GDT: Buffalo Sabres @ CalGARY Flames, 9 pm ET, 23 January 2025, TV SN1, MSG-B, Radio WGR AM 55

[inkman]

2 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

The team needs a culture change. The little play within the play that is emblematic of the Sabres occurred with just under 4 minutes to go. The Sabres are down 1 and on the PP.  The puck is in Calgary’s end and squirts up the wall to Wolf’s right. Thompson and Pelletier have a brief puck battle. Thompson chooses the wrong side of the puck and makes no attempt to utilize his 7” and 40lb size advantage and is easily outmuscled for the puck and Pelletier clears it down the ice.  Again and again we lose these small battles that make a difference in games. 

I don’t know the answer. I don’t want a tear down. There is no player that I wouldn’t consider dealing in a hockey trade, but moving any youngish established player (Dahlin, Thompson, Tuch, etc) for futures would be beyond crazy. 

Ruff is not the answer. The mistakes we saw from Dahlin, Thompson, and Power tonight, were the kind of mistakes that we did see from Eichel and Reinhart when they were here. Every player makes mistakes, but we do not seem to be able to bring in the right coach to establish that such mistakes are not acceptable. Early in Cassidy’s time in Vegas, he called out Eichel for poor efforts. 

Adams can’t return. A new GM has to get a chance to establish a new culture with new coaches and some strategic roster moves. If Adams is back then there is no reason to expect anything but a minor variation on what we have seen this season. 

No coach is going to change these tiger stripes. They are who they are.  A woefully flawed group who wilt at the first sign of pressure.  They don’t work hard enough on the ice to produce regular wins.  They say all the right things but rarely do them.  

[Thorner]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

A perfect example of how a too young team loses a winnable game. 

Boy was the PP a sloppy affair. Just horrible ,

Exactly. It’s youth. We are too young - and we are young by choice. We are bad on purpose.

- - - 

It’s not insane we are in last. It’s insane we have at least SEVEN POINTS LESS than *every* other team in the conference but 1.

truly the worst season I can remember the sabres putting to record. The fact the GM is still employed is mind boggling when you consider the owner isn’t going to fire himself. These are absurd, absurd results. You have to give someone else a try. 

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

The team needs a culture change. The little play within the play that is emblematic of the Sabres occurred with just under 4 minutes to go. The Sabres are down 1 and on the PP.  The puck is in Calgary’s end and squirts up the wall to Wolf’s right. Thompson and Pelletier have a brief puck battle. Thompson chooses the wrong side of the puck and makes no attempt to utilize his 7” and 40lb size advantage and is easily outmuscled for the puck and Pelletier clears it down the ice.  Again and again we lose these small battles that make a difference in games. 

I don’t know the answer. I don’t want a tear down. There is no player that I wouldn’t consider dealing in a hockey trade, but moving any youngish established player (Dahlin, Thompson, Tuch, etc) for futures would be beyond crazy. 

Ruff is not the answer. The mistakes we saw from Dahlin, Thompson, and Power tonight, were the kind of mistakes that we did see from Eichel and Reinhart when they were here. Every player makes mistakes, but we do not seem to be able to bring in the right coach to establish that such mistakes are not acceptable. Early in Cassidy’s time in Vegas, he called out Eichel for poor efforts. 

Adams can’t return. A new GM has to get a chance to establish a new culture with new coaches and some strategic roster moves. If Adams is back then there is no reason to expect anything but a minor variation on what we have seen this season. 

I don’t like to toot my own horn when I can avoid it (ok, who am I kidding), but, I was screaming this at the board 3 full years ago:

On 12/9/2021 at 9:33 AM, Thorner said:

Whether the plan itself is good, is what's up for debate, and a bit more of an interesting discussion, until a larger sample size of results presents itself.

I'd add, re: your point about "losing culture", that for me it's less about the players psyches being damaged by that, and more about training the players to get into a mode where "not winning" is ok. Which is indeed the hypothetical being presented, right? That they are being told, "don't worry, expectations are low this year"? That's a slippery slope when it comes to instilling a mindset, and culture. And even if the players are ok with results not mattering now, how long does that last for? 

To me, as I've mentioned before, one "down" year like this within the context of the plan seems to make sense*. A second year like this next year...does anyone think that would be ok? Work out ok? Do people expect more for next year or is it going to be "this season was never about winning anyways" after a month, again? 

