Is Jiri Kulich really a center?

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

^ This. 
In half a season on Eichel’s wing, Kane alone should have had 4 more tap-in goals on empty nets because of elite passes and goalies forced to respect Eichel’s shot.

In addition, Reinhart was exceptional at tipping in shots around the net. The Sabres are starting to add shooters such as Tage, Quinn, Tuch, Kulich, Peterka etc. Right now, Zucker and to a lesser extent, Benson, are our best net presence when shots are directed toward the net. If we still would have had Reinhart, the conversion rate on rebounds and tips would be much higher. This confused organization squandered elite talent that was already on our roster. Utterly stupid and sinful that has squashed this franchise. 

[mjd1001]

58 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I understand why you wouldn't consider Eichel a world-class playmaker here but I disagree with that assessment. He simply didn't have the players to convert his passes that he does in Vegas. (I believe @Thorner made that point.) Eichel had elite attributes when it came to skating, shooting and passing. In Buffalo, what always stood out to me were his passes to players who couldn't convert them. He was a special talent that was way beyond the players he played with in Buffalo. And that frustrated him and was one of the factors why he wanted out of the dismal situation that he felt he was stuck in. 

I'm not saying he didn't make the players around him better, but to me that's different than being a playmaker. 

A playmaker to me, as I described above for how we are having this discussion, is somebody who is going to look to set up his teammates first. 

Eichel made his teammates better because of his overall skill, not because he was a playmaker-set up my linemates first guy. He drew attention due to his overall ability and that opened things up fro them. And I'm not saying he was bad at passing. He was good but he wasn't always a.. get to the net and distribute type of guy.

When he played for the Sabres, his game was he carried the puck into the zone, he controled the zone entries. But then, as we had many discussions on this forum years ago, he would cross the blue line with speed, then SLOW down and look to pass the puck to his wingers to set up the offense in the zone.  When he did get the puck later deeper into the zone (even strength or on the PP) after the offense was set up, he would get to the slot and he would take more shots than he would pass. I'm pretty sure he had a good number more goals than he did primary assists.  To me that is the sign of a good overall player, but not what we are discussing as a 'playmaker'.

I understand all of your points but again... Maybe it's semantics... When I'm talking about a playmaker I'm talking about somebody like Adam Oates... Or Backstrom in Washington... Guys whose first thought was get the puck to my wingers at all costs in a great position before they would even consider shooting. 

Look at how Dubois is playing with Washington this year. When you watch him play, he sometimes skates the puck through or across the slot, not even looking at the net but looking to see who he can pass to. THAT is a playmaker. Or of course McKinnon...he shoots and scores a lot when on the rush, but when they have things set in the offensive zone, his game is to draw defenders toward him and then find the open linemate. That is another good example of a playmaker. (Jack Hughes and Barkov are 2 others I think of with this style of play also)

Eichel may have made his wingers better because of his pure talent... But his mentality was that not that is he distributing playmaker. He was more balanced. Sorry.

Edited Sunday at 12:50 AM by mjd1001

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm not saying he didn't make the players around him better, but to me that's different than being a playmaker. 

A playmaker to me in the way we define it in the NHL is somebody who is going to look to set up his teammates first. 

Michael made his teammates better because of his overall skill. He drew attention. And I'm not saying he was bad at passing. He was good but he wasn't always a.. get to the net and distribute type of guy 

I understand all of your points but again... Maybe it's semantics... When I'm talking about a playmaker I'm talking about somebody like Adam Oates... Or backstrom in Washington... Guys whose first thought was get the puck to my wingers at all costs in a great position before they would even consider shooting.

Michael may have made his wingers better because of his pure talent... But his mentality was that not that is he distributing playmaker. He was more balanced. Sorry.

We may be disagreeing around the margins and nibbling around the edges. The point that I and others are making is that his passing skills were not as recognized as his skating and shooting skills here because collectively the players he played with weren't good enough to convert them. In Vegas, he is surrounded by better players. And that has made a difference with respect to his passing ability which are converted into assists with greater frequency. I don't want to over state something where in general we are more in agreement. 

