

He’s got the brain and the work ethic. Does he have the physical gifts?

Im sure it was argument in the scouting meetings as well.

Last game I noticed two different things with two different players.

1.  Two on one and Quinn still looks like he was laboring with his lower body.

2.  I saw a speed burst out of Benson into the O-Zone that I hadn't seen before.

 

If Quinn can fix #1 in the offseason with a healthy offseason busting his a$$

If Benson can be #2 with a health offseason busting his a$$

 

Then we may have something next year.

[GASabresIUFAN]

17 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Long list, but unfortunately it still needs another center.  Kulich should be a winger.

I don’t necessarily disagree.  I wrote how I think Adams views the roster.  Before the Norris trade we had arguably one true center (McLeod) and two guys masquerading as centers (Cozens and TNT) with a rookie Kulich filling in at center as needed.  After the Norris trade we have two real centers plus TNT and Kulich playing center as needed.

Where I disagree with you is I think Kulich is best suited to play center long-term, but O wouldn’t be un-happy if we acquired another experienced top 9 center.  

Edited 6 hours ago by GASabresIUFAN

[Carmel Corn]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don’t necessarily disagree.  I wrote how I think Adams views the roster.  Before the Norris trade we had arguably one true center (McLeod) and two guys masquerading as centers (Cozens and TNT) with a rookie Kulich filling in at center as needed.  After the Norris trade we have two real centers plus TNT and Kulich playing center as needed.

Where I disagree with you is I think Kulich is best suited to play center long-term.  

Fair enough….I think Kulich playing wing is the 2025 version of the TNT at center experiment.  The only real true C that I see anywhere in the organization is Östlund.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, _Q_ said:

Last game I noticed two different things with two different players.

1.  Two on one and Quinn still looks like he was laboring with his lower body.

2.  I saw a speed burst out of Benson into the O-Zone that I hadn't seen before.

 

If Quinn can fix #1 in the offseason with a healthy offseason busting his a$$

If Benson can be #2 with a health offseason busting his a$$

 

Then we may have something next year.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to reinforce where I was headed with my earlier post.

I doubt there is a single person on this site pencilling Peyton Krebs into a top 6 role next year.

Looking at these numbers, I'd say it would be prudent to treat Benson, Kulich and Quinn the same way until proven otherwise.

 

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

All four of these players have ES ATOI within 40 seconds of each other.

• Krebs ES points: 17; Goals For %: 46.3; SAT 50.9%; most common linemates Lafferty/Malenstyn
• Benson ES points: 18; Goals For % 46.7; SAT 55.7%; most common linemates Krebs/Quinn
• Kulich ES points: 19; Goals For % 50.0; SAT 52.1%; most common linemates Tage/Peterka
• Quinn ES points: 14; Goals For % 40.0; SAT 50.2%; most common linemates Peterka/Cozens

Benson’s shot attempt stats and Quinn’s +/- stick out, but I find it really hard to find compelling statistical evidence to support any of them as being significantly better than the others.

Particularly when linemates are taken into account.

 

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don’t necessarily disagree.  I wrote how I think Adams views the roster.  Before the Norris trade we had arguably one true center (McLeod) and two guys masquerading as centers (Cozens and TNT) with a rookie Kulich filling in at center as needed.  After the Norris trade we have two real centers plus TNT and Kulich playing center as needed.

Where I disagree with you is I think Kulich is best suited to play center long-term, but O wouldn’t be un-happy if we acquired another experienced top 9 center.  

I'm not sure how anyone can say Thompson was masquerading as a centre given the way he's performed in the middle.

[xzy89c1]

23 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm not sure how anyone can say Thompson was masquerading as a centre given the way he's performed in the middle.

he is a bad center. Bad defensively, bad at faceoffs, bad matching up with good centers. He scored goals but did not create for others. he is a good winger who could be a great winger with the right center.

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, xzy89c1 said:

he is a bad center. Bad defensively, bad at faceoffs, bad matching up with good centers. He scored goals but did not create for others. he is a good winger who could be a great winger with the right center.

He's not good at faceoffs, but the rest of this is objectively incorrect.

Over the past 3 seasons he has averaged 39 assists over 82 games player and has a 52.6% Goals for %

This season it's 33 and 58.4%. That's as the Sabres best offensive weapon, playing against the other team's best defenders.

By no measure is that 'bad'.

 

[Archie Lee]

My answer to the question "Is Tage Thompson a Winger" is:  It doesn't really matter, I'm just glad we have him.

If Thompson plays centre, then it kind of solves our questions re: the centre-spine. Norris is 2, McLeod is 3, Krebs is 4. We have centre depth with Kulich moving to wing and Kozak becoming a 4th line player or 13th forward. Lafferty can be waived. All of this assumes, just for discussion, no trades involving these players and no trades to bring in a new centre. 

If Thompson stays on the wing, then it messes up the spine a bit, but I'm not sure it makes adding a centre to be critical.  This is because Thompson has the offensive prowess to create 1st line production even without playing with a true #1 centre. I'm not advocating for the following (I think some roster changes to our top 9 are needed), but I think the following could work with the right coach, D-corps, goaltending:

Peterka/Norris/Thompson (offence leaning 1st line)

Zucker/Kulich/Tuch (two-way 2nd line)

Greenway/McLeod/Benson (defense leaning 3rd line)

*Malenstyn/Krebs/Kozak/Quinn/Rosen/Lafferty*

That's not a great centre spine, obviously. It is relying too much on Kulich's development, but (unlike when Cozens was young) at least he would be playing with two veterans. 

Anyway, on the wing, Thompson is our Kaprizov or Panarin.  Maybe not quite that good and not the same stylistically, but he doesn't need a #1 centre and can drive a 1st line from the wing. 

