From Lucic to Noesen - The Sabre lack of backbone exposed again

[Archie Lee]

56 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Huge overreaction by the media and fanbase imo.

First, nobody knew what happened until the replay, who was it, was it clean?   The players on the ice didn't know either, how do you expect them to respond?  Even the refs needed replay.

Challenging someone to a fight after a big hit is absolute garbage, it needs to be removed from the game.   You don't like the hit?  Hit them back, it's allowed!   A finesse/smaller player pretending to fight isn't showing a backbone.   I cringe everytime Krebs steps in and gets ragdolled, it's a joke.    The team as a group elevating their physicality is the proper response.   Get his number and put a target on them the rest of the game, tell your physical players to go out of their way to hit him every chance they get.

Lastly, they're at the bottom of the standings yet again in a season where playoffs were the target.   Their "lack of repsonse" in this situation isn't the problem here.

I largely agree with this. I think this is a case where the general lack of response that this team has to these situations, going back many years, has caused this singular case to be magnified. But this is what happens when you overlay a team that has been bad as long as the Sabres have been with them also having a reputation for being soft. It all comes back to the team the GM has built and to the reality that he is not equipped to fix it.  

 

[SABRES 0311]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lindy cancelled practice today.  
 

 

Can you (or anyone) explain this to me? 

[inkman]

4 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Can you (or anyone) explain this to me? 

Lindy mentioned in his post game press conference that he may cancel todays practice. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmoe said:

It's idiotic to think the prospect of having to fight would deter a dirty hit.

Even if we had prime Bob Probert on the ice what's the difference? You can turtle or back away. 

I take it you never played?  Having to fight will absolutely deter a dirty hit.  

 

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Most folks conveniently overlook the hits the Sabres were dishing all game. But those hits were strategic and part of the flow of play. Not the bench clearing brawl many wanted. 

We also ignore that Lindy considered retaliation but that went out the window when the Sabres not only failed to score in a 5-minute power play, but gave to shorty to cut the lead to one.

But like most things on Sabrespace, facts be damned when there's a good narrative to pounded into the ground.

Why is everything that you disagree with a “narrative”?  

I have not read one word to even suggest a bench clearing brawl.  That is your narrative. 

Lindy blew it by not immediately sending out Gilbert.  He told us why he added him to the roster and then he fails to use him.  His defense of his decision in his post game interview was incoherent.  At least he took  the players off the hook by telling us they were ready to respond.  I’ll give him credit for standing by his incorrect decision.   

If your captain is on the ice bleeding and possibly concussed you put Gilbert out.  Why is that hard to understand?  So Gilbert gets a 2, a 5, and a 10.  Big deal, they play 4 on  4 and then they get a power play.  

Was Chris Drury more valuable than Tage Thompson?  Are two points that valuable to a team that is last in their conference with no legitimate shot at the playoffs?   

If the Sabres did the same thing to Hughes do you think the Devils would have not responded and been happy with a 5 minute power play?  

There is no defense for his decision to hold back his players response.   If this spills over into next season it is completely because of Lindy’s poor decision yesterday.  

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Pimlach

[JP51]

Fight, Don't fight... whatever, in the end... mott of the 31 other teams would have responded... we as is our culture of kumbaya figure skaters do not... I go back to what Campbell said about the Umberger hit when people we congratulating him in the community after that game.. his response was yeah, well you dont have a target on your back... and he ends up fighting Umberger etc the next season. Bottom line, you can jump in and defend immediately addressing as most teams would and that is fine, preferred and appropriate... in the end... its thru the subsequent play and physicality that the other person or team will be made to understand that we will target your stars with hopefully clean but big hits etc... that makes them think twice like it did Campbell... with the Buffalo Ice Capades there is no fear of that... so players like Benson and Peterka etc... are fair game.. as for the I didnt see it crowd... I am not so sure, looks to me like they were looking right at it... especially Power... but that is par for the course.. 6'5 230 and plays smaller than Benson...  Sorry, agree, disagree... but I hate this team for that attitude and its one of the reasons most fans are disgusted... to not respond is cowardly and shows exactly what this team is about... and how "close" they are... you see your friend get jacked up your gonna do something....    for all of those hoping that some day we make the playoffs... lol... these fake hockey players will leave the rink running for their Mommies after the first period. 

