4 Nations Face-Off

[North Buffalo]

On 2/23/2025 at 11:53 AM, Ogelthorpe said:

The United States of America is not a democracy.  It is a constitutional republic. Maybe you should educate yourself

maybe you should... a constitutional republic is our form of democracy... ps so is Canada I love when uninformed people make this ignorant statement claiming it as knowledge... been rolling around magat circles for a while now to justify jan 6th grrr

[shrader]

Remember that “automated” message about a thread being closed because it is no longer contributing positively to the community? Yeah, we need that. 

[LTS]

4 hours ago, shrader said:

Remember that “automated” message about a thread being closed because it is no longer contributing positively to the community? Yeah, we need that. 

Just gotta hit those three dots at the top right and report the messages.  It might help draw attention.  I just skimmed right over this thread to clear it.

[Demoted]

On 2/23/2025 at 6:27 PM, Crusader1969 said:

If it wasn't for politics the tournament wouldn't have been what it was. 
 

That's just sad

[shrader]

4 hours ago, LTS said:

Just gotta hit those three dots at the top right and report the messages.  It might help draw attention.  I just skimmed right over this thread to clear it.

They’re not listening

[Crusader1969]

On 2/23/2025 at 8:09 PM, Sabres Fan in NS said:

I live in Halifax - the birthplace of Crosby, MacKinnon and Marchand (we don't brag too much about him .. 😉).  

I can assure you that no one here gives a fiddler's fart about 2010.  1972 was the height of the cold war, so that was a bit different, but similar to today in a way.

I love how people give the thumbs down on a post like this.  You are just telling it how it is.  

[Crusader1969]

On 2/24/2025 at 9:42 AM, mjd1001 said:

And while I was a little kid, I watched hockey a lot back then.  Even with that, I seem to think that Mario Lemieux in the middle-to-late 80's was just as much, if not more 'dangerous' than Gretzky was in the early 1980's.

I was always a fan of Gretzky over Lemieux, but when I am honest with myself, I think Lemieux and Hasek are the 2 most dominant NHL players I have ever seen.

I agree.   If Lemieux didn't have back issues and Cancer, I think he would be considered the best forward to ever play the game.   

[Crusader1969]

On 2/24/2025 at 10:40 AM, Jorcus said:

I just can't help but think how close to Rollerball this is all becoming. Many world leaders with corporate interests using a game that becomes unnecessary violent as a distraction for the masses and increases ratings. I was never down with using sports a proxy for nationalism. Although it generates interest it also generates useless animosity. I am at the point of questioning why anthems should be played at all if for the most part I have to sit through people butchering them night after night. If they went back to doing it on holidays or military appreciation nights I would be fine with that. Soon enough we will be standing for a corporate hymn while the world leaders burn down trees with flame throwers for party fun. Cool uniforms though. 

 

100% agree.  Not sure why the anthem needs to be played before a sporting event, unless the actual country is being represented 

[Ducky]

Chantel grew up in Winnipeg. Her father is from Lockport and grew up not far from where I live now in Lockport. She is married to the lead singer of Our Lady Peace. My two cents...didn't care for her rendition at all.

Henderson's goal will always be considered the biggest goal in hockey for people that are old enough to remember.

I'd say number 2 is Lemieux's goal in the 1987 Canada cup.

McJesus' goal isn't considered as high because it wasn't the best players in hockey in the tourney. No Russians, no Draisatl, no Ehlers, no Stutzle, Seider, Peterka, Pasta, Necas and the list goes on and on. It had serious meaning to it because of Trump.

 

Imagine, Trump has brought out the worst in Canadians (lots of other places as well) and we are booing a country's anthem? I was at the Sharks' game last night and some people were booing the anthem. Facking classless. I wouldn't even boo the Russian anthem and you don't want to know what I think of Putin. (I'd love to introduce him to a 180 Nosler partition Let's just leave it at that).You should boo the man, not the country. If the USA wasn't due south of us the ruskies would be in Edmonton in under a half a day for Christ's sake.

It was a great game and I think Binnington played well and stood on his head in OT and that really surprised me. Very evenly matched and lots of intensity. They should have it every 4 years two years after/before the Olympics. They have to find out a way to get the world's best players out there, not just 4 countries.

My two cents.

