Is next year's spine appearing before our eyes?

[inkman]

3 hours ago, Thorner said:

We have no interest in making the playoffs next year if Kulich lines up in the top 6 to start the year 

Like, zero 

but to answer your question: no it’s not a desired stat line for a C on this particular team, because we don’t seem to have any traditional playmaking centres 

Fine but that’s his trajectory.  He’s not remotely close to having a skill set requisite for a bottom six role.  Unless they want him in a mismatch offensive 3rd line role akin to Roy-Vanek-Afinogenov style.  

[PerreaultForever]

Just to be devil's advocate, so we get even younger, again?

I agree that Kulich is this year's pleasant surprise (as he's ahead of his timeline) and Kozak might become a decent bottom 6 guy so a great pick but really the failing is in how useless Lafferty has been not how decent Kozak has played. It's all relative. The bottom line reconstruction has been a complete failure. Fourth line this year is a downgrade from Girgs-Krebs-Kyle not the promised improvement.

Krebs might be playing his way into 3C. More suited to 4C imo but he has built his face off game and 2 way game and is a reasonable role player now. In many ways Krebs is the new Girgensens. Expectation of being a scoring center ending up as a solid bottom role player with a bit of grit. So Girgs out Krebs in we are younger but not better. 

Kulich is very promising but he needs to work on his defensive game still (like many of them) and he could use some more muscle and size. I expect him to eventually be a 2 or 3C but it is a mistake to rush him. We always rush them and it almost always bites us. Get more veterans and have these guys push those veterans out if they are able to. Develop them properly. 

[Night Train]

Sabres need moves in addition to the so called promising young guys.

Yes, salary is a factor. I would think Cozens, Power, Muel and others would be trade chips. JMO. 

[ska-T Palmtown]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Having McCleod as a third or fourth line center is fine with me. I don't know why you are so negative toward having McLeod being a third or fourth line center for us? He's gives you a veteran presence, provides speed and is a good character guy to have mingling with the youngsters. And there is a good possibility that if you provide McCleod with more productive wingers his production will also go up. 

The bold is a bit of a stretch ... he is 25 and this is just his 4th full NHL season. His 264 games played puts him behind Cozens and essentially ties him with Krebs for games played. He played on a team that knew how to win, so I guess there is that? Heck, Power has 210 games.

And I suppose 25 is borderline ancient for this lineup, lol.

[JohnC]

48 minutes ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

The bold is a bit of a stretch ... he is 25 and this is just his 4th full NHL season. His 264 games played puts him behind Cozens and essentially ties him with Krebs for games played. He played on a team that knew how to win, so I guess there is that? Heck, Power has 210 games.

And I suppose 25 is borderline ancient for this lineup, lol.

Comparatively, on this roster he is an experienced player who also has playoff experience. The key issue is how you play more than how long you have played. 

[ska-T Palmtown]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Comparatively, on this roster he is an experienced player who also has playoff experience. The key issue is how you play more than how long you have played. 

fair enough. I don't know that I have been struck by any special 'maturity' in his game. That said - I am firmly in the "keep McLeod camp", just picking at "veteran" because it is a sorta interesting topic and I am bored at work 🙂 

[mjd1001]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

How about having Cozens playing on a wing with Kulich centering for him? I would still like a second line winger added to the mix. That is doable.

My daily Cozens bashing:

It is almost getting comical how whenever Lindy changes line, whoever goes with Cozens gets worse and whoever leaves him to go to another line gets better.  I usually look at the basic stats, which shows this clearly. (+/-, points)  But after rewatching last nights game, I looked into just what happened last night.

Last night Tuch spent the night with Cozens (And Kozak):

Rel CF% for Cozens-Tuch-Kozak:  -21.64.  Benson-Krebs-Quinn: -3.63. Thompson-Kulich-Peterka: +21.96

Rel Fenwisk. Cozens-Tuch-Kozak: -17.65.  Benson-Krebs-Quinn: -9.02.  Thompson-Kulich-Peterak: +21.16

Cozens rarely makes his linemates better. In most cases their production (and for last nights game with new line-mate, their underlying metrics) crash and burn when they are put on the ice with Cozens.

 

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, msw2112 said:

I don't know if the premise of the original post has legs after only a game or two, but hey, given the miserable season that we're all experiencing, I'm OK with someone expressing a little optimism about some aspects of the Sabres.  Kulich has looked good.  Quinn has been scoring the last couple of weeks, after being left for dead earlier in the season.  Zucker has played well and Kozak has shown that he may have a future as a hard-working bottom-six player.  The Sabres won a game last night, with a third period comeback, and didn't give up a goal in a 6 on 5 situation.  At this point, with the playoffs pretty much out of reach, and some of us masochists still watching all the games, why not enjoy at least the occasional positive?