Edited 2 hours ago by JP51

[mjd1001]

I don't have too much data to support thigs, so just throwing this out there...

Maybe Pegula really really wants a skilled team and doesn't want the tougher/enforcer type guys and he set the direction.

-When he speaks about him being a fan, he brings up the French connection (nothing wrong with that) and the players he liked....not much ever mentioned about guys like Shoenfeld, Ramsay, Foligno...etc.

-During his time as owner, through MANY different GM's, very few tough/physical players were drafted. Maybe the last one that fits that mold was Marcus Foligno, but he was drafted Before Pegula.

-Every year they have a chance to bring in guys like that, and again, through multiple GM's, they pass on them almost every year.

-A lot of their coaching hires under Pegula are guys who don't seem to demand the 'though' part of the game but rather focused on skill. Not all of them, but certainly some.

Again, no idea if it is a direction from the Top, but the lack of 'toughness' and 'accountability' seems to have started the moment he became owner and got his input in building the organization.  The sign that all this started was the Miller-Lucic hit...was was just 2 months into the first year he owned the team, if i'm not mistaken.

[JoeSchmoe]

22 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I take it you never played?  Having to fight will absolutely deter a dirty hit.  

I played at a low level, but I have a good friend that played higher levels where goonery was much more prevalent than today's NHL. He was a middleweight and fought only when necessary. He'll tell you that even the biggest goons didn't stop him from doing what he was going to do.

Back to yesterday... if a 5 minute major that was likely to cost his team the game and the fine / suspension doesn't deter him... having to tie up in a lousy circa 2025 NHL fight certainly won't.

Edited 2 hours ago by JoeSchmoe

[ska-T Palmtown]

4 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Again, no idea if it is a direction from the Top, but the lack of 'toughness' and 'accountability' seems to have started the moment he became owner and got his input in building the organization.  The sign that all this started was the Miller-Lucic hit...was was just 2 months into the first year he owned the team, if i'm not mistaken.

I mean, there is absolutely zero correlation there. Was the rest of the league afraid of the previous owner and two scant months into TP's reign, the rest of the NHL collectively "sensed" it was open season? Nearly every player on the roster was a holdover from the previous owner. TP is probably guilty of a lot and I think he deserves all the $hit he gets for the state the franchise is in, but it would be pretty hard to show that the Lucic hit was anything other than coincidence. 

Some players are just dirt bags. Even if we had peak Rob Ray, I think that scumbag still hits Tage the way he did.  Getting in a silly little hockey fight is not going to deter the real goons from doing it. It happens over and over and over ... The real "losers" and spineless whatevers are the players that level dirty (or borderline dirty) hits on star players when that player is not looking or otherwise defenseless. 

[inkman]

16 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I take it you never played?  Having to fight will absolutely deter a dirty hit.  

Are you referring to the player immediately following the hit?  I haven’t seen anything to suggest that is the offending player has to eat a couple of fists after the hit, he’s less likely to do the same thing next time he has the chance.  I think dirty players are dirty regardless of repercussions.  Maybe the players who don’t engage in that type of behavior regularly, may be dissuaded with some fisticuffs.  But your Marchands, Noesons, Kaletas of the world will still do their thing regardless of any on ice retribution. 

[Dreams Burn Down]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lindy cancelled practice today.  
 

 

Is Terry bringing them a cheese tray?

[inkman]

1 minute ago, Dreams Burn Down said:

Is Terry bringing them a cheese tray?

He cancelled it because of 2 games in 3 days.  Not whatever agenda Harrington is alluding to. 

[mjd1001]

4 minutes ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

I mean, there is absolutely zero correlation there. Was the rest of the league afraid of the previous owner and two scant months into TP's reign, the rest of the NHL collectively "sensed" it was open season? Nearly every player on the roster was a holdover from the previous owner. TP is probably guilty of a lot and I think he deserves all the $hit he gets for the state the franchise is in, but it would be pretty hard to show that the Lucic hit was anything other than coincidence. 

