Sabres Trade Dylan Cozens/Dennis Gilbert and 2026 2nd Round Pick to Ottawa for Josh Norris and Bernard Docker

[ska-T Palmtown]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Because they aren’t good defensemen. They literally have no idea how to in zone defense.  They can’t kill penalties.  

I don’t know how else or how many times I have to say this, outside of Dahlin no one in our D group is capable of playing solid consistent defense.  It may be the worst group of “defensemen” in the NHL.  We need to flush the lines and re-think how we approach the defense, otherwise it won’t matter how many goals we score or how well our goalies play; this team will remain a loser picking 8th.

 

(Obligatory response about how "defense" is a team game and it usually seems like the coaches forgot to tell the forwards that. The general concept amongst GOOD defensive teams is to out-number the offensive team on the puck. O sends 2 fwds into the corner - you send your strong side D, C and strong side winger. GET. THE. PUCK. The Sabres are constantly outnumbered on the puck in their own zone. It is infuriating.)

**Disclaimer: The above post in no way constitutes approval of the sometimes (often?) clueless play of defensemen not named Dahlin; rather it is intended to serve as an indictment of how the Sabres, as a team, "play" defense.

Edited Sunday at 02:25 PM by ska-T Palmtown

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

(Obligatory response about how "defense" is a team game and it usually seems like the coaches forgot to tell the forwards that. The general concept amongst GOOD defensive teams is to out-number the offensive team on the puck. O sends 2 fwds into the corner - you send your strong side D, C and strong side winger. GET. THE. PUCK. The Sabres are constantly outnumbered on the puck in their own zone. It is infuriating.)

**Disclaimer: The above post in no way constitutes approval of the sometimes (often?) clueless play of defensemen not named Dahlin; rather it is intended to serve as an indictment of how the Sabres, as a team, "play" defense.

Ok, I'm going to start out by saying the Defensemen on this team are NOT stellar.  I'm not doing an all out defense of the defensemen.

However, I'm going to say something I have said other times on this board:

The forward play in their own zone often makes the defensemen look a lot worse than they are.

Again, they defensemen aren't all great, not even close. But many times, MANY times I'll watch a goal scored against the Sabres and the D-men look out of position, or look like they don't know what to do. The replay seemingly confirms that.....BUT....

Watch the replay from other angles and you get a different story. Watch the play develop not 2-4 seconds before the goal is scored, but watch it a few seconds beyond that and you get a different story.

Many times when you watch other angles other than what you see on TV, you see forwards floating back into the Zone. You see forwards that are chasing the puck instead of playing their zone or covering a man.  And what happens?  Defensemen have to make a choice...to stay in THEIR zone covering THEIR guy...or to play things 'half way' and not vacate their zone but to cheat toward the open winger or D-man from the other team that was left uncovered while the Sabres forward is playing pond hockey.  

In those situations where a goal is scored against the Sabres, the D-men look clueless but in reality they were put in a bad situation by the forwards, and have to play things 'half way' and can't react to puck going down low.

How about this one, watch the Sabres D-men on a 2 on 2 or a 3 on 2 against and you'll see something (especially if you are lucky enough to go to a game in person and sit close to the ice) that you don't see as much with other teams. The Sabres D-men pointing, yelling, and sometimes FRANTICALLY pointing and yelling at opposing players that they want the forwards to cover, as the forwards often just skate back with their heads down not knowing what the heck they are doing.

Again, the Defensemen make mistakes on this team. They are not a good unit, but they aren't as bad as many think. Coverage help from the forwards goes a long way to good team defense.  

I will maintain the Sabres woes allowing goals this year are primarily on bad UPL play. But beyond that, I think it is just as much, if not more the fault of the forwards play in the D-zone as it is the Defensmans play in the D-zone.

If the Sabres do go out and get a higher priced, veteran D-man to help out, you just may find that, without improved play of the forward group in the Sabres zone, that 'veteran' D-man will not look as good as we hope.

Probably the BEST way to illustrate this is the PK.  You can go onto NHL.com and view replays of every single goal the Sabres allow shorthanded. There are 2 things that are true more than not. 1.) the Sabres PK is much better when they maintain their PK "box". They allow the most goals when that 'box' loses its shape or integrity.  2.) the VAST majority of the time they lose that positioning/integrity, it is because of the FORWARDS getting out of position and chasing, not the D-men.  Not 100% of the time, but much more than not if you watch all the replays. (I personally watched the replay from multiple angles of every single goal the Sabres allowed this year up until about 2 months ago when I just got tired of doing it)

Edited Sunday at 04:19 PM by mjd1001

[Flashsabre]

Do any of the analytics people on the site have the Power-Bernard Docker pairing numbers? They seem to be decent from an eye test 

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Do any of the analytics people on the site have the Power-Bernard Docker pairing numbers? They seem to be decent from an eye test 

Like most Sabres D-men, he has great numbers when out there with Dahlin, pretty average-to-below average when with anyone else.