Edited yesterday at 01:01 AM by Ducky

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, Ducky said:

Chantel grew up in Winnipeg. Her father is from Lockport and grew up not far from where I live now in Lockport. She is married to the lead singer of Our Lady Peace. My two cents...didn't care for her rendition at all.

Henderson's goal will always be considered the biggest goal in hockey for people that are old enough to remember.

I'd say number 2 is Lemieux's goal in the 1987 Canada cup.

McJesus' goal isn't considered as high because it wasn't the best players in hockey in the tourney. No Russians, no Draisatl, no Ehlers, no Stutzle, Seider, Peterka, Pasta, Necas and the list goes on and on. It had serious meaning to it because of Trump.

 

Imagine, Trump has brought out the worst in Canadians (lots of other places as well) and we are booing a country's anthem? I was at the Sharks' game last night and some people were booing the anthem. Facking classless. I wouldn't even boo the Russian anthem and you don't want to know what I think of Putin. (I'd love to introduce him to a 180 Nosler partition Let's just leave it at that).You should boo the man, not the country. If the USA wasn't due south of us the ruskies would be in Edmonton in under a half a day for Christ's sake.

It was a great game and I think Binnington played well and stood on his head in OT and that really surprised me. Very evenly matched and lots of intensity. They should have it every 4 years two years after/before the Olympics. They have to find out a way to get the world's best players out there, not just 4 countries.

My two cents.

You do know about NATO?

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, Ducky said:

Chantel grew up in Winnipeg. Her father is from Lockport and grew up not far from where I live now in Lockport. She is married to the lead singer of Our Lady Peace. My two cents...didn't care for her rendition at all.

Henderson's goal will always be considered the biggest goal in hockey for people that are old enough to remember.

I'd say number 2 is Lemieux's goal in the 1987 Canada cup.

McJesus' goal isn't considered as high because it wasn't the best players in hockey in the tourney. No Russians, no Draisatl, no Ehlers, no Stutzle, Seider, Peterka, Pasta, Necas and the list goes on and on. It had serious meaning to it because of Trump.

 

Imagine, Trump has brought out the worst in Canadians (lots of other places as well) and we are booing a country's anthem? I was at the Sharks' game last night and some people were booing the anthem. Facking classless. I wouldn't even boo the Russian anthem and you don't want to know what I think of Putin. (I'd love to introduce him to a 180 Nosler partition Let's just leave it at that).You should boo the man, not the country. If the USA wasn't due south of us the ruskies would be in Edmonton in under a half a day for Christ's sake.

It was a great game and I think Binnington played well and stood on his head in OT and that really surprised me. Very evenly matched and lots of intensity. They should have it every 4 years two years after/before the Olympics. They have to find out a way to get the world's best players out there, not just 4 countries.

My two cents.

Agree. To me it’s the Lemieux / Sid goal that generally go back and forth for the 2 spot. Few really consider the McDavid goal on that level - for whatever reason this board seems to be a bit of an outlier 

And yea, Binnington was lights out when the needed it. Saved their bacon 

[Pimlach]

On 2/24/2025 at 7:52 PM, Thorner said:

I don’t really understand this website. I feel like I’d have to argue that water is a liquid

Ok. 2010 goal is irrelevant even though it quite literally always tops the Canada wide polls. I think that’s now 452 posters that have disagreed with me, claiming the “4 nations” goal is quite comparable to Henderson, and the goal from the Olympics quite meaningless. I do digress.

I agree with you 100%  

Most people in the US did not know what 4 Nations was before the tournament, or even after it.  When compared to all the sports entertainment going on it is not big here, even in most US hockey cities it was just a passing interest.  

It’s big in Canada because hockey is big in Canada.  Add the stupid Trump comments and it’s even a bigger deal to the more nationalistic type of Canadian person.   I’m fine with it.   Sports are a positive distraction from everyday life for many of us. 

[Crusader1969]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I agree with you 100%  

Most people in the US did not know what 4 Nations was before the tournament, or even after it.  When compared to all the sports entertainment going on it is not big here, even in most US hockey cities it was just a passing interest.  

It’s big in Canada because hockey is big in Canada.  Add the stupid Trump comments and it’s even a bigger deal to the more nationalistic type of Canadian person.   I’m fine with it.   Sports are a positive distraction from everyday life for many of us. 

