K-9 Posted March 14 Report Posted March 14 36 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Shocked but good news I don't believe it for a second. Trump also said he would resume sharing intelligence with Ukraine as well. That hasn't happened.
LGR4GM Posted March 14 Author Report Posted March 14 (edited) 49 minutes ago, K-9 said: I don't believe it for a second. Trump also said he would resume sharing intelligence with Ukraine as well. That hasn't happened. Good point, I should not believe that anything Trump says is a flat out lie. He's a conman. Edited March 14 by LGR4GM
Demoted Posted March 14 Report Posted March 14 3 hours ago, Hank said: It might be too late, Trump already allowed Russian economy to rebound and hurt Ukraines ability to fight off the invasion from the aggressor. China meanwhile building new Warships and awaiting to see what comes of this. If Trump folds and allows Putin to take most of Ukraines land, they will most likely invade Taiwan.
K-9 Posted March 14 Report Posted March 14 35 minutes ago, Demoted said: It might be too late, Trump already allowed Russian economy to rebound and hurt Ukraines ability to fight off the invasion from the aggressor. China meanwhile building new Warships and awaiting to see what comes of this. If Trump folds and allows Putin to take most of Ukraines land, they will most likely invade Taiwan. At this point, the best I can hope for is that our fighting men and women aren’t ordered to fight on the side of Russia if a peace deal is not reached because Europe, especially Poland and other NATO border countries bordering Ukraine, won’t hesitate to join Ukraine as allies and they will march across Ukraine before Russia can claim any more territory. Unlike Americans Europe, especially Eastern Europe, knows their history and has learned from it.
Demoted Posted March 15 Report Posted March 15 (edited) Elon getting fooled by his own misinformation highway, not knowing this is not a real news outlet. The Babylon Bee is like The Onion in terms of news they even say on the website "Fake news you can trust, delivered straight to your inbox!" Trump has also gone full fascist by saying any news outlet that makes him look bad is illegal. "And I believe that CNN and MSDNC, who literally write 97.6% bad about me are political arms of the Democrat Party and in my opinion they're really corrupt and they're illegal, what they do is illegal," Trump said. This was while he was speaking to the justice department today. (This is basically what Trump is doing with Right Wing media, he gave his own structure away) Like I said, Let these guys cook. They will bring themselves down over time, though I never thought they would screw up this fast. Trump's age seems to be catching up with him seeing he is now starting to lose his temper in more public places. Edited March 15 by Demoted
LTS Posted March 15 Report Posted March 15 16 hours ago, K-9 said: At this point, the best I can hope for is that our fighting men and women aren’t ordered to fight on the side of Russia if a peace deal is not reached because Europe, especially Poland and other NATO border countries bordering Ukraine, won’t hesitate to join Ukraine as allies and they will march across Ukraine before Russia can claim any more territory. Unlike Americans Europe, especially Eastern Europe, knows their history and has learned from it. What's the probability you realistically assign to that thought or are you going for extremism here? 13 hours ago, Demoted said: Elon getting fooled by his own misinformation highway, not knowing this is not a real news outlet. The Babylon Bee is like The Onion in terms of news they even say on the website "Fake news you can trust, delivered straight to your inbox!" Trump has also gone full fascist by saying any news outlet that makes him look bad is illegal. "And I believe that CNN and MSDNC, who literally write 97.6% bad about me are political arms of the Democrat Party and in my opinion they're really corrupt and they're illegal, what they do is illegal," Trump said. This was while he was speaking to the justice department today. (This is basically what Trump is doing with Right Wing media, he gave his own structure away) Like I said, Let these guys cook. They will bring themselves down over time, though I never thought they would screw up this fast. Trump's age seems to be catching up with him seeing he is now starting to lose his temper in more public places. Hell no. Shut these people up and fast. The more they are allowed to go full lunatic with their hands on the wheel of the United States the greater chance they escalate to a point of no return and we, and the rest of the world, are stuck with the consequences. They are the kind of people who don't go down without taking everyone else down with them.
K-9 Posted March 15 Report Posted March 15 1 hour ago, LTS said: What's the probability you realistically assign to that thought or are you going for extremism here? Hell no. Shut these people up and fast. The more they are allowed to go full lunatic with their hands on the wheel of the United States the greater chance they escalate to a point of no return and we, and the rest of the world, are stuck with the consequences. They are the kind of people who don't go down without taking everyone else down with them. I don’t assign any probability. And I don’t think it’s an extreme idea given Trump’s affiliation with Russian oligarchs and Russian mafia since 1987 as well as his pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine rhetoric.
