Does the fact there has been no movement actually signal hope?

[Sidc3000]

4 hours ago, Thorner said:

A lot of owners want eveything run by them. Most, I’d say. That’s not what makes Terry stand out from the majority. That’s not a variable that on it’s own comes close to distinguishing us from the rest of the league and thus explaining our inability to make the playoffs 

Youngest.

Young teams are cheap. Cheap teams don’t win. Teams that don’t SPEND don’t make the playoffs. 2 of the last 160 spent bottom 10 and made it. A lot of meddling owners made it within that time frame. 

We have the data: Pegula is failing because of self-imposed restrictions. He’s not forcing Adams to assemble a team of young players because he thinks that’s the best way to win, that doesn’t make any sense. The mandate is to keep costs down - and when that’s the mandate teams don’t make the playoffs. And when the GM is inept you get what we are seeing: 5 years of averaging like 70 points 

Absolutely. Like I’ve said before, the Sabres are just a means to an end. He had to cuts costs to help with the Bills stadium financing. 

[SabresVet]

22 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Someone on hfboards wrote this line and I like it so much I thought I would share it here:

”In my life following pro sports, 4 decades plus, I cannot recall a larger gap between the expectations set by a GM and the reality delivered”

Probably one of the worst GM performances of modern times. If Adams isn’t fired at season’s end then there is absolutely no accountability or hope that Pegula is treating the Sabres as a serious sports franchise.

Adams' lack of response as the season goes down like the Hindenburg is indicative that missing the playoffs remained more optional from a management perspective than what was advertised to fans.  

And if that's the case, the GM has almost no fear of losing his job regardless of performance.  

If there's a benefit to more losing it's how this illuminates that Adams has no real authority, there is a low internal spending cap, and the playoffs wasn't as big a priority as promised.

And like last year when people debated whether Granato would be fired, I will not assume they'll fire Adams.  They could easily sell Lindy Ruff, but a GM promoted from within like Forton is not going to move the needle after 14 straight missed playoff seasons. 

[Porous Five Hole]

I think I’m going to step into some dog poop here with a lot of posters, but I’m starting to think the Sabres literally cannot give the cap money away.  

When Covid hit and EEE came about, Pegula was worth about five billion dollars. Today, he’s worth $7.6 billion dollars. I know the Sabres lose money, but like who cares when you make a couple billion in net worth every five years? He’s 74 years old in March and after Kim’s thing, he’s got to be thinking of his own mortality. If you’re him, why have any limitations right now?

Kevyn has indicated that he isn’t operating under any financial restrictions. What if he’s telling the truth? No one wants to come here even if the Sabres are willing to overpay? And at some point the player evaluation for the Sabres-suck-tax they have to pay just makes it a bad idea.   

I dunno, this Pegula nightmare has so many layers and most of them are not good. 

[mjd1001]

25 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I think I’m going to step into some dog poop here with a lot of posters, but I’m starting to think the Sabres literally cannot give the cap money away.  

When Covid hit and EEE came about, Pegula was worth about five billion dollars. Today, he’s worth $7.6 billion dollars. I know the Sabres lose money, but like who cares when you make a couple billion in net worth every five years? He’s 74 years old in March and after Kim’s thing, he’s got to be thinking of his own mortality. If you’re him, why have any limitations right now?

Kevyn has indicated that he isn’t operating under any financial restrictions. What if he’s telling the truth? No one wants to come here even if the Sabres are willing to overpay? And at some point the player evaluation for the Sabres-suck-tax they have to pay just makes it a bad idea.   

I dunno, this Pegula nightmare has so many layers and most of them are not good. 

There are a few articles about how Jerry Jones is running the Cowboys now. Still spending money, but he's spending less on coaches (compared to the rest of the league) and they have signed less higher priced free agents in the last few years than they have in the past.  Sure, they are still spending, but as another billionaire with the most valuable franchise in North American sports, why is it that, like Pegula, as he gets older the pocketbook is seeming to not get more open, but in many ways tighter? (CBSsports had an article up earlier in the day I can't find the link to it now but it explained a lot of the monetary corners Jones is cutting now that he hadn't done in the past))

It seems like with some owners, not all but some, as the get older, and richer, they are more protective of their money.