More nationalistic type?  I have a feeling you are underestimating the impact of his comments on all Canadians.  
 

[Ducky]

16 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

You do know about NATO?

You mean the fact that Ukraine wants to join but Russia doesn't want them to because they won't be able to invade Ukraine any more or if the states wasn't due south of us, who is going to stop Russia from invading?

I'll answer that for you...nobody.

Edited 14 hours ago by Ducky

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, Ducky said:

You mean the fact that Ukraine wants to join but Russia doesn't want them to because they won't be able to invade Ukraine any more or if the states wasn't due south of us, who is going to stop Russia from invading?

I'll answer that for you...nobody.

Ok, I deleted it once but clearly I should have left it. 

Let's play this out. The United States withdraws from NATO and says "Hey Russia, we don't care if you invade Canada." Now you have contended that Russia would be in Edmonton within a day (after they started their invasion) but would they really? Russia would have to invade through Vancouver as to my knowledge there is not a large enough Canadian port on the Pacific coast outside of Vancouver to accommodate the supplies needed. Now right there we have problem #1, even if the US is like "whatever" they are now running an international boundary to invade but again, we are pretending the US doesn't exist/care. 

Okay, Russia invades through Vancouver. Now Russia has to immediately capture an air base otherwise they are screwed. They also will have been spotted long before they get to Vancouver because they will need a massive flotilla for the initial invasion, the Ocean is a massive deterrent and something Ukraine doesn't have in the way, yet the Russians haven't taken Ukraine. The chances of the Russians being able to hit Vancouver, overwhelm resistance and move on in even a day are about 0 unless the Canadians just refuse to fight, which I doubt. So your timeline is already broken. Let's say though that within a week they are able to secure Vancouver and prepare to move on. They would have to be running non-stop convoys to Russia to bring in material, they would need hundreds of thousands of tons of supplies every day. Now at this point, 1 week in, the British and the French are certainly reacting. Full scale mobilization is underway in Canada and the Canadians would logically fall back to the Rockies. 

Here we have the next massive issue for the Russians. They have to move over the Rocky mountains. They can't move south into the US, they can't move north because the passes through the North Shore Mts there are easily blocked. They have to move east along the Fraser river valley towards Kelwona. There's only 2 roads that run out of Vancouver along that valley and the Canadians would undoubtedly blow every bridge and set up every single possible delay they could because at this point they need time. Remember too, even if the Russians do not move, they have to feed and supply their army (they will get some of that from surrounding areas but still). This would be a battle of attrition, even if they develop air superiority, the mountains and hills make it ideal for delaying and otherwise ambushing an army. The advance would bog down. But lets say after a month, they get to Kamloops. They are 200+ miles away from their main supply base, they have only 2 roads they can use. It is now week 5 of the offensive. While the Canadian armed forces are certainly battered at this point, the great population reserves of Canada are still safely away in Ontario and Quebec. On top of that, the first British and French unites begin arriving in the east at Nova Scotia and then on to Toronto/Ottawa. 

The Russians have a choice at Kamloops, they can continue east towards Calgary, they can go north east towards Edmonton, or they could go North and try and skirt the mountains before turning back south. North is unrealistic even if they make Kamloops a forward supply base. At this point they still maintain air superiority but couldn't that far north. Kamloops to Edmonton is 500 miles but Kamloops to Calgary is only about 400 miles. The Russian's decide on Calgary and move to take Kelowna to increase their frontage, this takes a week. They now have 2 ways to get to Calgary but the most likely way is over the Mountain passes due east. This again forces them up over a set of mountains that include Glacier National Park. By now the Canadians, French, British, and others (probably Australians at a minimum) have had 6 weeks since the start of the war to mass troops in the east. In this scenario I giving Russia al the speed advantages I can, I think it would take them far longer to take Vancouver and Kamloops but we want this to progress. As the Russians start moving on Calgary, the question then becomes, where does this allied force fight? 

Delaying actions in and over the mountains would be aggressive. Every single moment of every day brings the forces in the east closer. On top of that Canada has seen a swelling of the military ranks from retired, reserve, and newly enlisted personnel. The Russians still have to ship all their war supplies across the Pacific. At Revelstoke on a fork of the Columbia river the Canadian armed forces with help from forward British and French units makes what could only be described as a determined stand. The mountains and the river are formidable and the air superiority by the Russians is finally challenged as Canada, British, and French fighter units are based out of Calgary. Couple that with the mountains hindering flight operations and the Russian advance grounds to almost a halt. It takes 1 week to reach Revelstoke, but it takes 5 weeks to clear it. We are now entering week 13 or 14 of the War. 