It doesn't mean that the Sabres don't need a major organizational shakeup sometime between now and the beginning of next season.

The Quinn example is a good argument for why both optimism being warranted and caution when projecting out for next year are both apt. When considering team building in the immediate future (in the name of achieving a goal, presumably playoffs), i don’t believe the issue is one where said optimism strictly applies for the better 

Re: Quinn: we aren’t (see: shouldn’t be) in the business of development years anymore. It’s great Quinn appears to be coming along, im optimistic on his future, but it doesn’t change the fact we were counting on him for a full season of production in the name of helping facilitate a playoff berth: that was supposed to be the goal. Obviously his season in totality has fallen drastically short on that front. So we have to look at Quinn both in the context of an individual level and what the team expected of him. The latter is a management flaw. 

We can be optimistic about Kulich, but in the spirit of addressing the thread supposition, I think counting on a full season of solid production from Kulich next year in any kind of important role is negligent team building, optimism/pessimism neither here nor there 

Edited yesterday at 01:31 AM by Thorner

[Stoner]

16 minutes ago, Thorner said:

The Quinn example is a good argument for why both optimism being warranted and caution when projecting out for next year are both apt. When considering team building in the immediate future (in the name of achieving a goal, presumably playoffs), i don’t believe the issue is one where said optimism strictly applies for the better 

Re: Quinn: we aren’t (see: shouldn’t be) in the business of development years anymore. It’s great Quinn appears to be coming along, im optimistic on his future, but it doesn’t change the fact we were counting on him for a full season of production in the name of helping facilitate a playoff berth: that was supposed to be the goal. Obviously his season in totality has fallen drastically short on that front. So we have to look at Quinn both in the context of an individual level and what the team expected of him. The latter is a management flaw. 

We can be optimistic about Kulich, but in the spirit of addressing the thread supposition, I think counting on a full season of solid production from Kulich next year in any kind of important role is negligent team building, optimism/pessimism neither here nor there 

Keep fighting. Don't ever give up. Fight in the GDTs. Fight in the draft threads. In the random thread and on some mods' birthday. Never never never.

Your day will come. Mine did re: TP. Now I sit in my reclining chair with a shawl on and drink my Boost.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

My daily Cozens bashing:

It is almost getting comical how whenever Lindy changes line, whoever goes with Cozens gets worse and whoever leaves him to go to another line gets better.  I usually look at the basic stats, which shows this clearly. (+/-, points)  But after rewatching last nights game, I looked into just what happened last night.

Last night Tuch spent the night with Cozens (And Kozak):

Rel CF% for Cozens-Tuch-Kozak:  -21.64.  Benson-Krebs-Quinn: -3.63. Thompson-Kulich-Peterka: +21.96

Rel Fenwisk. Cozens-Tuch-Kozak: -17.65.  Benson-Krebs-Quinn: -9.02.  Thompson-Kulich-Peterak: +21.16

Cozens rarely makes his linemates better. In most cases their production (and for last nights game with new line-mate, their underlying metrics) crash and burn when they are put on the ice with Cozens.

 

I have a different view on Cozens than most others have here. It's indisputable that Cozens has dramatically regressed this year. But let's not forget that prior to this regressive year (for a lot of players) that he has shown promise as a player. In the 23-24 season he scored 31 goals and had 37 assists with a +/- -3. In the 23-24 season he had 18 goals and 29 assists with a +/- -4.  

Instead of giving up on a young player who would likely perform better in a better functioning franchise, why not try putting him in a better position to succeed? I have felt for a long time that he is better suited to play wing. In the international tournaments, whenever he played wing with upper tier talent, he has thrived. 

I'm not against making a deal that improves this team. But right now his value is low, and the likely return won't be substantial. I still believe that he can be a capable second-line winger. I'm not throwing in the towel just yet on him. I recommend more patience and see how things development with him. I'm confident that my position is a minority position but am still comfortable with my position on this player. 

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I have been outspoken about my wish to move on from Cozens and McLeod.  I have also been outspoken about my wish for the Sabres to bring in a top 6 forward, preferably a playmaking center.  I have also been outspoken on my belief we need more vets like Zucker not less.   

However, I have been watching the Sabres again lately just to see if there is really any hope left and I have found two players, that are bringing me some hope.  They are Kozak and Kulich.   Kozak brings an honest effort every shift.  He has shown more effort in heart in his 8 games than all of Adams 4th line acquisitions except maybe Malenstyn. 

Kulich just keeps getting better with each game played.  He now has 12 points (8 goals) in 33 games and as many goals as Benson (8, 8, 41 games) and twice that of Krebs (4, 12 46 games).  Kulich also was solidly 9/20 in the face off circle last night.  

If Kozak and Kulich continue to build on this game and others like it, the Sabres just may have their 3rd and 4th line centers for the near future.  