*To an extent - we know Adams wanted better for in net. Which brings me to my only other disagreement - the breakdown above seeking to, in step by step fashion, alleviate the blame from Adams for the goaltending situation is incorrect, full stop. It can be argued that it was better to not have good goaltending (not that I would) because the aim is a high pick, but if the goal was to have better GT, just because Adams "tried" doesn't make the results of the position acceptable. His job is to fill positions competently, not "try" to do so.

The bar, to be better than what we have, is so, so low. Just because a few specific examples are given of specific goalies who were acquired for a price arguably too high for us, doesn't come close to proving there weren't plenty of options available to upgrade the goaltending. Without knowing all of the options, the position needs to be judged on results - it's the most fair. 

I told everyone exactly what was going to happen. Adams rode in on a purported (bogus - told you) mandate to fix the culture and in so doing cemented the sabres culture as “team that doesn’t care about winning” 

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Ok, so this is weird..... i was watching the game and shut it off and fell asleep after the end of the 2nd. I dreamt that we lost 5-2. That also included the empty netter.... So the real bad news is that i dreamt the Bills lose and Mahomes gets beat in the SB. 😵

[JP51]

1 hour ago, HumanSlinky39 said:

My youngest loves hockey. She watches many games with me. She has 2 Sabres jerseys. The guilt I feel is often overwhelming. 

LOL hey you know what... its a game, I love she is interested in it... some of my best memories with my Dad is us going to the rink at 6am for practice... he took me to my first game when I was 5... that happened to be the game Schoenfeld took Cashman thru the boards and started fighting... we were in the Oranges right over the zamboni door looking down... I remember after the game saying to my Dad... Dad that was fun can we do it again tomorrow...!!! He just laughed... I was hooked at that point... 🙂 

 

 

 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Stoner said:

Your scenarios never talk about where the Sabres ended up after the trade. Did they make a good trade that helped turn the franchise around? That seems at least as plausible as Rasmus Dahlin going somewhere and winning multiple Cups.

It seems more plausible that trading Dahlin will enhance his career (the Cups are hard to predict), and still not result in a trade that helps turn the franchise around. 

Cases in point: 

An injured Eichel got us Tuch, Krebs, Östlund, and Greenway (via trade of a #2 pick).  Would you make that trade again?  

Reinhart got us Levi and Kulich.  Would you make that trade again?  

ROR got us Tage Thompson, Ryan Johnson, and a big pile of veteran poop (Berglund, Sobotka, and a pick that was flipped for Colin Miller).  Would you make that trade again?  

What if Dahlin loses his love for the game?   Here is direct copy of ROR's big crime against Terry Pegula's version of hockey heaven.

As he and his fellow Sabres teammates cleaned out their lockers, he was quoted saying: “We’re stuck in this mindset of just being OK with losing. I feel it, too. I think it’s really crept into myself. Over the course of the year, I’ve lost myself a lot, where it’s just kind of get through, just being OK with just not making a mistake. That’s not winning hockey at all, and it’s crept into all of our games. It’s disappointing. It’s sad. I feel throughout the year I’ve lost the love of the game multiple times.” (from ‘Sabres’ Ryan O’Reilly says he lost love of game, lacked mental toughness,’ The Buffalo News, Apr 9, 2018)

[Ogelthorpe]

14 minutes ago, JP51 said:

LOL hey you know what... its a game, I love she is interested in it... some of my best memories with my Dad is us going to the rink at 6am for practice... he took me to my first game when I was 5... that happened to be the game Schoenfeld took Cashman thru the boards and started fighting... we were in the Oranges right over the zamboni door looking down... I remember after the game saying to my Dad... Dad that was fun can we do it again tomorrow...!!! He just laughed... I was hooked at that point... 🙂 

 

 

 

If only we had a player like that now. 

[CallawaySabres]

13 points out of 8th in January. Real question...is this Kruger bad? Will this end up being the worst team in Sabres history?

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Just now, CallawaySabres said:

13 points out of 8th in January. Real question...is this Kruger bad? Will this end up being the worst team in Sabres history?

With Kruger it was him. With the team now it is the whole team makeup. They are not built for a physical heavy forechecking game. They are more suited for badminton at this time and i would still worry about some of them getting hurt....

