Is it time to consider taking away the C from Dahlin or does that do nothing and lose the player?

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I’m probably 1 of the more harsher critics of Dahlin. His offensive game is really good but his situational awareness especially at key times is mid to mediocre imo and his defensive game still to me is mid not elite but I still blame coaching, this guy should be a Drew Doughty who can score by now and it’s pretty sad that he isn’t.

With all that said stripping the C from him makes little sense or any of the others this season at least as Dahlin is our best player on the ice most nights.

I'd love to see Dahlin be a little more composed in close games when folks purposely try to get him off his game. Just face wash them and let it go from there; the refs will let that go.

But, I don't think Doughty is who you're thinking of as someone Dahlin needs to aspire to offensively; Dahlin's offensive numbers are already better.

Doughty's career high in goals is 16. Dahlin has already had seasons of 15 and 20 (and pacing for 13+ this year despite missing time). Doughty's career high in points is 60, which would be considered a disappointment for Dahlin in any of his next 5 seasons (barring long-term injuries).

And Doughty was always surrounded by superior teams (except maybe a brief lapse in 2018-20), established talent, and he's averaged about 3 minutes more per game thus far in their careers.

When folks look back at their careers in 2050, there's a good chance Dahlin's offensive numbers put Doughty's to shame.

[DarthEbriate]

3 hours ago, JP51 said:

Quite honestly, less of an issue with Cozens, he at least gets pissed off when we lose.... Power and Muel are completely indicative of what this team is about... have the physical capability to play the game properly like real hockey players but not the will... they either hide or are injured at the first sign of contact... clearly based on management choosing them we see what they value in a skater... 

The sad part about Muel is once upon a time he was willing, and for a bit there was the most physical defenseman not named Lyubushkin. Perhaps even an inspiration to Dahlin's growth. But his body just cannot cash the checks, and worse, his brain now knows it and he plays accordingly.

[inkman]

18 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

I'd love to see Dahlin be a little more composed in close games when folks purposely try to get him off his game. Just face wash them and let it go from there; the refs will let that go.

But, I don't think Doughty is who you're thinking of as someone Dahlin needs to aspire to offensively; Dahlin's offensive numbers are already better.

Doughty's career high in goals is 16. Dahlin has already had seasons of 15 and 20 (and pacing for 13+ this year despite missing time). Doughty's career high in points is 60, which would be considered a disappointment for Dahlin in any of his next 5 seasons (barring long-term injuries).

And Doughty was always surrounded by superior teams (except maybe a brief lapse in 2018-20), established talent, and he's averaged about 3 minutes more per game thus far in their careers.

When folks look back at their careers in 2050, there's a good chance Dahlin's offensive numbers put Doughty's to shame.

Great. I guess we can hang our hat on that.  Winning games.  Not so much. 

[Jorcus]

On 1/13/2025 at 12:55 PM, JP51 said:

When I read Hamilton say that it is becoming apparent that Dahlin couldnt lead this team I immediately thought... get him a better team then... 

 

I am not sure of the context of that Hamilton quote but I remember hearing him a number of times last summer that Dahlin should be the captain. A lot of that was Hamilton's view of Dahlin in practice. Either way he is the captain and despite a number of issues of the what he does inside the context of a game he has not done anything nearly so bad to get demoted. Why create a new problem you don't need to. 

[thewookie1]

13 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

I'd love to see Dahlin be a little more composed in close games when folks purposely try to get him off his game. Just face wash them and let it go from there; the refs will let that go.

But, I don't think Doughty is who you're thinking of as someone Dahlin needs to aspire to offensively; Dahlin's offensive numbers are already better.

Doughty's career high in goals is 16. Dahlin has already had seasons of 15 and 20 (and pacing for 13+ this year despite missing time). Doughty's career high in points is 60, which would be considered a disappointment for Dahlin in any of his next 5 seasons (barring long-term injuries).

And Doughty was always surrounded by superior teams (except maybe a brief lapse in 2018-20), established talent, and he's averaged about 3 minutes more per game thus far in their careers.

When folks look back at their careers in 2050, there's a good chance Dahlin's offensive numbers put Doughty's to shame.

Dahlin has become more volatile since taking up the captaincy. He always had the occasional dumb penalty but its far more pronounced this season.

I get the sense he internalizes a lot of qualms he has with different things from team play to reffing. But now as captain he's in a pressure cooker and while he most certainly tries to keep a lid on it; there seems to be a specific point in which he snaps and just sees red. We could really use a vet defenseman with some knowledge that could give Dahlin some techniques for calming while mentoring Power

[JP51]

1 hour ago, Jorcus said:

 

I am not sure of the context of that Hamilton quote but I remember hearing him a number of times last summer that Dahlin should be the captain. A lot of that was Hamilton's view of Dahlin in practice. Either way he is the captain and despite a number of issues of the what he does inside the context of a game he has not done anything nearly so bad to get demoted. Why create a new problem you don't need to. 