The best news about their ascension is it frees our limited capital to begin to fix the other holes in the lineup like defense and playmaking in the top 6. 

A playmaker 1C type center is a bigger need.  From there you push our top center(s) down.  That improves multiple positions and gives more competition so that we aren't reliant on kids like Kulich and Kozak unless they can beat out a vet.  

We have to stop giving jobs to the kids, make them take the jobs away.  
 

[Doohicksie]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

the failing is in how useless Lafferty

Lafferty was never going to be more than an expendable 4th line JAG.

[SwampD]

If that’s next year’s spine, we’re ****ed.

If they are trying to save, like, $2MM, we’re ****ed.

Also-

19 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

You legit need to just walk away from the "we should not sign McLeod" schtick you got going. It is still illogical in the extreme. Why the flying F would I give a ***** about paying a legit NHL center 4mil a year just to save a couple million by replacing him with a guy who has 1 NHL goal total, and another who is a 20yr old rookie that if he gets in trouble, in your scenario, there is 0, zilch, nada in the wings to replace him. He's just fed to the wolves. I am sorry but you deserve to be called out every single time you start this bizarre crusade against McLeod. WTF man, you want to get rid of McLeod and his 10g and 24pts to date, a guy who is 6'3" and over 50% on faceoffs so we can hope and pray that 5'11" Tyson Kozak can pick of the slack? You've completely lost objectivity. 

Ya know **** got real when LGR is using size to make his point. 😂

[LGR4GM]

Just now, SwampD said:

If that’s next year’s spine, we’re ****ed.

If they are trying to save, like, $2MM, we’re ****ed.

Also-

Ya know **** got real when LGR is using size to make his point. 😂

I wish we had a team of 6'3" centers that played like Benson. I would be happier than a pig in *****. 

[LGR4GM]

I'd like to note that 3 of my biggest "Buffalo should f-ing draft this dude" players have been, Seth Jarvis, Marco Rossi, and Zach Benson and it wasn't because they were short, it was because they were aggressive pursuers of the puck in all 3 zones. Those 3 are how I want my team to play. 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Doohicksie said:

Lafferty was never going to be more than an expendable 4th line JAG.

Thank you.  From the start of 2021 to today Lafferty has played on 5 different teams.  He is a fourth line player. 

[Doohicksie]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Thank you.  From the start of 2021 to today Lafferty has played on 5 different teams.  He is a fourth line player. 

All three of these players were brought on as "temps" with no plans except that they be fourth liners. 

One or more may stick but I don't expect it.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Doohicksie said:

All three of these players were brought on as "temps" with no plans except that they be fourth liners. 

One or more may stick but I don't expect it.

Malenstyn will be back, he has another year in the contract.  He is doing what they wanted him to do. 

Lafferty has another year on his contract, but not sure.  He could be a 13/14 forward as he plays C and Wing.

NAK will move on.  

Edited yesterday at 06:22 PM by Pimlach

[Doohicksie]

Yeah, really they've all been fine as fourth liners but they're still just JAGs.  McLeod may be a keeper at some level (middle six).  Zucker is a short-timer based on his age but I've seen enough to say he can stay on as long as he wants to and continues to perform near the level we've seen so far.

[7+6=13]

23 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He is, but why pay him $4 mill when Kulich and Kozak combine for 1.6 mill?  

Thompson is the No. 1 C

The Sabres need to find a 2

Kulich 3

Kozak 4

with Krebs as a floater.  

How does going with Kulich and Kozak = more vets like Zucker.  

[inkman]

This team haveth no spineth 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, Doohicksie said:

Lafferty was never going to be more than an expendable 4th line JAG.

Well if all you are expecting is a JAG why pay him 2 million a year? Why aren't you just grabbing some shmuck off the waiver wire. Tons of players better than him making less have been available. It makes no sense. 

They expected a 4th line upgrade and they got a downgrade. 

[Doohicksie]

Don't ask me.  I don't make these calls.

[Weave]

51 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well if all you are expecting is a JAG why pay him 2 million a year? Why aren't you just grabbing some shmuck off the waiver wire. Tons of players better than him making less have been available. It makes no sense. 

They expected a 4th line upgrade and they got a downgrade. 

I don’t know thst he’s a downgrade, but $2M/yr is the fine for being a crappy hockey team.

[DarthEbriate]

38 minutes ago, Weave said:

I don’t know thst he’s a downgrade, but $2M/yr is the fine for being a crappy hockey team.

Lafferty's salary was also based on his prior production. Last year, he had 13-11-24 in less than 12 minutes/game and the year before that, he had more minutes and also 12-15-27 pts. It's production that dwarfed Zemgus' offensive numbers (who hadn't scored more than 20 points since 2014-15).

My 2nd biggest disappointment with production (with the roster as constructed, not how it should have been constructed) this season is Lafferty. Quinn is at least coming around recently.