The Russians now have to cross the Columbia river again, this time it is a bit easier but still it takes them 2 weeks to clear Golden. The Canadians give resistance but are preparing something else. It is now week 16 and the Russians are forced to stop and bring up supplies along a road network that is now under air attack and has been heavily damaged by the retreating Canadians. The Russians decide to send a new army unit around the other way, the US again does not interfere as a mechanized column moves around the southern passes of the mountain and does fairly well until they reach Creston on the Kootenay river where they get bogged down. They push through, only to get bogged down on the Crownsnest Hwy where they are repeatedly ambushed and finally at Elko they run out of steam and are stopped by a combined Australian and Canadian unit. We are at week 18 of the war. 

The main thrust resumes from Golden but they will soon run into another problem. They must cross the river just south of Faeder lake and on the far bank mountains lined with entrenched artillery are waiting. The Russians do not have air superiority but do have parity, still, the bridges are blown and the way across the river contested. Finally they send units south on a service road but then are forced to build a road to connect it to the Kootenay hgwy. This takes 4 weeks to build and we are now at week 24 of the war. 

The units around Faeder lake withdraw in a night action, blowing every bridge and destroying the road as much as possible from their position all the way to the western side of Banff. Here, with nearly 12 weeks of prep time the Canadian, Australian, French, and British forces put all their eggs. They have defense in depth, falling back to the main bridge over the Bow River. The Russians have a supply train that stretches almost 90miles back to Golden and from Golden to Kamloops almost 250 miles back. The Canadians are dealing with a supply route back to Calgary of about 70miles. Here the Russian army is broken in the Battle of Banff. They never make it to the far side of the mountains and Edmonton is never invaded. It costs almost 500k Russian lives and nearly 150k Allied casualties. The fierce fighting last 30 months and results in a Russia defeat. A counter offensive from Banff and down from Edmonton and up around the Southern route, pushes the Russians back to Vancouver where the combined British and French fleets inflict enough disruptions that the Russian's withdraw their army.

Okay, I did this for fun and used google maps, so sorry if I get names or you feel the terrain isn't as big an issue. My point is that unless the US actively helped (gave bases, supplies, and routes) to the Russians, the Russians could not successfully invade Canada. It would be over 700 miles to Edmonton and over 600 to Calgary from Vancouver. The road system is not well developed in the sense of their being multiple routes and they move through some of the most hazardous and defensible land imaginable. Every day it would take the Russians to advance would add more and more to the Canadian armed forces and to the Allies who would come to their aid. With the ability to stage out of any number of cities along Lake Ontario and then move supplies overland to Winnipeg and on to Calgary, the Canadians would be at a great advantage. I think the Russians would break their army in the mountains with stretched supply lines, winter weather, and a motivated enemy that would resist in the extreme. The only other option would be to come in at Terrace after taking Prince Rupert and Port Edward at the mouth of the Skeena river and using that road to come at Edmonton more directly but that is over 800 miles and you'd have far lesser port facilities. 

Anyways, welcome to alternate history and this is not meant to be political but more of a fun thought exercise. 

 

 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Ok, I deleted it once but clearly I should have left it. 

Let's play this out. The United States withdraws from NATO and says "Hey Russia, we don't care if you invade Canada." Now you have contended that Russia would be in Edmonton within a day (after they started their invasion) but would they really? Russia would have to invade through Vancouver as to my knowledge there is not a large enough Canadian port on the Pacific coast outside of Vancouver to accommodate the supplies needed. Now right there we have problem #1, even if the US is like "whatever" they are now running an international boundary to invade but again, we are pretending the US doesn't exist/care. 