LTS Posted March 15 Report Posted March 15 4 hours ago, K-9 said: I don’t assign any probability. And I don’t think it’s an extreme idea given Trump’s affiliation with Russian oligarchs and Russian mafia since 1987 as well as his pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine rhetoric. It would certainly be my last moments as a US resident and ultimately a citizen.
K-9 Posted March 15 Report Posted March 15 5 minutes ago, LTS said: It would certainly be my last moments as a US resident and ultimately a citizen. I understand that completely but we’re gonna need decent people who understand what’s at stake and believe America is still worth fighting for. Like my dad and uncles and countless others of the greatest generation, decent people need to stay and take a stand. The idea of America is worth the sacrifice. I hope you’ll stick around if it gets to that point.
LTS Posted March 16 Report Posted March 16 21 hours ago, K-9 said: I understand that completely but we’re gonna need decent people who understand what’s at stake and believe America is still worth fighting for. Like my dad and uncles and countless others of the greatest generation, decent people need to stay and take a stand. The idea of America is worth the sacrifice. I hope you’ll stick around if it gets to that point. I understand where you are coming from. But I'm only in this country because I was born here. I don't necessarily believe it's the best place to live, for me. I often find myself at odds with the US "way of life". Now granted, the idea might be that people should be able to choose their own way of life, but that brings me to a phrase in your response. I don't know what the "Idea of America" is specifically, and it probably varies from person to person, but I don't think we've ever seen it in this country. I think people believe there was a time when it existed but I'm not so sure. I'd say when the US was formed was the best chance, but equality has yet to exist in this country for those who are its citizens. It allowed ownership of people as property straightaway and then 2/3's of a person, etc. Look at the arguments in our threads today and its clear that people are still not equal in the eyes of the government. The divide between in our socio-economics is fueling our ever increasing partisan politics. The strength of a middle class strengthens the centrist view, but we're not heading in that direction. The strength of education fuels a successful society, but we're not heading in that direction. I think there's a concept of "America" that people hold to and in some ways they believe it's either lost or achievable, but I'm not sold on the idea. The United States is coming up it's 250th year of existence. It's a short time to determine its the "best way of life" versus just "a way of life". Anyway, I could probably go on and on but let's just say, I hope like hell we don't lower the already low bar of when we put the lives of people on the line just to support corporate American greed. I respect anyone who is willing to put themselves first in the defense of an idea and their country, but their willingness to serve should be treated with the utmost respect and never abused as it has so many times in the past with the pretense of "Defending Democracy".
K-9 Posted March 16 Report Posted March 16 31 minutes ago, LTS said: I understand where you are coming from. But I'm only in this country because I was born here. I don't necessarily believe it's the best place to live, for me. I often find myself at odds with the US "way of life". Now granted, the idea might be that people should be able to choose their own way of life, but that brings me to a phrase in your response. I don't know what the "Idea of America" is specifically, and it probably varies from person to person, but I don't think we've ever seen it in this country. I think people believe there was a time when it existed but I'm not so sure. I'd say when the US was formed was the best chance, but equality has yet to exist in this country for those who are its citizens. It allowed ownership of people as property straightaway and then 2/3's of a person, etc. Look at the arguments in our threads today and its clear that people are still not equal in the eyes of the government. The divide between in our socio-economics is fueling our ever increasing partisan politics. The strength of a middle class strengthens the centrist view, but we're not heading in that direction. The strength of education fuels a successful society, but we're not heading in that direction. I think there's a concept of "America" that people hold to and in some ways they believe it's either lost or achievable, but I'm not sold on the idea. The United States is coming up it's 250th year of existence. It's a short time to determine its the "best way of life" versus just "a way of life". Anyway, I could probably go on and on but let's just say, I hope like hell we don't lower the already low bar of when we put the lives of people on the line just to support corporate American greed. I respect anyone who is willing to put themselves first in the defense of an idea and their country, but their willingness to serve should be treated with the utmost respect and never abused as it has so many times in the past with the pretense of "Defending Democracy". I appreciate this thoughtful response. In short, my “idea of America” is what’s expressed in our founding documents and codified in our Constitution. Agree entirely on your views of the middle class. Have you ever asked yourself what created our middle class and what’s helping to erode and destroy it? It’s worth the research. Like you, I could go on but I’ll just say I’m with you in hoping it doesn’t get much worse before we turn things around again. Which this country, read “our citizenry”, has done on several occasions in the past. In the meantime, try to hang in there. 1
thewookie1 Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 Trump has utterly fumbled Ukraine but I also see the result as more or less inevitable regardless. Russia will get what they want or we'll have WWIII. Mind you, this isn't for a lack of effort or intelligence but rather the most basic of things; manpower. Ukraine can't hope to out recruit Russia and with North Korean troops joining the fray they are even further behind the 8-ball. However the bigger issue is actually due a specific quirk of Russians; they lack a desire to keep their soldiers alive. If Russia cared about their troops, we could hypothetically funnel supplies into Ukraine with the idea that on defense you will likely kill far more of the enemy than that you yourself lose and that with nigh-WWI style warfare the Russians would be forced to the table after terrible losses. The issue is they don't care, Russia could lose a couple million lives taking over a portion of Ukraine and it would not phase Putin the slightest.
