How much of this is on the coach?

[dudacek]

I’m trying to look at it objectively

• The team structure breaks down constantly.
• They try to play differently with the lead and fail.
• Their motivation and preparation is inconsistent at best.
• Their special teams are terrible.
• Individual players aren’t developing or improving; in fact very important ones - Power, Quinn, Benson, Cozens, Samuelsson, Lukkonen - have often looked outright bad.

I think people are focusing most of their wrath rightly on Adams, and fans are usually too quick to jump on coaches because there is so much we don’t see.

But Lindy’s past is giving him a pass. We are a poorly coached team. The eye test shows it, and most objective measures agree.

He’s taken what most of you considered a poorly coached team last year and failed to make it better in any area.

[GoPuckYourself]

These players are part of Adams vision, either drafted, through free agency or trades. His vision for this team is terrible. A soft skilled, young team who have to be told to stick up for one another.

[Ctaeth]

I'm not going to dump on lindy because all of the coaches that have tried with this group have failed.  At some point, you have to say that this is on the players because they aren't talented enough, they are mentally fragile, they are injury prone, and the team isn't deep enough to sustain injuries to their best players.  Obviously, by saying "it is the players", this also implicates the gm since he assembled the group of players (and coach fwiw).

That and he was stuck with the same group of assistant coaches.  

Undoubtedly, he deserves some of the blame as the skipper of this sinking ship.  But I'm not willing to put a large portion of the blame on him

[Weave]

The play this season and last season is amazingly similar statistically .  Tells me that the coach is not the major contributor.

Has Lindy been good enough?  No.  Is he a bigger contributor to the team’s performance than the players on the ice?  I don’t think so.

[Archie Lee]

I think Ruff has done an awful job. The only things I can really say in his defence are that we are too young and inexperienced, and that the general roster make-up is not good enough. It’s possible that we are, as much as bad coaching, watching the collapse of a fragile team’s confidence as caused by the GM’s failure to address roster shortcomings; ie: Scotty Bowman in his prime wouldn’t get this team close to the playoffs.  But, I think we have been much worse than we should be. 

I reject arguments that Ruff is undoing the bad habits from the Granato-era or that we have a bunch of privileged punks who never had to play defence and are struggling to adapt to Ruff’s system.  It shouldn’t take this long to address those issues, to the extent that they are even a thing (which I don’t think they are). 

Ruff has been murder on goalies, going back to his time in Dallas. Perhaps it’s coincidence, but that seems highly unlikely.

In a vacuum, if I could change only one area this off-season, choosing from changing the management team, to changing the coaching staff, to major roster changes, I would change the coaching staff. 

[Archie Lee]

6 minutes ago, Weave said:

The play this season and last season is amazingly similar statistically .  Tells me that the coach is not the major contributor.

Has Lindy been good enough?  No.  Is he a bigger contributor to the team’s performance than the players on the ice?  I don’t think so.

To your first paragraph, could that not also be an argument that it was and remains the coaching?  In other words, Donnie and his staff weren’t good and Lindy and his  (mostly the same) staff, are no better or worse?  

Also, we had 62 points last year at the 61 game mark (54 this year).

[Weave]

3 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

To your first paragraph, could that not also be an argument that it was and remains the coaching?  In other words, Donnie and his staff weren’t good and Lindy and his  (mostly the same) staff, are no better or worse?  

Also, we had 62 points last year at the 61 game mark (54 this year).

I mean, sure?  I guess?

This thing is a big enough mess that I don’t know how anyone can point to any one thing and say “this is the biggest problem right here”.

Other than Pegula.  We can all point at him and say “ this is the problem “ and be reasonable well assured it is accurate.

[Taro T]

33 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m trying to look at it objectively

• The team structure breaks down constantly.
• They try to play differently with the lead and fail.
• Their motivation and preparation is inconsistent at best.
• Their special teams are terrible.
• Individual players aren’t developing or improving; in fact very important ones - Power, Quinn, Benson, Cozens, Samuelsson, Lukkonen - have often looked outright bad.

I think people are focusing most of their wrath rightly on Adams, and fans are usually too quick to jump on coaches because there is so much we don’t see.

But Lindy’s past is giving him a pass. We are a poorly coached team. The eye test shows it, and most objective measures agree.

He’s taken what most of you considered a poorly coached team last year and failed to make it better in any area.

There is ONE item that is earning Ruff a pass on this debacle of a season.  The team almost always scores the 1st goal.  They're ready to play.  That wasn't the case the previous few years.

The HC sets the tone.  The assistants install the X's and O's.  This team hasn't been able to figure out who is the X and who is the O in their own end since at least Krueger's tenure (and THAT team had no idea how to play beyond its own blue line).  Every single AC (w/ the possible exception of Bales but would lean towards canning him too) should be gone.  If Adams could get Gallant to take over as HC, then sure, can Lindy too.