[mjd1001]

11 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

If Thompson stays on the wing, then it messes up the spine a bit, but I'm not sure it makes adding a centre to be critical.  This is because Thompson has the offensive prowess to create 1st line production even without playing with a true #1 centre. I'm not advocating for the following (I think some roster changes to our top 9 are needed), but I think the following could work with the right coach, D-corps, goaltending:

Agreed.

I only really put thought to that over the last few days.  He create his own chances, he doesn't need a typical "#1 playmaking center" to set him up.

Conventional wisdom among some is if you have a guy on the wing that is a sniper, you need a playmaker at center to set him up.  Not as much with Thompson. Whether at wing or center, he creates many of his own chances.  So don't worry about a traditional playmaking center with him, just put the best 2 players with him regardless of position who are balanced in the offensive zone and responsible defensively.

Personally, I want Tage to take some chances with the puck. I want him to go in a little deeper into the zone to generate some offense. If that means he makes a few more mistakes, so be it, providing you have someone on his line who identifies when he is doing that and helps out.  I don't think it matters much if that person is a Center or Wing, just that they mesh with him.

[mjd1001]

46 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He's not good at faceoffs, but the rest of this is objectively incorrect.

Over the past 3 seasons he has averaged 39 assists over 82 games player and has a 52.6% Goals for %

This season it's 33 and 58.4%. That's as the Sabres best offensive weapon, playing against the other team's best defenders.

By no measure is that 'bad'.

 

I agree the 'bad at defense' with Tage is just not true, and that seems to be the only fallback position for people to have that want to take shots at him.

As I just mentioned above, someone with his talent, I want taking a few more chances. Will that lead to some turnover? Sure. And yes, like EVERY player in the NHL that is a human being, they will make mistakes and turn the puck over, but I don't see him doing it much more than other players.

And then there is the point brought up a few months ago....his size and what that does in the neutral zone and defensive zone. He doesn't need to throw guys into the wall or take the puck off of their stick (by the way, he does that occasionally).  He disrupts passing lanes, deflecting passes or sometimes simply causing players to not make passes because of the ground he covers with his reach and stick. Same thing in the defensive zone.  Its the football version of being really REALLY good at Zone defense.  His strength defensively is not what you see when he directly interacts with players, but rather he prevents the other team from even attempting to do things.

That might be the very reason his underlying metrics look good, the goals scored on the ice, the positive ratio of high danger chances allowed....stuff like that.  You don't see him 'making' defensive players because he doesn't have to. His positioning is pretty sound..and with his size and that good positioning, stuff just doesn't happen as much on the ice because of it.

I actually think he is an above average defensive player because of it.

[Carmel Corn]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

He's not good at faceoffs, but the rest of this is objectively incorrect.

Over the past 3 seasons he has averaged 39 assists over 82 games player and has a 52.6% Goals for %

This season it's 33 and 58.4%. That's as the Sabres best offensive weapon, playing against the other team's best defenders.

By no measure is that 'bad'.

 

Fair enough.  My concern with TNT at center revolves around his puck handling abilities.  I feel like he’s not particularly good at passing and maintaining puck possession.  I don’t know if there are stats on this, but to my eye he is not a true center at puck management.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Thorner said:

Every team has a guy like Benson, several times over. It’s not that he isn’t good for a 19 year old, it’s that the fact he stands out SO MUCH FROM THE REST OF OUR TEAM that’s the problem 

100% 

This is something I was talking about already last year. We should NOT be noticing what Benson does as much as we do. Everything is relative. 

1 hour ago, Carmel Corn said:

Fair enough.  My concern with TNT at center revolves around his puck handling abilities.  I feel like he’s not particularly good at passing and maintaining puck possession.  I don’t know if there are stats on this, but to my eye he is not a true center at puck management.

He's not a great passer. His instincts are to shoot and that should be his role. 

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

My answer to the question "Is Tage Thompson a Winger" is:  It doesn't really matter, I'm just glad we have him.

If Thompson plays centre, then it kind of solves our questions re: the centre-spine. Norris is 2, McLeod is 3, Krebs is 4. We have centre depth with Kulich moving to wing and Kozak becoming a 4th line player or 13th forward. Lafferty can be waived. All of this assumes, just for discussion, no trades involving these players and no trades to bring in a new centre. 

If Thompson stays on the wing, then it messes up the spine a bit, but I'm not sure it makes adding a centre to be critical.  This is because Thompson has the offensive prowess to create 1st line production even without playing with a true #1 centre. I'm not advocating for the following (I think some roster changes to our top 9 are needed), but I think the following could work with the right coach, D-corps, goaltending:

Peterka/Norris/Thompson (offence leaning 1st line)

Zucker/Kulich/Tuch (two-way 2nd line)

Greenway/McLeod/Benson (defense leaning 3rd line)

*Malenstyn/Krebs/Kozak/Quinn/Rosen/Lafferty*

That's not a great centre spine, obviously. It is relying too much on Kulich's development, but (unlike when Cozens was young) at least he would be playing with two veterans. 

Anyway, on the wing, Thompson is our Kaprizov or Panarin.  Maybe not quite that good and not the same stylistically, but he doesn't need a #1 centre and can drive a 1st line from the wing. 

I’m not sure. Logically it makes sense but when you look at good teams, they almost invariably have a good C spine. And not, “oh well their wings are good”. Ya know? Centre has always been the magic sauce in the nhl. If I’m looking at a 1-2 spine of Norris and Kulich (dear lord)..I’m not seeing a lot of traditional playmaking there and my spidey sense is honestly tingling, here. Could be wrong but..

Norris 

Kulich

…at the risk of 15 years? Ehh

Edited 1 minute ago by Thorner