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, JP51 said:

LOL hey you know what... its a game, I love she is interested in it... some of my best memories with my Dad is us going to the rink at 6am for practice... he took me to my first game when I was 5... that happened to be the game Schoenfeld took Cashman thru the boards and started fighting... we were in the Oranges right over the zamboni door looking down... I remember after the game saying to my Dad... Dad that was fun can we do it again tomorrow...!!! He just laughed... I was hooked at that point... 🙂 

 

 

 

I was at that game. One of the best ever Sabres games played in the Aud.  Top 3 for sure. 

Schoeny was around 19-20 at the time.  Just a crazy rookie that was insane to watch.  Punch brought in the rugged and savvy veteran Tim Horton to pair with him and help teach him the ropes.   

Look at the box score and read the names.   https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/197212130BUF.html

It took Punch 3 years to build a solid and sustainable playoff team with the right combination of veterans and youth. 

Sure, the game is much different now but it just doesn't have to be like this, this bad for this long, with three rookie GMs running things into the ground.   

 

 

 

 

[LTS]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

No coach is going to change these tiger stripes. They are who they are.  A woefully flawed group who wilt at the first sign of pressure.  They don’t work hard enough on the ice to produce regular wins.  They say all the right things but rarely do them.  

The only thing that keeps me from getting to this point is that we continue to talk about players who are better when they leave Buffalo. This is why I keep focusing on the coach, GM, and most importantly the owner.

1 hour ago, WhenWillItEnd66 said:

Ok, so this is weird..... i was watching the game and shut it off and fell asleep after the end of the 2nd. I dreamt that we lost 5-2. That also included the empty netter.... So the real bad news is that i dreamt the Bills lose and Mahomes gets beat in the SB. 😵

If the Bills are to lose, then the second part of your dream is the only acceptable outcome.

I have no real words for this game overall. it's more of the same. So, I can't be upset because if I thought they would be different, that's on me.

Counting the days until NFL is over so I can cancel FUBO.

[Mr Peabody]

I don’t believe I’ve ever witnessed a special teams mismatch like last night when Sabres were on PP.  And I’ve seen bad. 

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, Thorner said:

I don’t like to toot my own horn when I can avoid it (ok, who am I kidding), but, I was screaming this at the board 3 full years ago:

I told everyone exactly what was going to happen. Adams rode in on a purported (bogus - told you) mandate to fix the culture and in so doing cemented the sabres culture as “team that doesn’t care about winning” 

I think there was an obvious pivot point for Adams and the franchise and that was the summer of 2023. Whether "the plan" to that point had been successful due to smart decisions or luck, it is nonetheless the case that they did manage to get to 91 points and play better than Deluca .500 hockey. Any culture of winning that had developed, though, was first stunted by Adams doing next to nothing in the summer of 2023, and then obliterated by him rolling back the same core of young players in the summer of 2024, to inhabit the most important roles on the team. Adams either outright misjudged the skill and readiness of his young talent, or he failed to create the proper environment for continued growth (or both).  Regardless, the level of failure is enormous. 

[msw2112]

4 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

 

Wouldn't consider it a meltdown tbh

They gave up 1 goal on a triple deflection then their PP did absolutely nothing until they gave up 2 ENGs

I do however agree that it was certainly a winnable game  

The sad thing is that the Sabres did play a pretty good game (outside of the abysmal PP), until the inevitable meltdown the 3rd period, and I would call it a meltdown.  It started when Calgary scored the 3rd goal and completed during the power play when the goalie was pulled, resulting in the inevitable empty net goal (the first one, that is).  They hustled, battled, scrapped, etc. during the 1st and 2nd periods and entered the 3rd tied 2-2 with a realistic chance to win.  Then the wheels came off, as they so often do.

I have NEVER seen a team give up so many odd-man rushes on the power play.  I'm pretty sure that Calgary had significantly more scoring chances during the Sabres' power plays than the Sabres did.  Has anyone here ever seen anything like it at the NHL level?

Edited 6 hours ago by msw2112

[inkman]

31 minutes ago, LTS said:

The only thing that keeps me from getting to this point is that we continue to talk about players who are better when they leave Buffalo. 

I don’t think any player that left here “got better”.  I think most of them were good players who went from a dire situation to a competent organization.  
 