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

We may be disagreeing around the margins and nibbling around the edges. The point that I and others are making is that his passing skills were not as recognized as his skating and shooting skills here because collectively the players he played with weren't good enough to convert them. In Vegas, he is surrounded by better players. And that has made a difference with respect to his passing ability which are converted into assists with greater frequency. I don't want to over state something where in general we are more in agreement. 

Yeah, I think we are disagreeing about different things. Again, I'm not saying he isn't a very good passer or he isn't a great player. He is.  I was just confronted when I said he wasn't a playmaker when he was with the Sabres, and I stand by him.  I'm talking STYLE with the SABRES, not overall ability and not what he is now.

Maybe due to coaching, teammates, experience, he HAS become more of a playmaker in Vegas than he was here.

Edited Sunday at 12:49 AM by mjd1001

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, inkman said:

I’ve watched him fairly extensively with the Amerks and obviously been watching him in Buffalo.  I have to say, I don’t think he plays like a center.  Certainly not in the traditional sense.  He’s a shoot first player, his shot is his main asset and he just seems to move more like a winger.  Straight line speed, built compact and powerful, not long and lanky for playmaking.  Maybe it’s just me…

I thought this same thing when we drafted him and saw him as a potential wing and a true sniper. Shifting Thompson to the wing and leaving him at center is changing my mind though. One of the things most of us said at the beginning of the year was KA needed to spend the money and get us one more top 6 scoring winger (and a D partner for Power and maybe a veteran back up goalie) and with his play Thompson is now that top 6 winger. It does seem to be working and if he starts to struggle at center or hits a rookie wall we move Thompson back but so far it looks good.

Kulich is without a doubt this season's bright spot. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I understand why you wouldn't consider Eichel a world-class playmaker here but I disagree with that assessment. He simply didn't have the players to convert his passes that he does in Vegas. (I believe @Thorner made that point.) Eichel had elite attributes when it came to skating, shooting and passing. In Buffalo, what always stood out to me were his passes to players who couldn't convert them. He was a special talent that was way beyond the players he played with in Buffalo. And that frustrated him and was one of the factors why he wanted out of the dismal situation that he felt he was stuck in. 

Remember how low it took him to get his first assist his rookie year? Was maddening 

line mates failing to cash is exactly right 

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm not saying he didn't make the players around him better, but to me that's different than being a playmaker. 

A playmaker to me, as I described above for how we are having this discussion, is somebody who is going to look to set up his teammates first. 

Eichel made his teammates better because of his overall skill, not because he was a playmaker-set up my linemates first guy. He drew attention due to his overall ability and that opened things up fro them. And I'm not saying he was bad at passing. He was good but he wasn't always a.. get to the net and distribute type of guy.

When he played for the Sabres, his game was he carried the puck into the zone, he controled the zone entries. But then, as we had many discussions on this forum years ago, he would cross the blue line with speed, then SLOW down and look to pass the puck to his wingers to set up the offense in the zone.  When he did get the puck later deeper into the zone (even strength or on the PP) after the offense was set up, he would get to the slot and he would take more shots than he would pass. I'm pretty sure he had a good number more goals than he did primary assists.  To me that is the sign of a good overall player, but not what we are discussing as a 'playmaker'.

I understand all of your points but again... Maybe it's semantics... When I'm talking about a playmaker I'm talking about somebody like Adam Oates... Or Backstrom in Washington... Guys whose first thought was get the puck to my wingers at all costs in a great position before they would even consider shooting. 

Look at how Dubois is playing with Washington this year. When you watch him play, he sometimes skates the puck through or across the slot, not even looking at the net but looking to see who he can pass to. THAT is a playmaker. Or of course McKinnon...he shoots and scores a lot when on the rush, but when they have things set in the offensive zone, his game is to draw defenders toward him and then find the open linemate. That is another good example of a playmaker. (Jack Hughes and Barkov are 2 others I think of with this style of play also)

Eichel may have made his wingers better because of his pure talent... But his mentality was that not that is he distributing playmaker. He was more balanced. Sorry.