Okay, Russia invades through Vancouver. Now Russia has to immediately capture an air base otherwise they are screwed. They also will have been spotted long before they get to Vancouver because they will need a massive flotilla for the initial invasion, the Ocean is a massive deterrent and something Ukraine doesn't have in the way, yet the Russians haven't taken Ukraine. The chances of the Russians being able to hit Vancouver, overwhelm resistance and move on in even a day are about 0 unless the Canadians just refuse to fight, which I doubt. So your timeline is already broken. Let's say though that within a week they are able to secure Vancouver and prepare to move on. They would have to be running non-stop convoys to Russia to bring in material, they would need hundreds of thousands of tons of supplies every day. Now at this point, 1 week in, the British and the French are certainly reacting. Full scale mobilization is underway in Canada and the Canadians would logically fall back to the Rockies. 

Here we have the next massive issue for the Russians. They have to move over the Rocky mountains. They can't move south into the US, they can't move north because the passes through the North Shore Mts there are easily blocked. They have to move east along the Fraser river valley towards Kelwona. There's only 2 roads that run out of Vancouver along that valley and the Canadians would undoubtedly blow every bridge and set up every single possible delay they could because at this point they need time. Remember too, even if the Russians do not move, they have to feed and supply their army (they will get some of that from surrounding areas but still). This would be a battle of attrition, even if they develop air superiority, the mountains and hills make it ideal for delaying and otherwise ambushing an army. The advance would bog down. But lets say after a month, they get to Kamloops. They are 200+ miles away from their main supply base, they have only 2 roads they can use. It is now week 5 of the offensive. While the Canadian armed forces are certainly battered at this point, the great population reserves of Canada are still safely away in Ontario and Quebec. On top of that, the first British and French unites begin arriving in the east at Nova Scotia and then on to Toronto/Ottawa. 

The Russians have a choice at Kamloops, they can continue east towards Calgary, they can go north east towards Edmonton, or they could go North and try and skirt the mountains before turning back south. North is unrealistic even if they make Kamloops a forward supply base. At this point they still maintain air superiority but couldn't that far north. Kamloops to Edmonton is 500 miles but Kamloops to Calgary is only about 400 miles. The Russian's decide on Calgary and move to take Kelowna to increase their frontage, this takes a week. They now have 2 ways to get to Calgary but the most likely way is over the Mountain passes due east. This again forces them up over a set of mountains that include Glacier National Park. By now the Canadians, French, British, and others (probably Australians at a minimum) have had 6 weeks since the start of the war to mass troops in the east. In this scenario I giving Russia al the speed advantages I can, I think it would take them far longer to take Vancouver and Kamloops but we want this to progress. As the Russians start moving on Calgary, the question then becomes, where does this allied force fight? 

Delaying actions in and over the mountains would be aggressive. Every single moment of every day brings the forces in the east closer. On top of that Canada has seen a swelling of the military ranks from retired, reserve, and newly enlisted personnel. The Russians still have to ship all their war supplies across the Pacific. At Revelstoke on a fork of the Columbia river the Canadian armed forces with help from forward British and French units makes what could only be described as a determined stand. The mountains and the river are formidable and the air superiority by the Russians is finally challenged as Canada, British, and French fighter units are based out of Calgary. Couple that with the mountains hindering flight operations and the Russian advance grounds to almost a halt. It takes 1 week to reach Revelstoke, but it takes 5 weeks to clear it. We are now entering week 13 or 14 of the War. 

The Russians now have to cross the Columbia river again, this time it is a bit easier but still it takes them 2 weeks to clear Golden. The Canadians give resistance but are preparing something else. It is now week 16 and the Russians are forced to stop and bring up supplies along a road network that is now under air attack and has been heavily damaged by the retreating Canadians. The Russians decide to send a new army unit around the other way, the US again does not interfere as a mechanized column moves around the southern passes of the mountain and does fairly well until they reach Creston on the Kootenay river where they get bogged down. They push through, only to get bogged down on the Crownsnest Hwy where they are repeatedly ambushed and finally at Elko they run out of steam and are stopped by a combined Australian and Canadian unit. We are at week 18 of the war. 

The main thrust resumes from Golden but they will soon run into another problem. They must cross the river just south of Faeder lake and on the far bank mountains lined with entrenched artillery are waiting. The Russians do not have air superiority but do have parity, still, the bridges are blown and the way across the river contested. Finally they send units south on a service road but then are forced to build a road to connect it to the Kootenay hgwy. This takes 4 weeks to build and we are now at week 24 of the war. 