The fact this team is so young falls on Adams.  The fact this team still doesn't execute effective systems is on the coaching staff.  Again, the HC (or somebody, am expecting it's the HC, maybe it's somebody else) typically motivates them well enough to get out to a lead.  And then the other team settles in and the wheels fall off.  And being too young with no clue how to adjust within game explain away a large portion of that.

Add a veteran partner for Power (will have something to say about that in the Adams presser thread) and add another Zucker ideally or at least another Greenway and fix the mf coaching staff and then let's see what they can do.  Those changes might be enough to get them to a point they don't need to roll box cars 10 times in a row to make the dance.

[HOUSE]

Nice thread 

[triumph_communes]

I was #1 in bring in Ruff. He isn’t his old self and that’s what we needed. The 4th line was a total bust. Special teams is still unacceptable. 
 

I don’t know how we get a better coach as this point in time though. I think he gets one more year with a few new players 

Edited 16 hours ago by triumph_communes

[Stoner]

Lindy's demeanor comes off as this is an evaluation year for him.

You just wait til the fall!

[dudacek]

52 minutes ago, Ctaeth said:

I'm not going to dump on lindy because all of the coaches that have tried with this group have failed.

By all, you mean Don Granato?

Because Rasmus Dahlin is the only player on this team who was a regular under Ralph Krueger.

Granato put up a .457 when he had much of this group as actual NHL babies leading the way, supported by the likes of John Hayden and Vinnie Hinostroza.

He put up .555 and .512 ”developing” this group.

Lindy is .443 with a more seasoned version of the team - much better versions of Tage and Dahlin, plus guys like Greenway, Zucker, McLeod.

I think a little dumping is warranted.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by dudacek

[Archie Lee]

I don’t have the analytic communities pre-season point projections for the Sabres in front of me. My recollection though is that in Granato’s first two full years we exceeded expectations and then last year we slid back to meeting expectations. It wasn’t like we collapsed last year, we just played more or less to the expected level. I’m not longing for Granato, but in hindsight, from an outcome standpoint, what stands out is not the 23-24 regression but rather that he managed to get this team to 91 points and just short of the playoffs in 22-23.

This season, in contrast, has been a disaster. Part of this is likely out of Ruff’s control (it’s not all on Ruff). But for much of the year there was a bit of a narrative that Ruff just needed time to coach the Granato out of the players. It is a bit of a unique outlook to blame the last coach, who produced better outcomes with arguably less to work with, instead of the current coach. 

[PerreaultForever]

A few things. 

1) I think he got screwed by not bringing his own assistants in. The continuity created a sameness and he's had a hard time bringing in any sort of real change as a result. 

2) the assistants are incompetent. 

3) I think considering the desired change that training camp and the Euro trip really hurt them. They needed a boot camp and they needed to be driven hard and they needed to be told nobody had a job until they earned it. Instead they had a preset line up from the previous year, a little bonding holiday and some fun and comradery. Hence they're all happy but they lack compete. The Rochester guys got the preseason games and they look pretty good. Ruff has tried to run them at times but he's never had the time or opportunity to really do that during the season. 

As a whole I've seen the structure he wants but it just breaks down and there isn't enough internal competition or leadership to change things when things fail. I don't see any coach being able to change things with these assistants and this team philosophy.

Ultimately I see the problem with this team summed up by this. Most teams build a roster to support their young talent. Sabres expect their young talent to lead the team. It's stupid. 

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

As a whole I've seen the structure he wants but it just breaks down and there isn't enough internal competition or leadership to change things when things fail. I don't see any coach being able to change things with these assistants and this team philosophy.

 

it was so glaring in Tampa that Kucherov — proven winner and one of the best players in the world — got benched for doing things Dylan Cozens does on a daily basis without any consequences.

I expected Lindy to bring some accountability to this team. I haven't seen it.

[SabreFinn]

The roster has not been composed well. I think Norris if stayin healthy can be a missing piece among offensive players, and summer will tell If they can balance up the defense. But even with a better constructed defense roster I do not have any trust in anyone of current coaching stuff to take the team to playoff.

However, a more important question is do the players have trust in the coaching stuff? I believe not. Not after this horrible season. Not the way they play.

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m trying to look at it objectively

• The team structure breaks down constantly.
• They try to play differently with the lead and fail.
• Their motivation and preparation is inconsistent at best.
• Their special teams are terrible.
• Individual players aren’t developing or improving; in fact very important ones - Power, Quinn, Benson, Cozens, Samuelsson, Lukkonen - have often looked outright bad.

I think people are focusing most of their wrath rightly on Adams, and fans are usually too quick to jump on coaches because there is so much we don’t see.

But Lindy’s past is giving him a pass. We are a poorly coached team. The eye test shows it, and most objective measures agree.

He’s taken what most of you considered a poorly coached team last year and failed to make it better in any area.

It’s definitely a few things, I’m sure he’s not doing a particularly great job. But often a leader is only as good as those you are asking them to lead: it does so happen that all of the issues you mentioned fit nicely on a Venn diagram with the problems  associated with “youth”. And, at the end of the day, Kevyn Adams picked the coach for his players so it still trickles back up to the GM 

I’m also heavily biased because I like Lindy, yet contrastingly hate Kevyn Adams dumb stupid face 

Edited 15 hours ago by Thorner

[PerreaultForever]

31 minutes ago, dudacek said:

it was so glaring in Tampa that Kucherov — proven winner and one of the best players in the world — got benched for doing things Dylan Cozens does on a daily basis without any consequences.

