Why Are We So, So Bad When Other Team Has Empty Net?

[bob_sauve28]

I'm sort of hoping that when Greenway comes back we improve on this, but this is terrible. Here is a site that measures Empty Net performance but I'm not sure how to read it

 https://morehockeystats.com/teams/en#google_vignette.  

 

They were so good at killing penalties last game you would figure that 6-5 would be the same, but whatever.

 

Is it all just part of the overall third period collapses we see?  

[HumanSlinky39]

10 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I'm sort of hoping that when Greenway comes back we improve on this, but this is terrible. Here is a site that measures Empty Net performance but I'm not sure how to read it

 https://morehockeystats.com/teams/en#google_vignette.  

 

They were so good at killing penalties last game you would figure that 6-5 would be the same, but whatever.

 

Is it all just part of the overall third period collapses we see?  

I think it's a function of their overall play with a lead. They don't attack, they don't forecheck. They go into a shell and chase the opposition around. Hard to get possession to get off a shot when you aren't trying to.

[mjd1001]

I was thinking of this very thing this morning.

I went to the NHL web site to see how many goals they allowed when the other team brought on the extra skater. I was sure they would be leading the league.

They actually aren't. It still seems like they are really bad at defending it, but there are a few teams worse.

[JP51]

Either our is empty or thiers is... puck control needs to improve 1 on 1 battles in critical areas and faceoffs... none of these imo are strengths of ours. 

[Pimlach]

25 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I'm sort of hoping that when Greenway comes back we improve on this, but this is terrible. Here is a site that measures Empty Net performance but I'm not sure how to read it

 https://morehockeystats.com/teams/en#google_vignette.  

 

They were so good at killing penalties last game you would figure that 6-5 would be the same, but whatever.

 

Is it all just part of the overall third period collapses we see?  

They treat the puck like a hot potato.  No puck pressure and no puck possession. Lots of icing and lost faceoffs.  

[msw2112]

I think it's mental.  They've squandered so many leads that they mentally lose their focus and start running around like chickens with their heads cut off in their own zone, making passes directly to the other team, etc. rather than doing what they were coached to do.  They panic.  

It really starts earlier in the third-period (pretty much when the 3rd period puck is dropped) and the mental issues are exacerbated when the opposing team pulls their goalie.

Being the youngest team in the league without enough steady-handed and steady-minded veteran players, particularly on defense, also contributes to the problem.

[Stoner]

So wait. What is this other team's net is empty you speak of?

[pi2000]

It's a mental thing... it will pass.i

Right now it seems they're more comfortable with a 1 goal lead rather than a 3 goal lead.

That's how hockey goes sometimes.

I'm not concerned.

 

[DarthEbriate]

The coaches clearly tell them to play passively. It's by design.

The players lack the vision (or again, coaching) to identify moments to attack and capitalize on them (which is odd, because they're fine at that on the PK).

The players (Muel) don't ever realize they have time and space. Don't blindly ice it. Turn, gather yourself, and if you're going to ice it -- shoot it instead. VO style.

 

And worst of all, they don't want it. When the other team pulls its goalie, you should be salivating to pad your stats and punish them. That means winning a puck battle or two.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Lack of defensive talent.

[Captain Caveman]

18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lack of defensive talent.

I do think there's something to the fact that our top line defensemen aren't strong defensively.

[SwampD]

Are they really that much better when both nets are full?

[Stoner]

I don't know what we're discussing here. When the other team's net is empty?

[bob_sauve28]

3 hours ago, pi2000 said:

It's a mental thing... it will pass.i

Right now it seems they're more comfortable with a 1 goal lead rather than a 3 goal lead.

That's how hockey goes sometimes.

I'm not concerned.

 

Sure hope this is correct. Young players do get better, what an idea! 

[mjd1001]

23 minutes ago, Stoner said:

I don't know what we're discussing here. When the other team's net is empty?

That was my impression. When the Sabres are up by a goal, and the other team pulls the goalie.

When the Sabres are 5v6 (other team pulls their goalie), they have allowed 6 goales (Toronto is the worst with allowing 9, Vancouver and C-bus at 7....Buffalo is tied for 4th worst with 6).

On the other side of the spectrum, when the Sabres pull their goalie because they are behind, (6v5), the Sabres are 4th worse also by allowing 12 empty netters against.

Here is the 'net' of it. When a goalie is pulled, either on, in a game the Sabres are involved in, they have allowed 18 goals scored against them.  In the same situations, they have scored 12. So when either team pulls a goalie, Buffalo is a net -6 on the year.  Not good, but not as dismal as I thought.