SABRES 0311 Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 10 minutes ago, thewookie1 said: Trump has utterly fumbled Ukraine but I also see the result as more or less inevitable regardless. Russia will get what they want or we'll have WWIII. Mind you, this isn't for a lack of effort or intelligence but rather the most basic of things; manpower. Ukraine can't hope to out recruit Russia and with North Korean troops joining the fray they are even further behind the 8-ball. However the bigger issue is actually due a specific quirk of Russians; they lack a desire to keep their soldiers alive. If Russia cared about their troops, we could hypothetically funnel supplies into Ukraine with the idea that on defense you will likely kill far more of the enemy than that you yourself lose and that with nigh-WWI style warfare the Russians would be forced to the table after terrible losses. The issue is they don't care, Russia could lose a couple million lives taking over a portion of Ukraine and it would not phase Putin the slightest. From what I can tell all the money and weaponry the U.S. sent Ukraine hasn’t stopped Russian occupation. Additionally, Russia relied on conscripts and contract forces (Wagner) to gain what it took. Not exactly their A-Team, which they do have. My question to anyone who wants to answer is, how far are you willing to go? To be blunt are you willing to send U.S. forces en mass into Ukraine to engage in overt combat operations against Russia? If not, what makes you think more money and weapons will do anything different than what has already happened?
Hank Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 28 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: From what I can tell all the money and weaponry the U.S. sent Ukraine hasn’t stopped Russian occupation. Additionally, Russia relied on conscripts and contract forces (Wagner) to gain what it took. Not exactly their A-Team, which they do have. My question to anyone who wants to answer is, how far are you willing to go? To be blunt are you willing to send U.S. forces en mass into Ukraine to engage in overt combat operations against Russia? If not, what makes you think more money and weapons will do anything different than what has already happened? No. And, I don't.
LGR4GM Posted March 18 Author Report Posted March 18 4 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: From what I can tell all the money and weaponry the U.S. sent Ukraine hasn’t stopped Russian occupation. Additionally, Russia relied on conscripts and contract forces (Wagner) to gain what it took. Not exactly their A-Team, which they do have. My question to anyone who wants to answer is, how far are you willing to go? To be blunt are you willing to send U.S. forces en mass into Ukraine to engage in overt combat operations against Russia? If not, what makes you think more money and weapons will do anything different than what has already happened? What happens when Russia invades Poland?
SABRES 0311 Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: What happens when Russia invades Poland? That’s not the question. Not dealing in ifs, dealing with what is actually happening.
LGR4GM Posted March 18 Author Report Posted March 18 4 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: That’s not the question. Not dealing in ifs, dealing with what is actually happening. Russia has been fought to a standstill. Their economy is screwed up and the sanctions are working. Russia wants a ceasefire to rearm. They just want it on their terms. So you are dealing in what ifs. What if continuing to support Ukraine doesn't expel Russia from Ukraine? That's your question.
LGR4GM Posted March 18 Author Report Posted March 18 Tbf though, no I don't want US troops in Ukraine. I'm unsure if that answers your question fully.