You are doing way, way too much.

he’s an elite playmaker

Edited Sunday at 01:42 AM by Thorner

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Yeah, I think we are disagreeing about different things. Again, I'm not saying he isn't a very good passer or he isn't a great player. He is.  I was just confronted when I said he wasn't a playmaker when he was with the Sabres, and I stand by him.  I'm talking STYLE with the SABRES, not overall ability and not what he is now.

Maybe due to coaching, teammates, experience, he HAS become more of a playmaker in Vegas than he was here.

Just because he had to play the role of playmaker LESS here (but still the most) because he had to also be the one shooting as no one would covert his passes, doesn’t mean he *wasn’t a great playmaker.*. You are conflating role and ability.

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I can't even remember when they had a good playmaker. Reinhart maybe?  Vanek had good vision and involved his teammates but he was more of a shoot-first guy. Eichel I guess? No one really stands out on this team in recent memory. Is Tuch a good playmaker from the wing and that is one of the reasons why Thompson is their best goal scorer because he plays with Tuch?  I'm really at a loss here for thinking of anyone this team has, or has had, that is a legit good playmaker.

Besides - I was responding to this. You can’t remember when they had a good playmaker. It’s Eichel. He was a good playmaker 

with all due respect if what Eichel did here isn’t considered “good playmaker” you have a very weird definition of playmaker 

the entire offence was filtered through him. He quarterbacked the power play. A very good power play some years. Led the team in assists per game 5 of his 6 seasons played here - every year but his rookie.  

McDavid at times is shoot first. If the definition of playmaker needs to be guys who are exclusively pass first.. it’s really going to deplete the options. Can’t say Briere 

Hodgson? 

Edited Sunday at 01:59 AM by Thorner

[GoPuckYourself]

You can go around the league and say this about many centers in the league, this position seems to be evolving and I believe if Tage Thompson can play the position then Juri Kulich should have no issues although my hope is 1 of Noah Oslund or Konsta Helenius becomes a legit supertar because I like Kulich or Thompson on line 2, I just don't feel Thompson is a 1st line center as he's a great shooter but the rest of his game needs some serious work imo.

Edited Sunday at 01:50 AM by GoPuckYourself

[Pimlach]

Is Kulich a center?   He played wing in the AHL, but in Buffalo his has worked his way up to the top 6, and as a C.  

That means what I’ve saying since preseason is true.  The Sabres did not have a legit 1C and 2C on the roster.  At least not what a top tier team would have in those positions.  

Kulich is playing damn good hockey and he can play center or wing so I’m happy with him. How he evolves is to be seen.  

PS - I’m still in the camp that Tage is not a center.  That doesn’t prohibit him from taking the center position upon zone entry, which fulfills the Granato theory that some here cling to.  But Tage cannot consistently handle the defensive and puck handling aspects of a true 1C/2C, especially against other teams top lines.  

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Thorner said:

Remember how low it took him to get his first assist his rookie year? Was maddening 

line mates failing to cash is exactly right 

You are doing way, way too much.

he’s an elite playmaker

Is now.

With the Sabres, wasn't always the case, as per my previous post.

If you still insist on arguing he IS one now, then I obviously didn't do enough to explain my point of view in my previous post.

[spndnchz]

10 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Its not always about do you look to pass first or shoot first.  its about the ability to make that decision correctly. Knowing at any given time if you taking the shot is better than your winger(s).

Kulich might be a very good center who doesn't look like a playmaker.  If at any given time when he has the puck on his stick, he he has a better chance of scoring than a winger would (because he has a better shot or is in better position)...then make the correct decision.

That is one of the reasons Cozens isn't a good Center. Its not that Cozens shoots too much or not, its that he doesn't make the decision on when shooting is better or passing is better. With Cozens, the decisions are like flipping a coin.