Edited Saturday at 07:51 PM by mjd1001

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I think I’m going to step into some dog poop here with a lot of posters, but I’m starting to think the Sabres literally cannot give the cap money away.  

When Covid hit and EEE came about, Pegula was worth about five billion dollars. Today, he’s worth $7.6 billion dollars. I know the Sabres lose money, but like who cares when you make a couple billion in net worth every five years? He’s 74 years old in March and after Kim’s thing, he’s got to be thinking of his own mortality. If you’re him, why have any limitations right now?

Kevyn has indicated that he isn’t operating under any financial restrictions. What if he’s telling the truth? No one wants to come here even if the Sabres are willing to overpay? And at some point the player evaluation for the Sabres-suck-tax they have to pay just makes it a bad idea.   

I dunno, this Pegula nightmare has so many layers and most of them are not good. 

Where this argument falls apart I think, is that there are lots of good NHL players who don’t have trade protection. Also, there are lots who will sign with the Sabres as UFAs (in my opinion). Adams traded for Tuch, Greenway, McLeod and has signed Clifton and Zucker as UFAs. Maybe these aren’t star players, but they are solid to good players all of whom played playoff games before coming to the Sabres. Had Adams made 3-4 additional moves for players in this category between June 2023 and August 2024, we would be in a different place in my view. If Adams can’t give money away, it is a problem of his own making. He waited too long to make meaningful moves and the team has regressed back to where it was when he fired Krueger. 

[Dreams Burn Down]

[Thorner]

38 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Where this argument falls apart I think, is that there are lots of good NHL players who don’t have trade protection. Also, there are lots who will sign with the Sabres as UFAs (in my opinion). Adams traded for Tuch, Greenway, McLeod and has signed Clifton and Zucker as UFAs. Maybe these aren’t star players, but they are solid to good players all of whom played playoff games before coming to the Sabres. Had Adams made 3-4 additional moves for players in this category between June 2023 and August 2024, we would be in a different place in my view. If Adams can’t give money away, it is a problem of his own making. He waited too long to make meaningful moves and the team has regressed back to where it was when he fired Krueger. 

I think what people underestimate most is that no one isn’t willing to consider the context and grant Adams and co certain caveats. I think people actually understand that, similar to Winnipeg, building a great team here isn’t the easiest thing to do. We aren’t talking about that, though. We are talking about making the playoffs once. We are talking about not failing to make it for 5 straight years. We are talking about how we’ve averaged 70 something points for 5 years.

The caveats excuse some failure, not complete ineptitude. Maybe we can’t be the Jets. Maybe we can’t make the playoffs 8 times since they came back. The rub is that everyone is simply asking to make it once 

[mjd1001]

53 minutes ago, Thorner said:

I think what people underestimate most is that no one isn’t willing to consider the context and grant Adams and co certain caveats. I think people actually understand that, similar to Winnipeg, building a great team here isn’t the easiest thing to do. We aren’t talking about that, though. We are talking about making the playoffs once. We are talking about not failing to make it for 5 straight years. We are talking about how we’ve averaged 70 something points for 5 years.

The caveats excuse some failure, not complete ineptitude. Maybe we can’t be the Jets. Maybe we can’t make the playoffs 8 times since they came back. The rub is that everyone is simply asking to make it once 

And in that time Winnipeg only had 1 single top 5 pick (Leine), not 2 #1's and 2 #2's like the Sabres.  And yeah, they have a great goalie, but they aren't doing it just on their goaltending. They are the #1 scoring team in the league right now.

[JohninMinn.]

[Gatorman0519]

I’m certain that it is because they are this inept. 

[GoPuckYourself]

4 hours ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I think I’m going to step into some dog poop here with a lot of posters, but I’m starting to think the Sabres literally cannot give the cap money away.  

When Covid hit and EEE came about, Pegula was worth about five billion dollars. Today, he’s worth $7.6 billion dollars. I know the Sabres lose money, but like who cares when you make a couple billion in net worth every five years? He’s 74 years old in March and after Kim’s thing, he’s got to be thinking of his own mortality. If you’re him, why have any limitations right now?

Kevyn has indicated that he isn’t operating under any financial restrictions. What if he’s telling the truth? No one wants to come here even if the Sabres are willing to overpay? And at some point the player evaluation for the Sabres-suck-tax they have to pay just makes it a bad idea.   