Some players are just dirt bags. Even if we had peak Rob Ray, I think that scumbag still hits Tage the way he did.  Getting in a silly little hockey fight is not going to deter the real goons from doing it. It happens over and over and over ... The real "losers" and spineless whatevers are the players that level dirty (or borderline dirty) hits on star players when that player is not looking or otherwise defenseless. 

I'm not saying the Lucic incident was done to the Sabres because of the owner. I'm saying its possible the owner wanted to move away from the type of players who can/would respond to that.  The Lucic incident is just one example...look at the roster construction and the way the franchise went from when he became and owner.  Fighting went down across the league over the last 15 years, but the Sabres being a team willing and able to respond seems to have gone down even more than the rest of the league, and it seems the time that happened is about the exact time Pegula took over.

[Dreams Burn Down]

2 minutes ago, inkman said:

He cancelled it because of 2 games in 3 days.  Not whatever agenda Harrington is alluding to. 

That's on me for taking what Harrington says at face value.  After all these years, I should know better.

[Pimlach]

4 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I don't have too much data to support thigs, so just throwing this out there...

Maybe Pegula really really wants a skilled team and doesn't want the tougher/enforcer type guys and he set the direction.

-When he speaks about him being a fan, he brings up the French connection (nothing wrong with that) and the players he liked....not much ever mentioned about guys like Shoenfeld, Ramsay, Foligno...etc.

-During his time as owner, through MANY different GM's, very few tough/physical players were drafted. Maybe the last one that fits that mold was Marcus Foligno, but he was drafted Before Pegula.

-Every year they have a chance to bring in guys like that, and again, through multiple GM's, they pass on them almost every year.

-A lot of their coaching hires under Pegula are guys who don't seem to demand the 'though' part of the game but rather focused on skill. Not all of them, but certainly some.

Again, no idea if it is a direction from the Top, but the lack of 'toughness' and 'accountability' seems to have started the moment he became owner and got his input in building the organization.  The sign that all this started was the Miller-Lucic hit...was was just 2 months into the first year he owned the team, if i'm not mistaken.

If Pegula set the teams direction to that fine level of detail then forget ever winning. I don't think he does or that he can be bothered with those details.  If he is truly a hockey guy then he understands the role of fighting.  

The lack of toughness and accountably started with the Lucic hit on Miller.  It was 2011, Pegula's first season and Ruff was the coach.  

In 2024 Lindy was supposed to bring in NHL experience, accountability, and a team that is harder to play against.   

Under Lindy they are were all but eliminated by Christmas, they are entrenched in last place in their conference, several young players have regressed, they consistently play worse as the game goes on, they freeze up and blow big leads all the time, and now apparently he decides when the players can fight or not.  

Someone pointed out his teams record defending a third period lead.  It is the worst in the league, ironically Granato's was among the top.  

I like Lindy and appreciate his history with the team but yesterday was the end for me.  He does not look like a coach that will fix this team.   In his defense he  didn't want to get swept by the Devils and he knows he has to defend his record after the season.  So given that the 2 points mean a lot to him.  Some of us think the teams reputation and culture mean more.  

[Pimlach]

15 minutes ago, inkman said:

Are you referring to the player immediately following the hit?  I haven’t seen anything to suggest that is the offending player has to eat a couple of fists after the hit, he’s less likely to do the same thing next time he has the chance.  I think dirty players are dirty regardless of repercussions.  Maybe the players who don’t engage in that type of behavior regularly, may be dissuaded with some fisticuffs.  But your Marchands, Noesons, Kaletas of the world will still do their thing regardless of any on ice retribution. 

Dirty players have to be kept in check.  You won't stop them from being a pain to play against, you probably won't stop them from being dirty, but you have to contain it and address it.  Noesem was running our players every chance he had.  He should have been addressed after the hit on Zucker. 

Lindy commented on the chippy play an the strange calls the refs made and didn't make.  He had the last change and he had Gilbert on the bench, but he did not use him.   I think he felt that the Devils were too skilled to risk playing Gilbert. 

[Crusader1969]

Who were the guys on the bench that wanted retribution?  