With 50 being 'neutral' (same for vs against when on ice):

In about 10 minutes of ice time with Dahlin: Corsi 61.1, Fenwick 64.3, Shots 75.0,  Expected goals 58.1, Scoring chances 50, High danger chances 50.

In the 98 minutes with ANYONE other than Dahlin: Corsi 39.3, Fenwick 41.5, shots 45, Expected goals 43.4, scoring chances 38.5, high danger chances 36.4

Most of his 5 on 5 ice time is with Power (78 minutes).

With Power (78 minutes): Corsi 43, Fenwick 44.8, shots 47.6, Expected goals 47.2, scoring chances 44.3, high danger chances 37.0.

Don't look at his numbers with Samuelsson. Its only about 10 minute together but they are ugly.

Edited Sunday at 09:10 PM by mjd1001

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Like most Sabres D-men, he has great numbers when out there with Dahlin, pretty average-to-below average when with anyone else.

With 50 being 'neutral' (same for vs against when on ice):

In about 10 minutes of ice time with Dahlin: Corsi 61.1, Fenwick 64.3, Shots 75.0,  Expected goals 58.1, Scoring chances 50, High danger chances 50.

In the 98 minutes with ANYONE other than Dahlin: Corsi 39.3, Fenwick 41.5, shots 45, Expected goals 43.4, scoring chances 38.5, high danger chances 36.4

Most of his 5 on 5 ice time is with Power (78 minutes).

With Power (78 minutes): Corsi 43, Fenwick 44.8, shots 47.6, Expected goals 47.2, scoring chances 44.3, high danger chances 37.0.

Don't look at his numbers with Samuelsson. Its only about 10 minute together but they are ugly.

Question then becomes, what does Power do that Samuelsson can't. That's what's complimentary to Docker. 

[mjd1001]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Question then becomes, what does Power do that Samuelsson can't. That's what's complimentary to Docker. 

Not sure, but 2 things to note. He only has about 10 minutes with Samuelsson.  One or two extra shot attempt either way can vary the numbers greatly.

To me the bigger issue is, while it is a very small sample size and we need more time, his overall numbers are pretty much what most guys on this team are:  very good with Dahlin, average-to-below average with anyone else.

I think I need a larger sample size on him to take much away from the analytics.

Edited Sunday at 09:17 PM by mjd1001

[MattPie]

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Not sure, but 2 things to note. He only has about 10 minutes with Samuelsson.  One or two extra shot attempt either way can vary the numbers greatly.

To me the bigger issue is, while it is a very small sample size and we need more time, his overall numbers are pretty much what most guys on this team are:  very good with Dahlin, average-to-below average with anyone else.

I think I need a larger sample size on him to take much away from the analytics.

So you're saying the team just needs more Dahlin-level players?

[Pimlach]

9 hours ago, MattPie said:

So you're saying the team just needs more Dahlin-level players?

Power and Byram are supposed to be Dahlin level players (or close to it),  but they are not in the defensive zone. 

[DarthEbriate]

25 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Power and Byram are supposed to be Dahlin level players (or close to it),  but they are not in the defensive zone. 

Power (239 career GP) and Byram (240 GP) are currently where Dahlin was at the halfway point of his age 21 season.  

Dahlin's 2021-22 (HCDG's first full year), typically paired with Joker (and Pysyk, then Muel at the very end of the year) and went 13-40-53  -22. Was the Sabres' rep for the ASG. The following season was his leaguewide breakout and he's received Norris votes ever since.

Adams has to be banking on Power and Byram following suit next season (right around 280 GP).

[John Tucker]

On 4/5/2025 at 6:28 PM, mjd1001 said:

I'm still totally happy with the trade. Why? I don't think there was much of a market for Cozens.  Norris appears to be a very good player who has some injury issues.  A lottery ticket in a way. I'm more than happy to exchange Cozens for a lotter ticket.

There always seemed to be rumors about other teams being interested in Cozens, but they were only rumors, and no concrete offers really came out of them, my guess is because there weren't any.  This may very well have been the best offer out there.

Agreed... even with Norris out, the forwards seem to be playing better with the subtraction of Cozens.  