I expected Lindy to bring some accountability to this team. I haven't seen it.

Agreed. When he sat Quinn that was good but it's all gone now. In fairness to Lindy though he's in the same boat as predecessors. There is no group of veteran NHLers to call up and fill in if he sits anybody. You sit a Quinn or Cozens and you what? Bring up Rosen? Team doesn't get better. This has been the problem for years and years now. Remember Kreuger sitting Skinner? I think these players all know they hold all the cards in this organization. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Stoner said:

Lindy's demeanor comes off as this is an evaluation year for him.

You just wait til the fall!

I was so annoyed when everyone was like “oh a 2 year term to tie him with Adams, they’ve got 2 more years to fix it”

Probably so mad because deep down knew it was true 

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I think a little dumping is warranted.

 

Always at work, always on company time 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

I don’t have the analytic communities pre-season point projections for the Sabres in front of me. My recollection though is that in Granato’s first two full years we exceeded expectations and then last year we slid back to meeting expectations. It wasn’t like we collapsed last year, we just played more or less to the expected level. I’m not longing for Granato, but in hindsight, from an outcome standpoint, what stands out is not the 23-24 regression but rather that he managed to get this team to 91 points and just short of the playoffs in 22-23.

This season, in contrast, has been a disaster. Part of this is likely out of Ruff’s control (it’s not all on Ruff). But for much of the year there was a bit of a narrative that Ruff just needed time to coach the Granato out of the players. It is a bit of a unique outlook to blame the last coach, who produced better outcomes with arguably less to work with, instead of the current coach. 

No chance we met expectations last year. It was a resounding fail! 84 points and 22nd place after missing the playoffs by 1 is a step back and a failure 

Even go look at the pre season projections thread 

The resounding message LAST year was “it’s time”

THIS season was supposed to be about “he gets fired if he doesn’t do it” 

There’s no accountability 

- - - 

I see now you mean relative to whatever analytical predictions were made but knowing those are an almagamation of the results of several years I don’t find them that reasonable a barometer of expectation 

Edited 15 hours ago by Thorner

[Archie Lee]

1 minute ago, Thorner said:

No chance we met expectations last year. It was a resounding fail! 84 points and 22nd place after missing the playoffs by 1 is a step back and a failure 

Even go look at the pre season projections thread 

You are talking about fan expectations. I agree they fell short there.  I’m talking about what the people who crunch the numbers thought was realistic for last year’s team. The analytics community was pretty clear in their view that the Sabres overachieved with their 91 point season in 22-23. When Adams did nothing to improve the team that off-season, the point projections for the Sabres for 23-24 were around 83-85, which was where they finished. I remember listening to a podcast where the analysts were saying that the Sabres were the team that most people will disagree with them on, because the Sabres were viewed as up and coming. But the numbers simply did not support they had the talent level of a playoff team. 

[Thorner]

Just now, Archie Lee said:

You are talking about fan expectations. I agree they fell short there.  I’m talking about what the people who crunch the numbers thought was realistic for last year’s team. The analytics community was pretty clear in their view that the Sabres overachieved with their 91 point season in 22-23. When Adams did nothing to improve the team that off-season, the point projections for the Sabres for 23-24 were around 83-85, which was where they finished. I remember listening to a podcast where the analysts were saying that the Sabres were the team that most people will disagree with them on, because the Sabres were viewed as up and coming. But the numbers simply did not support they had the talent level of a playoff team. 

I edited my post, I still don’t really agree. I’d say equalling and surpassing 91 was actually a much more statistically accurate expectation. Those models are always behind: again the projection for the following year would be reflective of several years previous not just 22/23

[LGR4GM]

I think Wilford sucks

[Ctaeth]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

By all, you mean Don Granato?

Because Rasmus Dahlin is the only player on this team who was a regular under Ralph Krueger.

Granato put up a .457 when he had much of this group as actual NHL babies leading the way, supported by the likes of John Hayden and Vinnie Hinostroza.

He put up .555 and .512 ”developing” this group.

Lindy is .443 with a more seasoned version of the team - much better versions of Tage and Dahlin, plus guys like Greenway, Zucker, McLeod.

I think a little dumping is warranted.

 

I didn't say he was free from blame.  However, what I did imply is you shouldn't be putting this squarely on his shoulders when he inherited a team that had minimal turnover and hasn't made the playoffs for a decade plus.  Didn't even get to choose his own assistant coaches.  It's pretty much last years team with a different fourth line.

Sure, are they a little worse?  Yep.  But would they have made the playoffs with a different coach?  No, i don't believe so.  Do you think a different coach is going to have this roster (prior to the cozens trade) in the playoffs?

[Brawndo]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Wilford sucks

He does