Eichel - unlikable schmuck but always been a great player 

Reinhart - Alway good player put into perfect situation in Florida

Montour - good player prior to Buffalo, good player after.  He played under Krueger, arguably the worst coach in the history of the team if not the league.

Skinner - good player before and during his stint in Buffalo. Career coming to a close.  
 

Bogosian - high draft pick finally found his niche as a 5/6 dman with Tampa and wherever he ended up 

O’Reilly - been the same player everywhere he’s been

Kane - POS that only plays when he feels like it. 

Rodrigues - nice role player who can play up and down your lineup.  A nice depth piece but isn’t really a difference maker. 
 

Ristolainen - not good here, not good in Philly

Foligno - good player here, same player in Minnesota

McCabe - above average player here, same everywhere else he’s been

Ullmark - good for Buffalo, great in super defensive oriented highly experienced team with some of the leagues best defensive players ever 

Okposo - same player here and in Florida

Carrier - 4th line grinder everywhere he’s been

Larsson- arguably Buffalo was his best performance 

Olofsson - One trick pony, hasn’t been better in Vegas 

Scandella - good player here, good player elsewhere

Girgensons - has 2 points this season. 
 

Mittlestadt- pretty much a 0.5 ppg player regardless of uni 

Sheary - ancillary piece that can be good in a supporting role but isn’t never a difference maker 

 

Maybe I’m missing someone but I just don’t buy the “players get better elsewhere” narrative.  

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

It seems more plausible that trading Dahlin will enhance his career (the Cups are hard to predict), and still not result in a trade that helps turn the franchise around. 

Cases in point: 

An injured Eichel got us Tuch, Krebs, Östlund, and Greenway (via trade of a #2 pick).  Would you make that trade again?  

Reinhart got us Levi and Kulich.  Would you make that trade again?  

ROR got us Tage Thompson, Ryan Johnson, and a big pile of veteran poop (Berglund, Sobotka, and a pick that was flipped for Colin Miller).  Would you make that trade again?  

What if Dahlin loses his love for the game?   Here is direct copy of ROR's big crime against Terry Pegula's version of hockey heaven.

As he and his fellow Sabres teammates cleaned out their lockers, he was quoted saying: “We’re stuck in this mindset of just being OK with losing. I feel it, too. I think it’s really crept into myself. Over the course of the year, I’ve lost myself a lot, where it’s just kind of get through, just being OK with just not making a mistake. That’s not winning hockey at all, and it’s crept into all of our games. It’s disappointing. It’s sad. I feel throughout the year I’ve lost the love of the game multiple times.” (from ‘Sabres’ Ryan O’Reilly says he lost love of game, lacked mental toughness,’ The Buffalo News, Apr 9, 2018)

*****!!!! That was almost 7 GD years ago!

Sell the team, Terry.

 

Cue Wookie in 3…2….1…

I don’t care if they move if this is the hockey we continue to get. I just don’t.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, inkman said:

I don’t think any player that left here “got better”.  I think most of them were good players who went from a dire situation to a competent organization.  
 

Eichel - unlikable schmuck but always been a great player 

Reinhart - Alway good player put into perfect situation in Florida

Montour - good player prior to Buffalo, good player after.  He played under Krueger, arguably the worst coach in the history of the team if not the league.

Skinner - good player before and during his stint in Buffalo. Career coming to a close.  
 

Bogosian - high draft pick finally found his niche as a 5/6 dman with Tampa and wherever he ended up 

O’Reilly - been the same player everywhere he’s been

Kane - POS that only plays when he feels like it. 

Rodrigues - nice role player who can play up and down your lineup.  A nice depth piece but isn’t really a difference maker. 
 

Ristolainen - not good here, not good in Philly

Foligno - good player here, same player in Minnesota

McCabe - above average player here, same everywhere else he’s been

Ullmark - good for Buffalo, great in super defensive oriented highly experienced team with some of the leagues best defensive players ever 

Okposo - same player here and in Florida

Carrier - 4th line grinder everywhere he’s been

Larsson- arguably Buffalo was his best performance 

Olofsson - One trick pony, hasn’t been better in Vegas 

Scandella - good player here, good player elsewhere

Girgensons - has 2 points this season. 
 