I dunno, this Pegula nightmare has so many layers and most of them are not good. 

I can't really fathom how anyone could actually believe this, there is a huge list of players that have no- no movement clauses and I'm talking a hefty list where those players have no say in where they want to be traded. Kevyn is afraid to part with any asset and to be honest I'm glad because he should not be allowed to make a single trade if he's not going to be our GM of the future (Which if he's our GM next year I will not watch a single game that I promise you unless a miracle happens and we get to the playoffs). 

[mjd1001]

7 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I can't really fathom how anyone could actually believe this, there is a huge list of players that have no- no movement clauses and I'm talking a hefty list where those players have no say in where they want to be traded. Kevyn is afraid to part with any asset and to be honest I'm glad because he should not be allowed to make a single trade if he's not going to be our GM of the future (Which if he's our GM next year I will not watch a single game that I promise you unless a miracle happens and we get to the playoffs). 

I'm on his side. I think this starts at the top and that is with Pegula.  I think everything runs though him, and reading between a lot of lines Pegula has more input into this mess than many other owners.

Again, I'm not defending Adams, but to me its more on Pegula than anyone.

[Thorner]

It’s not input on roster decisions. It’s a self-imposed salary cap.

This is a recording 

it doesn’t change the fact that ultimately the buck stops at the owner: but he’s absentee, he doesn’t care. The idea he’s overbearingly present is at strict odds with the actual root of the problem 

Edited Sunday at 12:25 AM by Thorner

[Porous Five Hole]

35 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I can't really fathom how anyone could actually believe this, there is a huge list of players that have no- no movement clauses and I'm talking a hefty list where those players have no say in where they want to be traded. Kevyn is afraid to part with any asset and to be honest I'm glad because he should not be allowed to make a single trade if he's not going to be our GM of the future (Which if he's our GM next year I will not watch a single game that I promise you unless a miracle happens and we get to the playoffs). 

I was more speaking about free agency and why the Sabres are no where near the cap.
 

But I’ll follow your rabbit hole. You cannot assume the Sabres are afraid to trade an asset for fear of losing a deal. They’ve made plenty of trades for guys (Greenway, McLeod, Byram, etc). We have it on good insiders authority that Necas and Ehlers declined extension talks if traded to Buffalo. 
 

I’m saying the Sabres money “is no good here.” I’m saying there are no self-imposed limitations and they still can’t hand it out. 

[Archie Lee]

5 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I was more speaking about free agency and why the Sabres are no where near the cap.
 

But I’ll follow your rabbit hole. You cannot assume the Sabres are afraid to trade an asset for fear of losing a deal. They’ve made plenty of trades for guys (Greenway, McLeod, Byram, etc). We have it on good insiders authority that Necas and Ehlers declined extension talks if traded to Buffalo. 
 

I’m saying the Sabres money “is no good here.” I’m saying there are no self-imposed limitations and they still can’t hand it out. 

I think there is zero evidence to support the conclusion in your last sentence.

[Porous Five Hole]

12 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I think there is zero evidence to support the conclusion in your last sentence.

GMKA said it. You’re assuming he’s lying and I am not.

We agree the state of the team is atrocious.  Why is it so hard to believe no one wants Sabres money? Genuinely asking. 

[Archie Lee]

3 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

GMKA said it. You’re assuming he’s lying and I am not.

We agree the state of the team is atrocious.  Why is it so hard to believe no one wants Sabres money? Genuinely asking. 

Because there are a lot of players in the NHL aside from Ehlers and Necas. Because we have been able to convince lots of players to take Sabre money. 

[GoPuckYourself]

1 hour ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I was more speaking about free agency and why the Sabres are no where near the cap.
 

But I’ll follow your rabbit hole. You cannot assume the Sabres are afraid to trade an asset for fear of losing a deal. They’ve made plenty of trades for guys (Greenway, McLeod, Byram, etc). We have it on good insiders authority that Necas and Ehlers declined extension talks if traded to Buffalo. 
 

I’m saying the Sabres money “is no good here.” I’m saying there are no self-imposed limitations and they still can’t hand it out. 