The units around Faeder lake withdraw in a night action, blowing every bridge and destroying the road as much as possible from their position all the way to the western side of Banff. Here, with nearly 12 weeks of prep time the Canadian, Australian, French, and British forces put all their eggs. They have defense in depth, falling back to the main bridge over the Bow River. The Russians have a supply train that stretches almost 90miles back to Golden and from Golden to Kamloops almost 250 miles back. The Canadians are dealing with a supply route back to Calgary of about 70miles. Here the Russian army is broken in the Battle of Banff. They never make it to the far side of the mountains and Edmonton is never invaded. It costs almost 500k Russian lives and nearly 150k Allied casualties. The fierce fighting last 30 months and results in a Russia defeat. A counter offensive from Banff and down from Edmonton and up around the Southern route, pushes the Russians back to Vancouver where the combined British and French fleets inflict enough disruptions that the Russian's withdraw their army.

Okay, I did this for fun and used google maps, so sorry if I get names or you feel the terrain isn't as big an issue. My point is that unless the US actively helped (gave bases, supplies, and routes) to the Russians, the Russians could not successfully invade Canada. It would be over 700 miles to Edmonton and over 600 to Calgary from Vancouver. The road system is not well developed in the sense of their being multiple routes and they move through some of the most hazardous and defensible land imaginable. Every day it would take the Russians to advance would add more and more to the Canadian armed forces and to the Allies who would come to their aid. With the ability to stage out of any number of cities along Lake Ontario and then move supplies overland to Winnipeg and on to Calgary, the Canadians would be at a great advantage. I think the Russians would break their army in the mountains with stretched supply lines, winter weather, and a motivated enemy that would resist in the extreme. The only other option would be to come in at Terrace after taking Prince Rupert and Port Edward at the mouth of the Skeena river and using that road to come at Edmonton more directly but that is over 800 miles and you'd have far lesser port facilities. 

Anyways, welcome to alternate history and this is not meant to be political but more of a fun thought exercise. 

 

 

I get that you are  just going through a fun exercise, but you forget that Russia would have 60+ submarines in the three oceans that surround Canada.  Without US naval and air support they could do a lot of damage to Canada’s population centers very quickly and force a surrender. Probably in a few days, and they can do it without putting a Russian boot on the ground.  Long range bombers flying over the arctic would also be available to them.  The Russians only have one  aircraft carrier and it is thought to be non operational, but they don’t need it or conventional ground troops to force a surrender.  Fortunately, we see from Ukraine that their readiness, tactics, and logistics are not at our past perceived Cold War levels.  
 

With brings me to the Arctic Ocean which boarders 100,000 miles of Canadian coastline.   It’s an absolutely critical spot.  More so because of Chinas progress as a world power, but also because of Russia.  Thats where the importance of Greenland comes in.   But this is a hockey forum.  

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Pimlach

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I get that you are  just going through a fun exercise, but you forget that Russia would have 60+ submarines in the three oceans that surround Canada.  Without US naval and air support they could do a lot of damage to Canada’s population centers very quickly and force a surrender. Probably in a few days, and they can do it without putting a Russian boot on the ground.  Long range bombers flying over the arctic would also be available to them.  The Russians only have one  aircraft carrier and it is thought to be non operational, but they don’t need it or conventional ground troops to force a surrender.  Fortunately, we see from Ukraine that their readiness, tactics, and logistics are not at our past perceived Cold War levels.  
 

With brings me to the Arctic Ocean which boarders 100,000 miles of Canadian coastline.   It’s an absolutely critical spot.  More so because of Chinas progress as a world power, but also because of Russia.  Thats where the importance of Greenland comes in.   But this is a hockey forum.  

 

Russia isn't nuking Canada. 

They clearly need ground troops as none of their bombers forced Ukraine to surrender. 

[Crusader1969]

3 hours ago, Ducky said:

You mean the fact that Ukraine wants to join but Russia doesn't want them to because they won't be able to invade Ukraine any more or if the states wasn't due south of us, who is going to stop Russia from invading?

I'll answer that for you...nobody.

Not sure that makes sense.   We (Canada) are member of NATO, so an attack on us would be an attack on All NATO countries. 
 

this thread is sure off of the 4 nations.   Maybe the title should be changed? 

[Pimlach]

9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Russia isn't nuking Canada. 

They clearly need ground troops as none of their bombers forced Ukraine to surrender. 