Mittlestadt- pretty much a 0.5 ppg player regardless of uni 

Sheary - ancillary piece that can be good in a supporting role but isn’t never a difference maker 

 

Maybe I’m missing someone but I just don’t buy the “players get better elsewhere” narrative.  

We traded Eichel and Reinhart JUST as they were entering their primes so a lot of the improvement in another environment we saw was going to happen here anyways. People have gotten so into the habit of downplaying Eichel’s defensive improvement from 19-20 in the name of accrediting his improvement to leaving buffalo/new coach but 19-20 happened, Jack was 23, and he finished 8th in mvp voting largely because his D improved by leaps and bounds that year. We develop players and trade them and a big part is that young players are cheaper 

[JP51]

1 hour ago, Ogelthorpe said:

If only we had a player like that now. 

If only... 

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

I was at that game. One of the best ever Sabres games played in the Aud.  Top 3 for sure. 

Schoeny was around 19-20 at the time.  Just a crazy rookie that was insane to watch.  Punch brought in the rugged and savvy veteran Tim Horton to pair with him and help teach him the ropes.   

Look at the box score and read the names.   https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/197212130BUF.html

It took Punch 3 years to build a solid and sustainable playoff team with the right combination of veterans and youth. 

Sure, the game is much different now but it just doesn't have to be like this, this bad for this long, with three rookie GMs running things into the ground.   

 

 

 

 

Punch was a classic... and yes Tim Horton totally moulded Schoeny and was widely regarded at 44 as the strongest guy on the team. No one messed with him. Love the box score! 

[SwampD]

We know, @thewookie1, we know.

It’s a bigger embarrassment to have this team than no team.

Also, it would free me up to watch a lot more actual good hockey.

Edited 6 hours ago by SwampD

[thewookie1]

38 minutes ago, SwampD said:

We know, @thewookie1, we know.

It’s a bigger embarrassment to have this team than no team.

Also, it would free me up to watch a lot more actual good hockey.

Maybe its because you aren't in Buffalo anymore but for those of us still here its location is also paramount. 

[SwampD]

Just now, thewookie1 said:

Maybe it’s because you aren't in Buffalo anymore but for those of us still here its location is also paramount. 

I think I’d be even more angry if I was still in WNY. 😂

[thewookie1]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

I think I’d be even more angry if I was still in WNY. 😂

Oh I'm furious but would never want to lose my team; no matter how bad it may be. Buffalo loses far too much and losing the hockey team would just be another knife to the gut.

[Weave]

9 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Oh I'm furious but would never want to lose my team; no matter how bad it may be. Buffalo loses far too much and losing the hockey team would just be another knife to the gut.

Just think of how many more good nights of sleep you’ll get.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

*****!!!! That was almost 7 GD years ago!

Sell the team, Terry.

 

Cue Wookie in 3…2….1…

I don’t care if they move if this is the hockey we continue to get. I just don’t.

I previously felt that the position you expressed here was wrong and risky. Not anymore. I'm fed up with this stubborn and clueless owner who has led this franchise into the abyss for nearly a generation. I don't know if he has become apathetic or is tinkering with his toy to the extent that he has diminished it to the point that it has become a scorned and ridiculed franchise. Doesn't this billionaire have any pride?

The hiring of KA to be a GM was outrageous. This was a congenial and ill-equipped fellow who no other organization (good or bad) would have even considered. And without getting into the issue of whether Ruff was a good hire doesn't alter the fact that the hiring process was a charade. 

The owner has created an organization that suits him and allows him to interfere with the hockey operation. That's his prerogative as owner. The problem is that when you have a stubborn and conceited owner who doesn't recognize his own incompetence, then you become stuck with the malignant system that he has created. 

Look what happened when the Washington Commanders were able to finally shed its sleazy owner, Danny Snyder. Once his toxic presence was replaced with a knowledgeable owner who knew how to properly structure and staff his newly acquired franchise, the franchised became liberated and the results have been dramatically different. 

The sphinx owner of the Sabres deliberately created a shambolic organization because that is exactly what he wanted to do. I wish he would sell and pocket his abundant profits. He has no business owning a hockey franchise. An NHL franchise is a prized possession. He squandered it leaving the rapidly diminishing fanbase abused. 

[thewookie1]

31 minutes ago, Weave said:

Just think of how many more good nights of sleep you’ll get.

I wouldn't; I'd be incredibly depressed