A good center isn't one who passes more than he shoots. Its one who can make the decision of when to pass vs shoot.  If that means the correct decision is he shoots more and has more goals than assists, so be it. That would be a good center.

Its not as simple as goal to assist ratio.....instead its about making that correct decision in the offensive end, whatever that decision is...and maybe even more so your defensive zone play or transitions through the neutral zone.

 

Good god. Stop writing novels 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Is Kulich a center?   He played wing in the AHL, but in Buffalo his has worked his way up to the top 6, and as a C.  

That means what I’ve saying since preseason is true.  The Sabres did not have a legit 1C and 2C on the roster.  At least not what a top tier team would have in those positions.  

Kulich is playing damn good hockey and he can play center or wing so I’m happy with him. How he evolves is to be seen.  

PS - I’m still in the camp that Tage is not a center.  That doesn’t prohibit him from taking the center position upon zone entry, which fulfills the Granato theory that some here cling to.  But Tage cannot consistently handle the defensive and puck handling aspects of a true 1C/2C, especially against other teams top lines.  

Ya exactly. and we haven't had a real 1C since Eichel left. People have already forgotten that Thompson was made into a center because there was no one else. Cozens has been pushed and rushed since day 1. The team does not address top line needs, they just wait for prospects to develop and that's why we blow it and remain on the outside.

It pisses me off because I look at Ottawa and think that should be the Sabres in 3rd and pushing for 2nd not them. 

[North Buffalo]

16 hours ago, inkman said:

I’ve watched him fairly extensively with the Amerks and obviously been watching him in Buffalo.  I have to say, I don’t think he plays like a center.  Certainly not in the traditional sense.  He’s a shoot first player, his shot is his main asset and he just seems to move more like a winger.  Straight line speed, built compact and powerful, not long and lanky for playmaking.  Maybe it’s just me…

I have seen him make great passes, yes he has an incredible shot, pretty good in the corners, good face off guy... is he a prototypical set up guy... maybe not but may be why he and TT have chemistry... both can pass and as TT has gotten healthier Ive seen him got more into the corners... both are willing to set up the other... less one on one bs like cozens... and Kulich hustles back on D... Ill take Kulich at center over Cozens any day

[Jorcus]

12 hours ago, Thorner said:

Remember how low it took him to get his first assist his rookie year? Was maddening 

line mates failing to cash is exactly right 

You are doing way, way too much.

he’s an elite playmaker

 

Yes, the fact he had no one to convert his passes led to the Skinner trade and the following overpayment for a contract. Whoever Skinners agent was should be in the sports agents hall of fame for putting a gun to our head for that one. 

[LTS]

6 hours ago, spndnchz said:

Good god. Stop writing novels 

Really? This is a disappointing response from a mod. We should encourage posters to not only share their opinions but support them.

If a post is too long, just skip it.

[Stoner]

7 hours ago, spndnchz said:

Good god. Stop writing novels 

You need to quit. Literally.

Awful moderation.

[Stoner]

43 minutes ago, LTS said:

Really? This is a disappointing response from a mod. We should encourage posters to not only share their opinions but support them.

If a post is too long, just skip it.

This is the mod who closes threads, deletes threads and bans people for made up reasons. What do you expect?

[Archie Lee]

7 hours ago, spndnchz said:

Good god. Stop writing novels 

Man do I disagree with this take. I don’t always agree with @mjd1001, but I find their posts to be thoughtful and often more interesting than what you would find in the sports pages. I like the short-form stuff too. Read what you like and skip what you don’t. 

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, spndnchz said:

Good god. Stop writing novels 

I like @mjd1001 ‘s posts.   Some posts are long because he makes an effort to back up his position.  

He is a polite and respectful person that should get respect in return.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

I think people here are confusing playmakers with guys who have good playmaking skills.

Guys like Adam Oates and Kuznetsov are pure playmakers.  Guys who focus almost primarily on creating for others.  The Sabres don’t have anyone like this on the team and only Östlund may qualify.  