I'm not trying to argue or lead you into a rabbit hole but Greenway was traded for a 2nd rounder (we already had another 2nd that year) so not much given up there. Byram was traded straight up for Casey Middlestadt who we weren't going to re-sign obviously since we dealt him so no assets given up other than an even swap and you're correct, finally an asset given up but we also got a 25 year old C in the deal but we did give up a 1st round talent at the time so I'll give that to Adams I reckon. 

Oh you did not state free agency so I thought you were speaking in general my mistake. But even so I'm sure we'd have no problems getting players to come here if we overpaid which many thought we did when we landed Zucker and I think many posters even complained about it. Maybe you're correct but I remeber Tim Murray saying something along the lines of "It's always easy getting guys to take your money" or some sort of cornball remark like that. 

[Porous Five Hole]

3 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Because there are a lot of players in the NHL aside from Ehlers and Necas. Because we have been able to convince lots of players to take Sabre money. 

In free agency? 
Perhaps we are getting lost in the weeds. My central thesis was that Pegula doesn’t have a self-imposed salary cap and KA cannot give the cap money away. 
 

It is easy to point to EEE, but is that the right thing do in 2025 given the other talking points I mentioned?
I could just be playing devil’s advocate here. I don’t have any sources other than KA saying he doesn’t have any spending limitations in press conferences.  

[7+6=13]

5 hours ago, Thorner said:

It’s not input on roster decisions. It’s a self-imposed salary cap.

This is a recording 

it doesn’t change the fact that ultimately the buck stops at the owner: but he’s absentee, he doesn’t care. The idea he’s overbearingly present is at strict odds with the actual root of the problem 

When did the "self imposed salary cap" start and why?

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, Porous Five Hole said:

My central thesis was that Pegula doesn’t have a self-imposed salary cap and KA cannot give the cap money away. 
 

There are clearly some kind of spending limitations.  There is no way the team trades Mitts and buys out Skinner to save real $ and then doesn't replace them except with cheaper and historically less productive players.   Last season we were paying Skinner, Mitts, VO, KO, Z, Jost and Robinson $24.85 million.  Their replacements, Zucker, McLeod, Lafferty, Kubel, Malenstyn and Kulich are earning 12.83 (plus 1.44 in dead cap for Skinner).

[Thorner]

Something I find staggering is that you can completely remove the entirety of the 13 game losing streak, and if you extrapolate our points pace out from the remaining 36 games, it’s still only a pace of 87 points over 82.

that would be good for 20th last year. AFTER you remove the 13 game losing streak. That’s in year 5 of this regime.

[Weave]

19 minutes ago, Thorner said:

Something I find staggering is that you can completely remove the entirety of the 13 game losing streak, and if you extrapolate our points pace out from the remaining 36 games, it’s still only a pace of 87 points over 82.

that would be good for 20th last year. AFTER you remove the 13 game losing streak. That’s in year 5 of this regime.

Just a 3 game winning streak away from trending upward.

[mjd1001]

They have been broken since Thanksgiving.

On the even of he last game before Thanksgiving I think they were in a playoff spot.  11-9-1. Over .500. Positive goal differential. Playoff spot. Won 3 in a row and 4 out of 5 coming off of a western road trip. Things were really looking up around here.

Since then 7-17-4 (basically 7-21).  A 52 point pace.  

I'm trying to think back, did something happen right at the start of that losing streak that broke this team....as Thorner said...even taking out the streak they haven't been good. It just seems like such an inflection point to be random.

 

[Archie Lee]

54 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

They have been broken since Thanksgiving.

On the even of he last game before Thanksgiving I think they were in a playoff spot.  11-9-1. Over .500. Positive goal differential. Playoff spot. Won 3 in a row and 4 out of 5 coming off of a western road trip. Things were really looking up around here.

Since then 7-17-4 (basically 7-21).  A 52 point pace.  

I'm trying to think back, did something happen right at the start of that losing streak that broke this team....as Thorner said...even taking out the streak they haven't been good. It just seems like such an inflection point to be random.

 

They had what seemed like a normal 3 game setback, losing 1-0 to Minnesota, 4-3 in OT to Vancouver and 3-0 to the Islanders. Normal for the last 2 years anyway. Then the Colorado game. Then the press conference. Then the Pegula visit. In hindsight, it was rather quaint how upset we were after the Colorado game. As though things could not have gotten worse from there.