Sabres Trade Dylan Cozens/Dennis Gilbert and 2026 2nd Round Pick to Ottawa for Josh Norris and Bernard Docker

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 minutes ago, Thorner said:

Do the facts matter?

Jeff Skinner had played 579 games out of 622 possible at the time we acquired him. Averaging 76 per 82. He had missed 3 games total the 3 seasons previous, including playing two full 82 game seasons in those 3.

Norris had played 233 games out of 363 possible games… an average of 53 per 82. He had never played more than 66 in a season and only managed 60+ once. 

Comrie, again. 

the proof is in the pudding. Norris does not play the games 

- - - 

“well, it’s not the shoulder this time.”

Ok, well, “not the shoulder” has Norris on track to miss, just this season, 60% of the total amount of games skinner missed, his entire career, prior to being traded to buffalo 

Defense rests!  Well said.  

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Defense rests!  Well said.  

Had to bring facts back after whiffing on empty net goals 

[dudacek]

I can’t get on board an argument that says Josh Norris is going to miss games with injuries other than a shoulder because he missed a lot of games with a bad shoulder.

Come on man, there is no logic in that.

There is an obvious injury question with Norris: he’s had 3 surgeries on his shoulder.

There is no other injury history.

It’s like trading for Eichel: are we confident the neck can be fixed?

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Defense rests!  Well said.  

Now do Byram.

 

[Thorny]

Just now, dudacek said:

Now do Byram.

 

He stinks 

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I can’t get on board an argument that says Josh Norris is going to miss games with injuries other than a shoulder because he missed a lot of games with a bad shoulder.

Come on man, there is no logic in that.

There is an obvious injury question with Norris: he’s had 3 surgeries on his shoulder.

There is no other injury history.

It’s like trading for Eichel: are we confident the neck can be fixed?

There is other injury history. He’s hurt right now 

[Thorny]

Norris could get healthy and bounce back. Let me just put that out there. My point merely is that there’s a legitimate concern he’s going to struggle to play games because…he has struggled to play games. The Skinner comp wasn’t a good one, that’s all.

“Legitimate concern” is too generous, really. I would not think it more likely he plays a full season I would expect the opposite most likely 

Edited April 1 by Thorner

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Now do Byram.

 

We weren't discussing Byram, nor did I bring up his injury history.  

The Sabres acquired Norris and within 3 games of arrival he was already hurt and is likely to miss the remainder of the season.  This will mark his 5th straight season in a 5 year career in the NHL without playing a full season.  Sure it's possible that he now goes on to play 80+ for the next 7 years, but how likely is that given his history?

[PromoTheRobot]

Who gets injured more? Norris or Greenway?

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Who gets injured more? Norris or Greenway?

429 games played out of 526 possible 

67 games per 82 average for Greenway

Anecdotally I think players start to “feel” injury prone when they get to around that 10-15 lost per year mark on average 

Edited April 1 by Thorner

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Who gets injured more? Norris or Greenway?

idk what we inherited with Norris but he's had several major shoulder surgeries so I'd say he's potentially fragile. Why a big guy like Greenway keeps missing games is anybody's guess. 

[dudacek]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Why a big guy like Greenway keeps missing games is anybody's guess. 

Because 'little guys get hurt more, big guys are durable' is one of the more overrated tropes in hockey.

You twist your knee sharply at 20 miles an hour, take a slash to the wrist or a puck to the jaw, or hit the boards hard, being 180 or 220 is irrelevant.

The second most relevant issue to injuries is play style: how reckless are you with your body? The 3rd is responding to them in a way that maximizes recovery and minimizes any long-term effects: if/how you play through them, take time off, treatment, therapy, surgery etc. Genetics and age play a role in some types of injuries: do you break and tear easily? Heal quickly?

But the most relevant factor is luck.

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Because 'little guys get hurt more, big guys are durable' is one of the more overrated tropes in hockey.

But the most relevant factor is luck.

Luck (which in my experience... nevermind) and how you play.

If you play like Dahlin (fights in practice, after-whistle scrums, getting run by the opposition to get you off your game because you're essentially the only threat and you're known for retaliating) you are likely to miss some time. Brady Tkachuk has been remarkably durable, but the other Tkachuks get injuries -- they just burn bright when they're on the ice.

Meanwhile, if you play like Power (nothing after the whistle, not even a hug; no body checks or reckless out-of-position sliding/diving blocks; and generally avoiding contact; and no one needs to run you because -- why?) you're going to stay healthy. Pominville was an ironman until a freak skate blade caught his Achilles.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Because 'little guys get hurt more, big guys are durable' is one of the more overrated tropes in hockey.

You twist your knee sharply at 20 miles an hour, take a slash to the wrist or a puck to the jaw, or hit the boards hard, being 180 or 220 is irrelevant.

The second most relevant issue to injuries is play style: how reckless are you with your body? The 3rd is responding to them in a way that maximizes recovery and minimizes any long-term effects: if/how you play through them, take time off, treatment, therapy, surgery etc. Genetics and age play a role in some types of injuries: do you break and tear easily? Heal quickly?

But the most relevant factor is luck.

I agree that how you play matters quite a bit. The way the rules have changed for example there's a lot of slim young kids who haven't learned to protect themselves along the wall. They turn and face the boards as if they are invulnerable and if they get a shot from behind (which might be a penalty but still happens) they are done. In the old days you wouldn't do that. You'd be coached from doing it. Lots of other things but I never said it was about size. It's more about strength and conditioning. It's just that the big guys are usually stronger and have more upper body strength. I have no idea why Greenway is out so much. I see nothing on ice that would be taking hits or doing something that would result in it. He just seems injury prone. 

