Sabres Trade Dylan Cozens/Dennis Gilbert and 2026 2nd Round Pick to Ottawa for Josh Norris and Bernard Docker

[Archie Lee]

9 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Well, Cozens could score 40 next year and it wouldn't matter much to many of us.  He wasn't doing it here, he showed no signs he was going to do it here.

Ok, but if Cozens finds his game in Ottawa, the important variables won’t be the water, or the humidity, or the cuisine. The variables will be the hockey environment: who he plays with, what he’s asked to do, how well he is coached, what the expectations are, etc.  If Cozens turns it around in Ottawa, then it means he WAS capable of turning it around and that the reason it wasn’t working here was less Cozens and more Sabres (of course, way too early to conclude anything). 

[JohnC]

35 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Wrong.

It may be an idictment of the organiztion, but as I said it wasn't happening here.

For 5 years he has been a negative player defensively. For 5 years he has not made his linemates better. For 4 of those 5 years, he has been put in a situation where he has been a regular on the PP and a #2 center and has been one of the absolute worst players in that role in the entire league.

Peterka and Kulich are young and while not perfect, early signs are they are better (Peterka) and MUCH better (Kulich) than Cozens ever was away from the puck, and better overall with shooting scoring. They have been in this organization their entire careers so far.  Thompson turned into one of the best scorers in the league while here. Tuch blossomed into one of the better clutch players/best forcheckers/30 goal scorer here (and it looks like it may be more than one year.)

This organization and the development staff here is bad, they should be turning out more good players than they are.   But some players have succeeded here and gotten better. Cozens was never that good and he was getting worse. He needed to go.

Cozens was a BAD hockey player here. 2 coaches, 3 'system's in the past 3 years. It was NOT changing here.

When discussing Cozens's lack of productivity/performance here the more critical issue is not about the particular player as it is why. What is it about our multi-plagued system that inhibits a young player here while when relocated becomes almost instantly a better player. I'm not predicting that Cozens is going to be an exceptional player who becomes a mainstay player for his new team. What I'm comfortable in predicting is that Cozens will become a much better and contributing player in Ottawa than he did in Buffalo. 

Why will there be an almost instant positive change in performance for the dealt player? The answer for me is that our ill-equipped GM had a rebuild blueprint that was too dependent on young players before they were adequately prepared to play in the NHL. When you play men against the more naturally talented boys in a men's league, it's not a surprise that the men will be more equipped to handle the rigors of the more muscular big league. And even when the young players had the ability to play in the big league, they had roles that were too high for them. 

The rebuild strategy that our overwhelmed GM took is not unusual. It is predicated on rebuilding with youth. His mistake was that he did not have enough support players to guide the younger players in their development. It was too much too soon for many of them. 

The moral of the story is: When you get stuck and lost in a sewer system it shouldn't be a surprise that you come out with a hideous stench. 

[mjd1001]

38 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Ok, but if Cozens finds his game in Ottawa, the important variables won’t be the water, or the humidity, or the cuisine. The variables will be the hockey environment: who he plays with, what he’s asked to do, how well he is coached, what the expectations are, etc.  If Cozens turns it around in Ottawa, then it means he WAS capable of turning it around and that the reason it wasn’t working here was less Cozens and more Sabres (of course, way too early to conclude anything). 

I posted this earlier or in another thread...

I'm not saying the organization is not at fault for a lot of stuff. They are. But to me why this is more on Cozens?

-Tage is a 45+ goal per 82 guy. Tuch is closing in on his 2nd 30 goal season in 3  years here while being a plus player.  Peterka and Kulich are showing early signs that they are better and/or more complete players than Cozens.

If those guys can do it at Forward, why has Cozens game never developed through 5 years away from the puck? And why has his overall game regressed?

Yeah, the organization has a lot to do with it...but if Cozens and Quinn were really the ONLY 2 forwards on this team that have regressed and been so bad they are deeply negative players...that has as much, if not more, to do with the players.

The failure of the organization is putting him in a role he cannot handle and is not suited for. The actual act of failing is is his.  If he succeeds someplace else in a different role, it might very well be that it is because he was placed in that different role.

Edited yesterday at 01:02 PM by mjd1001

[_Q_]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

When discussing Cozens's lack of productivity/performance here the more critical issue is not about the particular player as it is why. What is it about our multi-plagued system that inhibits a young player here while when relocated becomes almost instantly a better player. I'm not predicting that Cozens is going to be an exceptional player who becomes a mainstay player for his new team. What I'm comfortable in predicting is that Cozens will become a much better and contributing player in Ottawa than he did in Buffalo. 