[CallawaySabres]

4 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Who were the guys on the bench that wanted retribution?  

My guess would be Benson and Benson....maybe Tuch.

[Pimlach]

25 minutes ago, inkman said:

He cancelled it because of 2 games in 3 days.  Not whatever agenda Harrington is alluding to. 

Agree.  But if his sole intention was to rest them he would have cancelled it yesterday after another hard fought (see the pun) win.  He sarcastically alluded to no practice to the media.  

Harrington says it was cancelled 52 minutes prior, so I think the players were there and talking about it.  I think the hot kitchen means maybe not all the players were on board with the decisions made.  

The Columbus game should be interesting.  

[Pimlach]

5 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Who were the guys on the bench that wanted retribution?  

My guess is Gilbert and Dahlin.  

[Weave]

8 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Who were the guys on the bench that wanted retribution?  

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The Lucic attack on Miller and the Sabres lack of response to it was the first step down the road to where the Sabres are now.  That is at the bottom of the standings for 14 years with no real plan to improve.

 

 

The Lucic hit om Miller occurred in 2011. That was 14 freaking years ago! Extrapolating our descent from that hit is not only odd, but weirdly nonsensical. The Sabres have been a mediocre and irrelevant franchise for nearly a generation, not because of a particular hit, but because of an incompetent owner who has hired a less than mediocre staff to run the hockey operations. 

The Sabres won a game against a superior opponent yesterday. I'm happy about the victory while many are dissatisfied with it. Now we have arrived at a point where after a victory there has been a perplexing freak out. This makes no sense to me. The frustration over this franchise has spilled over to affect many people's logical thinking.  

[Crusader1969]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

My guess is Gilbert and Dahlin.  

100% Dahlin 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

Yep, and honestly the hit didn't look that bad to me even on replay.   Tage put himself in a bad spot, he exposed himself leading with his head... not excusing the hit, but it there was no elbow thrown and he didn't leave his feet.   Still dirty but have seen much much worse.

Definitely seen worse hits but still, who had the benefit of the replay?  No one.  Since when do hockey players need that much evidence to bring justice?  

Noesen had taken other runs and cheap shots. This was building up for awhile.  

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Other than just winning, of course.

IMO, moral victories are for losers.

Wouldn’t it be great if the Sabres actually did make this season interesting and make a run for the last WC spot, and we were tied with NJ but had the HtoH and took it from them. Hey, a fella can dream, can’t he?

Is this an echo of what Zucker said?

Count me out.

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Did they?

They'd just stepped on the ice on for a line change. The puck was gone across the ice toward the other blue line.

Samuelsson said flat out he didn't see it. Zucker's head flips back and forth like "what just happened there?" Power made a half-hearted overture toward Seigenthaler like "was that you that did that bad thing?"

No one was even looking at Noesen.

Plausible deniability, I guess?

I don't know why any fan of this team would extend a benefit of the doubt to this cast of characters.

I just watched and re-watched the play. And I'm not buying it. The two D are on the ice, engaged in the play, they are seeing it develop. They are tracking the puck, sure. But don't tell me that they don't pick up on what happened in their peripheral (or in Power's case, his direct line of vision). There's an immediate groan of protest from the home crowd (good job, home crowd). The linesmen start sprinting in. And those 2 towering jamokes just look around, baffled -- they're apparently waiting for a plenary inquiry. Just fu*k that.

Not a totally rational take, I will admit. It's a bit emotional. I wish more Sabre players were.

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Which team needed the 2 points more?  

Lindy’s second term has been a failure.  The team is worse than last year.  At a minimum, he was supposed to help improve the culture.   His post game interview was a disjointed rant.   He actually was sarcastic about giving the boys Monday off.  

It’s sad to see actually.  

I like the vibe of this and your other posts on this topic.

[That Aud Smell]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Noesen had taken other runs and cheap shots. This was building up for awhile.  

This is hugely important factor in how I feel about the incident with Thompson.

Sabres hung on to win. But throughout the game they just got smacked around, physically dominated. No response.

And again: But, yea, 2 points. That's the response.

To that, I say: No it isn't.