As for Norris, he is quite light looking, as is Quinn. Looking at them they don't look like guys who have a lot of upper body strength. Benson's small but he has a broader looking build for his size despite his age so I think he will be okay even going into those tight areas. Norris I worry about. Not sure if those shoulders could handle playoff hockey at all should we ever get there. A guy like Bennett could end him game 1. 

[shrader]

I just saw the highlights. That was a beautiful assist from Cozens tonight. 

[Sabres73]

48 minutes ago, shrader said:

I just saw the highlights. That was a beautiful assist from Cozens tonight. 

Cozens was a -4 tonight.

[Night Train]

15 hours ago, Sabres73 said:

Cozens was a -4 tonight.

Got nothing for him but addition by subtraction looks like the result. Norris is All-Whirlpool. 

[dudacek]

Further to the injury discussion:

At the trade deadline the Sabres invested nearly $17M in 3 forwards for next year: Norris, Greenway and Zucker.

They have combined for 21 of a possible 39 games since.

The have also combined for 2 goals and 5 assists and a -7.

Lucky we don't believe in paces from small sample sizes any more.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Further to the injury discussion:

At the trade deadline the Sabres invested nearly $17M in 3 forwards for next year: Norris, Greenway and Zucker.

They have combined for 21 of a possible 39 games since.

The have also combined for 2 goals and 5 assists and a -7.

Lucky we don't believe in paces from small sample sizes any more.

Unless they line up with the lions share of data from the past. Ie Norris and greenway struggling to stay healthy 

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Further to the injury discussion:

At the trade deadline the Sabres invested nearly $17M in 3 forwards for next year: Norris, Greenway and Zucker.

They have combined for 21 of a possible 39 games since.

The have also combined for 2 goals and 5 assists and a -7.

Lucky we don't believe in paces from small sample sizes any more.

Think of the LTIR potential when they spend to the cap next year. Bahahahhahahhahahahahaa, yeah who the hell am I kidding 

[Rasmus_]

More of the same with Norris being out already.  As if he was going to be anything more than he was.  Such a garbage return for Dylan.

[kas23]

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

Further to the injury discussion:

At the trade deadline the Sabres invested nearly $17M in 3 forwards for next year: Norris, Greenway and Zucker.

They have combined for 21 of a possible 39 games since.

The have also combined for 2 goals and 5 assists and a -7.

Lucky we don't believe in paces from small sample sizes any more.

Zucker is streaky. When he’s on, he’s on. As for Norris, would love for KA to explain if he knew of this mystery injury prior to trading for him. And if not, why it wasn’t disclosed at the physical. I like the concept of Greenway, but I don’t think we should’ve signed him. His worst ability, which is on display very often, is availability. Dude is constantly injured. 

[mjd1001]

5 hours ago, Rasmus_ said:

More of the same with Norris being out already.  As if he was going to be anything more than he was.  Such a garbage return for Dylan.

I'm still totally happy with the trade. Why? I don't think there was much of a market for Cozens.  Norris appears to be a very good player who has some injury issues.  A lottery ticket in a way. I'm more than happy to exchange Cozens for a lotter ticket.

There always seemed to be rumors about other teams being interested in Cozens, but they were only rumors, and no concrete offers really came out of them, my guess is because there weren't any.  This may very well have been the best offer out there.

[North Buffalo]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm still totally happy with the trade. Why? I don't think there was much of a market for Cozens.  Norris appears to be a very good player who has some injury issues.  A lottery ticket in a way. I'm more than happy to exchange Cozens for a lotter ticket.

There always seemed to be rumors about other teams being interested in Cozens, but they were only rumors, and no concrete offers really came out of them, my guess is because there weren't any.  This may very well have been the best offer out there.

Docker has been a good defender and helps stabilize D probable long term 5-6 seems to help Power

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Docker has been a good defender and helps stabilize D probable long term 5-6 seems to help Power

He’s got that quietly reliable in his own zone thing going so far, at least by the eye test.

Lindy’s run out today’s D pairings in 6 of the past 7. The one time he didn’t Dahlin got sick and that was the one loss.

In those 6 games:

• Dahlin 2 5 7 +7 22:37
• Samuelsson 1 4 5 +6 20:26
• Power 0 2 2 +1 18:40
• Bernard-Docker 1 2 3 +3 14:23
• Byram 0 2 2 +6 21:41
• Clifton 0 5 5 +6 20:20

(Somebody hide this post from @Thorner 😬)

Looks like it would be a mistake to say Docker has elevated Power; they seem to be the 3rd pair. No one should be particularly surprised that Dahlin has elevated Mule, but the success of Byram Clifton is an eyebrow raiser.

Fancy stats paint a different story (includes the Philly loss)

• Dahlin 44.2%
• Samuelsson 34.9%
• Power 44.6%
• Bernard Docker 40.3%
• Byram 42.6%
• Clifton 40.8%

All of these guys are below their SAT rates for their year during this hot streak.

Edited April 6 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

All of these guys are below their SAT rates for their year during this hot streak.

Because they aren’t good defensemen. They literally have no idea how to in zone defense.  They can’t kill penalties.  

I don’t know how else or how many times I have to say this, outside of Dahlin no one in our D group is capable of playing solid consistent defense.  It may be the worst group of “defensemen” in the NHL.  We need to flush the lines and re-think how we approach the defense, otherwise it won’t matter how many goals we score or how well our goalies play; this team will remain a loser picking 8th.