Why will there be an almost instant positive change in performance for the dealt player? The answer for me is that our ill-equipped GM had a rebuild blueprint that was too dependent on young players before they were adequately prepared to play in the NHL. When you play men against the more naturally talented boys in a men's league, it's not a surprise that the men will be more equipped to handle the rigors of the more muscular big league. And even when the young players had the ability to play in the big league, they had roles that were too high for them. 

The rebuild strategy that our overwhelmed GM took is not unusual. It is predicated on rebuilding with youth. His mistake was that he did not have enough support players to guide the younger players in their development. It was too much too soon for many of them. 

The moral of the story is: When you get stuck and lost in a sewer system it shouldn't be a surprise that you come out with a hideous stench. 

Actually in many cases it simply is the particular player.

[EM88]

I did not think Cozens was fitting on the Sabres. Other than when the Sabres play Ottawa, I do hope he succeeds there. As a person and as far as putting effort into the Sabres, he did well in Buffalo. 

Regarding his success there more time is needed obviously. He does have 1 goal and 1 assist, but  in the 2 games he has played his overall play still does not look good.

In his 2 games, when he is on the ice the team has a -3 corsi % and a -15 fenwick %.  Cozens on ice Ottawa has given up 4 more shots than they have taken, and are also negative in scoring chances for vs against, as well as negative in high danger scoring chances for vs against.

He scored a goal that helped them win.  But you do not have to go very deep at all into possession numbers to see when he has been on the ice, the Senators are worse positionally than they are when he is on the bench, and they are giving up more shots and legit chances than they are getting already through 2 games.

[JohnC]

20 minutes ago, _Q_ said:

Actually in many cases it simply is the particular player.

I'm not saying you are wrong with respect to this particular player. I'm just not sure. However, let's wait and see with respect to Cozens. I'm confident that Cozens is going to be a much better player in Ottawa than he was here in his last year. It was apparent that Cozens was playing too tightly. It appears (my opinion) that the stress was affecting his game. Let's just watch and see how things play out for him in Ottawa. He's not the only player who has gotten subsumed in this toxic environment. You can see the say depressing effect happening to Quinn. 

[_Q_]

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not saying you are wrong with respect to this particular player. I'm just not sure. However, let's wait and see with respect to Cozens. I'm confident that Cozens is going to be a much better player in Ottawa than he was here in his last year. It was apparent that Cozens was playing too tightly. It appears (my opinion) that the stress was affecting his game. Let's just watch and see how things play out for him in Ottawa. He's not the only player who has gotten subsumed in this toxic environment. You can see the say depressing effect happening to Quinn. 

Agree to disagree about Quinn.  One particular moment in last nights game it was obvious he is either still favoring his legs or just doesn't have them back like he did preinjury.

I am holding off judgement on him until he can get in the weight room for a full offseason not rehabbing from injury.

[LGR4GM]

Guess who just scored. 

[thewookie1]

20 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Guess who just scored. 

It sort of just feels like an endless cruel joke

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

It sort of just feels like an endless cruel joke

Steve Beniers. Just wait for it. 

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Steve Beniers. Just wait for it. 

Bernier. 

[Second Line Center]

16 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Wrong.

It may be an idictment of the organiztion, but as I said it wasn't happening here.

For 5 years he has been a negative player defensively. For 5 years he has not made his linemates better. For 4 of those 5 years, he has been put in a situation where he has been a regular on the PP and a #2 center and has been one of the absolute worst players in that role in the entire league.

Peterka and Kulich are young and while not perfect, early signs are they are better (Peterka) and MUCH better (Kulich) than Cozens ever was away from the puck, and better overall with shooting scoring. They have been in this organization their entire careers so far.  Thompson turned into one of the best scorers in the league while here. Tuch blossomed into one of the better clutch players/best forcheckers/30 goal scorer here (and it looks like it may be more than one year.)

This organization and the development staff here is bad, they should be turning out more good players than they are.   But some players have succeeded here and gotten better. Cozens was never that good and he was getting worse. He needed to go.

Cozens was a BAD hockey player here. 2 coaches, 3 'system's in the past 3 years. It was NOT changing here.

 

Points in 3 straight games for Ottawa.  2 goals 1 assist.  
 