SABRES 0311 Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 (edited) 47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Russia has been fought to a standstill. Their economy is screwed up and the sanctions are working. Russia wants a ceasefire to rearm. They just want it on their terms. So you are dealing in what ifs. What if continuing to support Ukraine doesn't expel Russia from Ukraine? That's your question. Russia hasn’t fought to a standstill. Russia has been using the B squad so as not to poke the bear too much. They hold eastern Ukraine and still hold Crimea. They want a DMZ and I’d be shocked if they gave any Ukrainian territory back without it and written agreements Ukraine won’t join NATO. Simple question. To what extent are people willing to support U.S. involvement? Edit: Take a look. Russia could roll over Ukraine if it wanted to. If they decided it’s their way or the highway how far are people willing to go. Or keep not answering. Whatever 😂 https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=ukraine&country2=russia Edited March 18 by SABRES 0311
LGR4GM Posted March 18 Author Report Posted March 18 (edited) 7 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: Russia hasn’t fought to a standstill. Russia has been using the B squad so as not to poke the bear too much. They hold eastern Ukraine and still hold Crimea. They want a DMZ and I’d be shocked if they gave any Ukrainian territory back without it and written agreements Ukraine won’t join NATO. Simple question. To what extent are people willing to support U.S. involvement? Edit: Take a look. Russia could roll over Ukraine if it wanted to. If they decided it’s their way or the highway how far are people willing to go. Or keep not answering. Whatever 😂 https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=ukraine&country2=russia If Russia could roll over Ukraine, they would have done it already. Since you added snark in your edit here's some back. If I wanted to read the Russian propaganda, I would listen to Republicans or Fox News. Trump and Tulsi Gabbard like to trade in Russian Propaganda, so I can just get it from them. I did answer. I said I do not want US troops in Ukraine. The US should continue to provide intelligence help, anti-air defense systems, artillery shells and 155mm units, and other forms of military equipment. I also think we should be willing to train and advise the Ukrainians. As far as the demilitarized zone, Russia's ***** dumb if that is what they want. Ukraine is far more mobilized and ready for war now than if Russia had used diplomacy. Putin was able to roll over the Crimea and thought he could roll over the rest of Ukraine. He clearly cannot and if he was going to use his "A" team why hasn't he used them at all in strategic areas? Also how big is his A team? we talking what? 10 battalions maybe? Where are there? The intelligence community believes Putin wants a ceasefire so he can consolidate gains, re-arm and re-train his forces, then he plans to push into the Balkan states. We are 3ish years away from a massive Russian invasion of the Balkans. I think this arsenal analysis of Russia is pretty solid: 8 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Tbf though, no I don't want US troops in Ukraine. I'm unsure if that answers your question fully. 7 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: Simple question. To what extent are people willing to support U.S. involvement? Edit: Take a look. Russia could roll over Ukraine if it wanted to. If they decided it’s their way or the highway how far are people willing to go. Or keep not answering. Whatever 😂 I did answer your question. Edited March 18 by LGR4GM spelling
SABRES 0311 Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 3 hours ago, LGR4GM said: If Russia could roll over Ukraine, they would have done it already. Since you added snark in your edit here's some back. If I wanted to read the Russian propaganda, I would listen to Republicans or Fox News. Trump and Tulsi Gabbard like to trade in Russian Propaganda, so I can just get it from them. I did answer. I said I do not want US troops in Ukraine. The US should continue to provide intelligence help, anti-air defense systems, artillery shells and 155mm units, and other forms of military equipment. I also think we should be willing to train and advise the Ukrainians. As far as the demilitarized zone, Russia's ***** dumb if that is what they want. Ukraine is far more mobilized and ready for war now than if Russia had used diplomacy. Putin was able to roll over the Crimea and thought he could roll over the rest of Ukraine. He clearly cannot and if he was going to use his "A" team why hasn't he used them at all in strategic areas? Also how big is his A team? we talking what? 10 battalions maybe? Where are there? The intelligence community believes Putin wants a ceasefire so he can consolidate gains, re-arm and re-train his forces, then he plans to push into the Balkan states. We are 3ish years away from a massive Russian invasion of the Balkans. I think this arsenal analysis of Russia is pretty solid: I did answer your question. So you think it’s propaganda to say Russia could roll over Ukraine? There’s this thing called NATO. It consists of a many countries who feel they need to band together to deter Russian aggression. You don’t do that for a country like Ukraine. Putin would love a ceasefire as they come out of winter. Consolidation is a part of every offensive.
Demoted Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 52 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: So you think it’s propaganda to say Russia could roll over Ukraine? There’s this thing called NATO. It consists of a many countries who feel they need to band together to deter Russian aggression. You don’t do that for a country like Ukraine. Putin would love a ceasefire as they come out of winter. Consolidation is a part of every offensive. Putin has ignored every ceasefire ever made against Russia. Why would you not do that for Ukraine? Putin wanted this to be over quick but it has dragged on and depleted his resources. NATO wanted this to drag on to help deplete Russian resources and put Russia's economy into the pits. It was working until Trump decided to take all the pressure off the aggressor country Russia and actually helped them regain ground both economically and in terms of the invasion.
SABRES 0311 Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 4 minutes ago, Demoted said: Putin has ignored every ceasefire ever made against Russia. Why would you not do that for Ukraine? Putin wanted this to be over quick but it has dragged on and depleted his resources. NATO wanted this to drag on to help deplete Russian resources and put Russia's economy into the pits. It was working until Trump decided to take all the pressure off the aggressor country Russia and actually helped them regain ground both economically and in terms of the invasion. Winters in war suck. Even with present day technology. Any side would take advantage of a post winter/pre spring pause. It helps assess forces, capabilities, and hardware. Being in favor of dragging the war on for any reason means to be in favor of sacrificing lives and infrastructure.
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