[Mustache of God]

Take it with a grain of salt, but I went to the game over the weekend with someone who knows some of the coaching staff and we were talking about the Cozens trade. They said he's got a lot of talent, and his breakout year he was able to catch other teams off their guard. Once teams paid attention to him and started game planning around him his production died because he's "***** dumb" and has horrible hockey IQ. He was unable to adjust his game and that's why we've seen such a decline in his play. Other teams figured him out and he's a one trick pony work horse. 

As for the defensive coach being retained last year, which absolutely blew my mind, he as kept because Dahlin and Power both heavily advocated to keep him. 

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, John Tucker said:

Agreed... even with Norris out, the forwards seem to be playing better with the subtraction of Cozens.  

As I posted in another thread....Krebs stepping up into a bigger role with 'top 6' wingers....he is taking advantage of it.

Krebs is putting up better numbers in that role (albeit very limited games) than Cozens did when he was in that role.

[Thorner]

31 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

As I posted in another thread....Krebs stepping up into a bigger role with 'top 6' wingers....he is taking advantage of it.

Krebs is putting up better numbers in that role (albeit very limited games) than Cozens did when he was in that role.

I’d give him a shot there to start next year 

addition by subtraction, Mensa level player relative to Dylan “grade 10 level intelligence” Cozens 

[inkman]

48 minutes ago, Thorner said:

I’d give him a shot there to start next year 

addition by subtraction, Mensa level player relative to Dylan “grade 10 level intelligence” Cozens 

Östlund and Helenius are quite heady as well.  The future looks bright, it’s the present that kinda sucks.  

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, inkman said:

Östlund and Helenius are quite heady as well.  The future looks bright, it’s the present that kinda sucks.  

Unfortunately when you wake up tomorrow it’s always the present again  

[inkman]

7 minutes ago, Thorner said:

Unfortunately when you wake up tomorrow it’s always the present again  

[ska-T Palmtown]

I just remembered a convo I had with a buddy back in the Heroic Charge to 9th Place Season where he wanted Cozens for Patty Kane (when Kaner was with the 'Hawks) ... boy if only that could have worked out ...

[Cascade Youth]

Tbh Cozens not being very bright would explain a lot of what we saw out there…

[sabremike]

17 hours ago, Mustache of God said:

 he's "***** dumb" and has horrible hockey IQ. 

Wonder if the coach who said that recognizes it describes a supermajority of our current roster?

[Doohickie]

4 hours ago, sabremike said:

Wonder if the coach who said that recognizes it describes a supermajority of our current roster?

Or if the system itself dumbs down the players on the team?

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Or if the system itself dumbs down the players on the team?

Cozens issues extend across multiple coaches. It seems once he was asked to do more than just blow the zone and score points, his game didn't adapt. I'm very curious to see him in the playoffs. 

[Believer]

22 hours ago, Mustache of God said:

Once teams paid attention to him and started game planning around him his production died because he's "***** dumb" and has horrible hockey IQ.

If true, explains a lot.

Also indicates Adams doesn’t pay enough attention to player IQ when drafting.

Adams could have drafted Caulfield, Zegras, or Krebs ahead of Cozens.

Maybe Adams is dumb.

[JohnC]

23 hours ago, Mustache of God said:

Take it with a grain of salt, but I went to the game over the weekend with someone who knows some of the coaching staff and we were talking about the Cozens trade. They said he's got a lot of talent, and his breakout year he was able to catch other teams off their guard. Once teams paid attention to him and started game planning around him his production died because he's "***** dumb" and has horrible hockey IQ. He was unable to adjust his game and that's why we've seen such a decline in his play. Other teams figured him out and he's a one trick pony work horse. 

As for the defensive coach being retained last year, which absolutely blew my mind, he as kept because Dahlin and Power both heavily advocated to keep him. 

As you point out, he lacked hockey IQ. I've felt because he lacked that essential trait for a centerman that he should have instead played wing. In the international tournaments he would usually play the wing position. When positioned there he would usually play really well with the top players in the sport. For this particular player: less thinking results in better play. 

[PromoTheRobot]

41 minutes ago, Believer said:

If true, explains a lot.

Also indicates Adams doesn’t pay enough attention to player IQ when drafting.

Adams could have drafted Caulfield, Zegras, or Krebs ahead of Cozens.

Maybe Adams is dumb.

Okay now do the Quinn, Benson, Östlund, Kulich and Peterka (which included a trade-up) drafts?

[Doohickie]

58 minutes ago, Believer said:

If true, explains a lot.

Also indicates Adams doesn’t pay enough attention to player IQ when drafting.

Adams could have drafted Caulfield, Zegras, or Krebs ahead of Cozens.

Maybe Adams is dumb.

Maybe this isn't as easy to see in young players as the armchair quarterbacks around here like to think.