Edited January 16 by mjd1001

[PerreaultForever]

I think it's less complicated. To me it's just a lack of urgency and physical play. They don't win enough puck battles. They haven't won enough puck battles since game one. They haven't won enough puck battles since I honestly don't know how long, but years. 

We are at that stage of the year when teams coast in expecting to win easily and we catch them napping. They turn it on at the end maybe and if they have a goalie out and are a goal down they wake up for a bit and battle for pucks. We lose those battles. It's not more complicated than that.

[bob_sauve28]

47 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think it's less complicated. To me it's just a lack of urgency and physical play. They don't win enough puck battles. They haven't won enough puck battles since game one. They haven't won enough puck battles since I honestly don't know how long, but years. 

We are at that stage of the year when teams coast in expecting to win easily and we catch them napping. They turn it on at the end maybe and if they have a goalie out and are a goal down they wake up for a bit and battle for pucks. We lose those battles. It's not more complicated than that.

Sometimes they don't even get to have puck battles because the other team just takes the puck and keeps it until they pop in a few goals. Like child's play, really. 

I sure would like to have big Greenway out there with his long reach tipping passes. 

[bob_sauve28]

2 hours ago, Stoner said:

I don't know what we're discussing here. When the other team's net is empty?

You know, the old "pulling out all the stops" move, or adding the extra attacker. So when we are winning, like we have more goals on the board than their dumb ***** do, the other team is pressing, terrified at the fact they might actually lose to us, so they pull their dumb goalie who usually goes back into the game with the score tied, or at least their team one goal closer to tying it up. 

 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Sometimes they don't even get to have puck battles because the other team just takes the puck and keeps it until they pop in a few goals. Like child's play, really. 

I sure would like to have big Greenway out there with his long reach tipping passes. 

Well fair enough, they are so one sided "puck battles" that they really aren't a "battle" I will give you that. They SHOULD be a battle, but they aren't. 

I'm mostly thinking of a shoot in and they go after it, get to it first or take it away and then the Sabre player just tries to reach for it or he gets bodied off of it. Opponent just turns his body and shields the puck and then they gain control with a pass to an open player down low or back to the point. 

Greenway actually does battle for it that's true but I wouldn't be surprised if we never see him as a Sabre again. 

[K-9]

Lack of poise and the fear of making a mistake which prevents them from being more aggressive on the puck. 
 

Oh, and we can’t win D zone faceoffs to save our lives.

[PerreaultForever]

54 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Lack of poise and the fear of making a mistake which prevents them from being more aggressive on the puck. 
 

Oh, and we can’t win D zone faceoffs to save our lives.

Nothing personal, but I don't buy into that. They make tons of mistakes and there doesn't seem to be any consequences for making them. Afraid of some opposing players maybe, but not fear of making mistakes. I think quite a few of them are quite arrogant and they think quite highly of themselves and their abilities. Hence what they do do is break the system and play like individuals too often, that's for sure. 

For all the talk, there doesn't seem to be any change in accountability this year. 

[LETSTUCHINGO]

18 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lack of defensive talent.

Interesting seeing how we have 2 number 1 picks (RD, OP), a 4th pick (BB) and the 32nd pick (MT) making up 4 out of the 6 on the ice! I'd say we are young and flush with talent with no solid vets to back them up and show them how to play night in and night out.

[Captain Caveman]

5 hours ago, LETSTUCHINGO said:

Interesting seeing how we have 2 number 1 picks (RD, OP), a 4th pick (BB) and the 32nd pick (MT) making up 4 out of the 6 on the ice! I'd say we are young and flush with talent with no solid vets to back them up and show them how to play night in and night out.

By MT I assume you mean MS - of those 4 guys 3 are "offensive" defenseman, with Dahlin the only one of the 3 who might be considered sound defensively.  Power has been a disaster in his own zone, and Byram has been up and down (though the offense seems to mostly make up for it.) But when we are defending a lead, this team isn't generally looking to generate offense and our strength on D becomes a weakness.

 

[LETSTUCHINGO]

On 1/17/2025 at 2:07 PM, Captain Caveman said:

By MT I assume you mean MS - of those 4 guys 3 are "offensive" defenseman, with Dahlin the only one of the 3 who might be considered sound defensively.  Power has been a disaster in his own zone, and Byram has been up and down (though the offense seems to mostly make up for it.) But when we are defending a lead, this team isn't generally looking to generate offense and our strength on D becomes a weakness.

 

Yes, I meant MS. Thank you. I agree with you that our defensemen are more offensive. I was arguing that we are flush with the talent. The fact that they aren't taught how to play defense correctly or have a sound system in place is a joke.

[WhenWillItEnd66]

This is just 1 of about 50 things this team is bad at. Just a drop in the bucket for the despair of this team.