Thankfully nothing like this is happening nd hopefully never will.  They can do non nuke damage but the war in Ukraine  shows Russian power is not what it used to be, except for the nukes. 

[DarthEbriate]

What the….

—Well look at you… LGR 4 GENERAL?

++Someone must have told them about my little maneuver at the Battle of the 4 Nations Face-Off thread. 

[LGR4GM]

We call it the Darth Maneuver 

[ska-T Palmtown]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Russia isn't nuking Canada. 

They clearly need ground troops as none of their bombers forced Ukraine to surrender. 

This. It is hilarious how poorly the Russian military has performed right next door to their own country to think they wouldn't lose half their force crossing the ocean to broken down boats is silly.

Not for nothing, I don't Canada's air force would be a push over, either.

A+ for the fan fic, LGR!

[mjd1001]

12 minutes ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

This. It is hilarious how poorly the Russian military has performed right next door to their own country to think they wouldn't lose half their force crossing the ocean to broken down boats is silly.

Not for nothing, I don't Canada's air force would be a push over, either.

A+ for the fan fic, LGR!

Its pretty small, but I'm pretty sure they have a good number of F-18 super hornets...nothing like Russia has seen in combat.

[JoeSchmoe]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Ok, I deleted it once but clearly I should have left it. 

Let's play this out. The United States withdraws from NATO and says "Hey Russia, we don't care if you invade Canada." Now you have contended that Russia would be in Edmonton within a day (after they started their invasion) but would they really? Russia would have to invade through Vancouver as to my knowledge there is not a large enough Canadian port on the Pacific coast outside of Vancouver to accommodate the supplies needed. Now right there we have problem #1, even if the US is like "whatever" they are now running an international boundary to invade but again, we are pretending the US doesn't exist/care. 

Okay, Russia invades through Vancouver. Now Russia has to immediately capture an air base otherwise they are screwed. They also will have been spotted long before they get to Vancouver because they will need a massive flotilla for the initial invasion, the Ocean is a massive deterrent and something Ukraine doesn't have in the way, yet the Russians haven't taken Ukraine. The chances of the Russians being able to hit Vancouver, overwhelm resistance and move on in even a day are about 0 unless the Canadians just refuse to fight, which I doubt. So your timeline is already broken. Let's say though that within a week they are able to secure Vancouver and prepare to move on. They would have to be running non-stop convoys to Russia to bring in material, they would need hundreds of thousands of tons of supplies every day. Now at this point, 1 week in, the British and the French are certainly reacting. Full scale mobilization is underway in Canada and the Canadians would logically fall back to the Rockies. 

Here we have the next massive issue for the Russians. They have to move over the Rocky mountains. They can't move south into the US, they can't move north because the passes through the North Shore Mts there are easily blocked. They have to move east along the Fraser river valley towards Kelwona. There's only 2 roads that run out of Vancouver along that valley and the Canadians would undoubtedly blow every bridge and set up every single possible delay they could because at this point they need time. Remember too, even if the Russians do not move, they have to feed and supply their army (they will get some of that from surrounding areas but still). This would be a battle of attrition, even if they develop air superiority, the mountains and hills make it ideal for delaying and otherwise ambushing an army. The advance would bog down. But lets say after a month, they get to Kamloops. They are 200+ miles away from their main supply base, they have only 2 roads they can use. It is now week 5 of the offensive. While the Canadian armed forces are certainly battered at this point, the great population reserves of Canada are still safely away in Ontario and Quebec. On top of that, the first British and French unites begin arriving in the east at Nova Scotia and then on to Toronto/Ottawa. 

The Russians have a choice at Kamloops, they can continue east towards Calgary, they can go north east towards Edmonton, or they could go North and try and skirt the mountains before turning back south. North is unrealistic even if they make Kamloops a forward supply base. At this point they still maintain air superiority but couldn't that far north. Kamloops to Edmonton is 500 miles but Kamloops to Calgary is only about 400 miles. The Russian's decide on Calgary and move to take Kelowna to increase their frontage, this takes a week. They now have 2 ways to get to Calgary but the most likely way is over the Mountain passes due east. This again forces them up over a set of mountains that include Glacier National Park. By now the Canadians, French, British, and others (probably Australians at a minimum) have had 6 weeks since the start of the war to mass troops in the east. In this scenario I giving Russia al the speed advantages I can, I think it would take them far longer to take Vancouver and Kamloops but we want this to progress. As the Russians start moving on Calgary, the question then becomes, where does this allied force fight? 