He hasn’t had points in 3 straight games since 2022.  
 

I’m sure it’s just a blip.   

[mjd1001]

6 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

 

Points in 3 straight games for Ottawa.  2 goals 1 assist.  
 

He hasn’t had points in 3 straight games since 2022.  
 

I’m sure it’s just a blip.   

Doesn't matter if its a 'blip'. He showed no sign he was going to do it here. He wasn't a fit here.

5 years of bad defensive play.  2 coaches. apparently 2 different systems under Granato.  A career under 10% shooter.  No matter who you put him with, every single linemate did worse with him than without him.

He can score 45 goals for Ottawa and its not a bad trade. If he did that, its because he needed a change. He wasn't playing well here for years.

[inkman]

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Steve Beniers. Just wait for it. 

[SwampD]

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Steve Beniers. Just wait for it. 

I really don’t think so with Cozens. He needed to leave Buffalo to find it.

Like you mentioned upthread, I see this trade working for both teams.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Doesn't matter if its a 'blip'. He showed no sign he was going to do it here. He wasn't a fit here.

5 years of bad defensive play.  2 coaches. apparently 2 different systems under Granato.  A career under 10% shooter.  No matter who you put him with, every single linemate did worse with him than without him.

He can score 45 goals for Ottawa and its not a bad trade. If he did that, its because he needed a change. He wasn't playing well here for years.

This is going to sound an awful lot like “cope” if DC keeps producing. Relax, man 

Edited 8 hours ago by Thorner

[mjd1001]

19 minutes ago, Thorner said:

This is going to sound an awful lot like “cope” if DC keeps producing. Relax, man 

If Cozens keeps producing, it still does not change the facts.

Tell the people I was responding to to 'relax'. They are the ones clutching about him scoring a couple points.  I said my peace about the deal in the 24 hours after it was done.  At this point I am not saying anything new about his performance except in response to others bringing it up.

Edited 7 hours ago by mjd1001

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

If Cozens keeps producing, it still does not change the facts.

Tell the people I was responding to to 'relax'. They are the ones clutching about him scoring a couple points.

You are going 180 the other way, though. He struggled here. A lot of that was our own doing. The environment we create, sucks. 

[_Q_]

Q’ng up a 10 game scoreless streak in 3…2…1…

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, Thorner said:

You are going 180 the other way, though. He struggled here. A lot of that was our own doing. The environment we create, sucks. 

Nope, not going the other way. 

Again, since the day after the trade only replying when someone else brings it up.  Besides, message boards are for discussion, back and forth...its not about just makign our point and demanding everyone accept it.  If someone disagrees with me, then can take my point about hockey and tell me their point of view. A large part of a functioning message board like this is going back and forth about opinions on hockey and players....not pointing out over and over that people 'don't get it' or telling them they are going to far with their argument.  

Edited 5 hours ago by mjd1001

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

Steve Bernier was traded to Buffalo at the 2008 deadline. In his first game with Buffalo, he scored 2g and 1a. People were freaking out that he was going to be the greatest thing since Betty White. He had 1g and 5a over his next 16 games with Buffalo and went to Vancouver in the offseason. 

[LGR4GM]

Cozens is shooting at 25% currently. If that keeps up, he'd be better than Sam Reinhart, which I doubt. 

11 hours ago, SDS said:

Bernier. 

This place can't spell Reinhart correctly.

[Stoner]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Steve Bernier was traded to Buffalo at the 2008 deadline. In his first game with Buffalo, he scored 2g and 1a. People were freaking out that he was going to be the greatest thing since Betty White. He had 1g and 5a over his next 16 games with Buffalo and went to Vancouver in the offseason. 

When people study recency bias, they should go directly to a sports message board, any message board, step right up.

Edited 7 hours ago by Stoner

[Second Line Center]

Incredible.  
 

One of my theories is these guys get extra juice from the arenas.  Ours is DEAD.  It’s been a morgue for years.  
 

Even watching these games - Dunleavy puts me to sleep.  It could be the players I guess.  
 

Whole environment sucks.  
 

 

[inkman]

51 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Steve Bernier was traded to Buffalo at the 2008 deadline. In his first game with Buffalo, he scored 2g and 1a. People were freaking out that he was going to be the greatest thing since Betty White. He had 1g and 5a over his next 16 games with Buffalo and went to Vancouver in the offseason. 

I remember all of that vividly.  Is that the name you originally typed?