Then there are guys with an all around skill set and do a good job of creating for linemates.  Alex Tuch is such a player.  JJP seems to be moving in that direction as well, but his shooting is his best skill.  JJP has 40 pts ytd including 26 assists which leads all Sabres forwards.  Benson, I know has the requisite passing skills, but he is still figuring out the NHL.  McLeod does most of what we want a center to do, but his passing skills are limited.  
 

As to the original question, I’d like my centers to play an all-around game, be good in the faceoff circle and play 200 ft.  We don’t have anyone that fits that description.  

The best thing about Kulich in the middle is his willingness to play 200 feet and his skills, especially shooting, allow him to convert opportunities.  

While I’m a Kulich fan,  I’d love for the Sabres to somehow acquire a pure making center (Zegras) or an all-around center (Pettersson) to pair with Thompson on a top line.  Moving guys like McLeod and Kulich down the lineup.  

 

[DarthEbriate]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya exactly. and we haven't had a real 1C since Eichel left. People have already forgotten that Thompson was made into a center because there was no one else. Cozens has been pushed and rushed since day 1. The team does not address top line needs, they just wait for prospects to develop and that's why we blow it and remain on the outside.

It pisses me off because I look at Ottawa and think that should be the Sabres in 3rd and pushing for 2nd not them. 

We've even forgotten that in that initial breakout season for TNT as a center, he didn't win the job out of camp. Mitts had earned the opening night 1C, but then got slashed in game 1 vs. MTL and missed a bunch of time. It could be Mitts was the last playmaking center on the team, but nowhere near Eichel's ability.

Edited Sunday at 04:49 PM by DarthEbriate

[MISabresFan]

The coach is responsible for getting the best out of his players.  So playing Kulich as a center or wing is up to the coach.  Right now I do nont have faith in this staff making these decisions.  At the 40 game mark worst record in the last 3 years.

Think about it,  this staff could ruin the future of these young players they worked so hard to draft/acquire.  

Edited Sunday at 05:26 PM by MISabresFan

[Doohicksie]

21 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Kulich and Tage have good chemistry but both should be wingers with a good playmaker in the middle.

I think they're both "kinda" centers, so it works well.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The sad part is Kulich is probably the best player of the current lot of Sabres "centers."

TNT has been moved to RW and Ruff wants to make it permanent. 

Cozens has been a disaster all season and like TNT might be best playing on the wing.

McLeod has had good moments and bad.  He is ok defensively and solid in the faceoff circle, but he is not a top 6 center.

Krebs is the same player he's been for the last few years.  He chips in some offense now and again and he has stepped up his physicality and his faceoff %.  All in all an adequate 4th line center.  

Lafferty - has been pure unadulterated garbage, but at least he skates fast. 

So those are your choices Sabres fans besides Kulich.  No wonder Ruff is playing Kulich on his top line.  

Edited Sunday at 06:17 PM by GASabresIUFAN

[Flashsabre]

48 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The sad part is Kulich is probably the best player of the current lot of Sabres "centers."

TNT has been moved to RW and Ruff wants to make it permanent. 

Cozens has been a disaster all season and like TNT might be best playing on the wing.

McLeod has had good moments and bad.  He is ok defensively and solid in the faceoff circle, but he is not a top 6 center.

Krebs is the same player he's been for the last few years.  He chips in some offense now and again and he has stepped up his physicality and his faceoff %.  All in all an adequate 4th line center.  

Lafferty - has been pure unadulterated garbage, but at least he skates fast. 

So those are your choices Sabres fans besides Kulich.  No wonder Ruff is playing Kulich on his top line.  

The biggest thing you need in a quality centre is someone who has great hockey sense. Who can read the play, anticipate and create plays and distribute the puck to wingers.

Cozens is terrible in each of these categories. He is a winger that can use his speed and snipe. But when he has to think and distribute it is a disaster.