Delaying actions in and over the mountains would be aggressive. Every single moment of every day brings the forces in the east closer. On top of that Canada has seen a swelling of the military ranks from retired, reserve, and newly enlisted personnel. The Russians still have to ship all their war supplies across the Pacific. At Revelstoke on a fork of the Columbia river the Canadian armed forces with help from forward British and French units makes what could only be described as a determined stand. The mountains and the river are formidable and the air superiority by the Russians is finally challenged as Canada, British, and French fighter units are based out of Calgary. Couple that with the mountains hindering flight operations and the Russian advance grounds to almost a halt. It takes 1 week to reach Revelstoke, but it takes 5 weeks to clear it. We are now entering week 13 or 14 of the War. 

The Russians now have to cross the Columbia river again, this time it is a bit easier but still it takes them 2 weeks to clear Golden. The Canadians give resistance but are preparing something else. It is now week 16 and the Russians are forced to stop and bring up supplies along a road network that is now under air attack and has been heavily damaged by the retreating Canadians. The Russians decide to send a new army unit around the other way, the US again does not interfere as a mechanized column moves around the southern passes of the mountain and does fairly well until they reach Creston on the Kootenay river where they get bogged down. They push through, only to get bogged down on the Crownsnest Hwy where they are repeatedly ambushed and finally at Elko they run out of steam and are stopped by a combined Australian and Canadian unit. We are at week 18 of the war. 

The main thrust resumes from Golden but they will soon run into another problem. They must cross the river just south of Faeder lake and on the far bank mountains lined with entrenched artillery are waiting. The Russians do not have air superiority but do have parity, still, the bridges are blown and the way across the river contested. Finally they send units south on a service road but then are forced to build a road to connect it to the Kootenay hgwy. This takes 4 weeks to build and we are now at week 24 of the war. 

The units around Faeder lake withdraw in a night action, blowing every bridge and destroying the road as much as possible from their position all the way to the western side of Banff. Here, with nearly 12 weeks of prep time the Canadian, Australian, French, and British forces put all their eggs. They have defense in depth, falling back to the main bridge over the Bow River. The Russians have a supply train that stretches almost 90miles back to Golden and from Golden to Kamloops almost 250 miles back. The Canadians are dealing with a supply route back to Calgary of about 70miles. Here the Russian army is broken in the Battle of Banff. They never make it to the far side of the mountains and Edmonton is never invaded. It costs almost 500k Russian lives and nearly 150k Allied casualties. The fierce fighting last 30 months and results in a Russia defeat. A counter offensive from Banff and down from Edmonton and up around the Southern route, pushes the Russians back to Vancouver where the combined British and French fleets inflict enough disruptions that the Russian's withdraw their army.

Okay, I did this for fun and used google maps, so sorry if I get names or you feel the terrain isn't as big an issue. My point is that unless the US actively helped (gave bases, supplies, and routes) to the Russians, the Russians could not successfully invade Canada. It would be over 700 miles to Edmonton and over 600 to Calgary from Vancouver. The road system is not well developed in the sense of their being multiple routes and they move through some of the most hazardous and defensible land imaginable. Every day it would take the Russians to advance would add more and more to the Canadian armed forces and to the Allies who would come to their aid. With the ability to stage out of any number of cities along Lake Ontario and then move supplies overland to Winnipeg and on to Calgary, the Canadians would be at a great advantage. I think the Russians would break their army in the mountains with stretched supply lines, winter weather, and a motivated enemy that would resist in the extreme. The only other option would be to come in at Terrace after taking Prince Rupert and Port Edward at the mouth of the Skeena river and using that road to come at Edmonton more directly but that is over 800 miles and you'd have far lesser port facilities. 

Anyways, welcome to alternate history and this is not meant to be political but more of a fun thought exercise. 

 

 

Moe: take this seat right next to the tap
Homer: But that's Barney's seat! Are you trying to make me the new Barney?
Moe: Hey ever bar needs a world class drunk
Lenny: Yeah someone who makes our alcoholism seem less raging

 

LGR with the Barney post... Making the amount of time we've all wasted on here seem "less raging". Thank you for your service!

[shrader]

@SDS, why is this still here?