I am with you... what he said specifically was Dahlin is incapable of leading this team.... my thought was then... put some real players around him. 

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

The sad part about Muel is once upon a time he was willing, and for a bit there was the most physical defenseman not named Lyubushkin. Perhaps even an inspiration to Dahlin's growth. But his body just cannot cash the checks, and worse, his brain now knows it and he plays accordingly.

I honestly think you are right he is playing not to get injured... he was one I had really high hopes for... then... well... you see it... 

[JP51]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

Dahlin has become more volatile since taking up the captaincy. He always had the occasional dumb penalty but its far more pronounced this season.

I get the sense he internalizes a lot of qualms he has with different things from team play to reffing. But now as captain he's in a pressure cooker and while he most certainly tries to keep a lid on it; there seems to be a specific point in which he snaps and just sees red. We could really use a vet defenseman with some knowledge that could give Dahlin some techniques for calming while mentoring Power

desperately... that plays physical and actually plays... 

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, inkman said:

You call out every mediocre player on the Sabres vs our HOF in waiting franchise defenseman who someone managed to completely miss on a puck that he had dead to rights.  He needs to never make that mistake.  He also needs way better situational awareness.  Several times a game he does something that makes me ask if he understands fundamental hockey.  I’m genuinely curious. He makes the most difficult play almost exclusively. 

Lmfao. 

Yea our HoF defender lost to a HoF center. 

He doesn't do it several times a game. In fact he actually is excellent but you got him here, he got his pocket picked. Of course this play happens to every nhl defender at times but the difference is their teammates help. There's no mutual support on this team, it's a major problem. You know this play solely because it ended in a goal. 

I hope he gets traded. I can't imagine how good he'd be on a real team without Wilford coaching the defense. 

[JohnC]

29 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Lmfao. 

Yea our HoF defender lost to a HoF center. 

He doesn't do it several times a game. In fact he actually is excellent but you got him here, he got his pocket picked. Of course this play happens to every nhl defender at times but the difference is their teammates help. There's no mutual support on this team, it's a major problem. You know this play solely because it ended in a goal. 

I hope he gets traded. I can't imagine how good he'd be on a real team without Wilford coaching the defense. 

My worry is that Dahlin gets so frustrated with the dismal situation he is in with this amateurishly run franchise that he demands to be traded, as like our other best players did. Being one of the better players in the league and never having the opportunity to participate in the playoffs certainly has to get him thinking about "what if" I was with a serious organization. 

[LTS]

19 hours ago, inkman said:

You call out every mediocre player on the Sabres vs our HOF in waiting franchise defenseman who someone managed to completely miss on a puck that he had dead to rights.  He needs to never make that mistake.  He also needs way better situational awareness.  Several times a game he does something that makes me ask if he understands fundamental hockey.  I’m genuinely curious. He makes the most difficult play almost exclusively. 

I suppose if this is your standard you will be disappointed by everyone, everywhere, every time.

Since you said you are genuinely curious about his understanding of fundamental hockey let's think of a situation, it can be any situation. There are 5 players of which one is Dahlin. In order for whatever "right" play is to happen, it requires that all 5 players (most of the time) execute with appropriate situational awareness and an understanding of what each of them is supposed to be doing. Let's say one player makes the wrong decision. This forces the other 4 players to either adjust to attempt to overcome that mistake or they can choose to cover their own position and let that mistake stand out. Nearly all players, if possible, will attempt to cover the mistake as that should, in theory, lower the negative outcome possibilities. However, overall, the chance of something negative happening has increased because one player did not do what they should. Extrapolate that to 2 or 3 players making mistakes and it gets worse.

If I were to take this to a football offense I would use the recognition of a blitz as an example. If the WRs don't recognize it and they all run a longer timed route then the QB is hosed. It takes everyone doing their thing to be successful.

Then, there are times when mistakes are made. It's that simple. They are not infallible humans, especially at the ages of 23/24. They are very good at hockey, but they are not perfect. No different than anyone who might be very good at what they do, they are not perfect.

 

[JP51]

12 hours ago, JohnC said:

My worry is that Dahlin gets so frustrated with the dismal situation he is in with this amateurishly run franchise that he demands to be traded, as like our other best players did. Being one of the better players in the league and never having the opportunity to participate in the playoffs certainly has to get him thinking about "what if" I was with a serious organization. 

I couldnt agree more, how long before Tuch, or Thompson or Dahlin etc... get frustrated wasting their prime with a team going no where... its a real concern... people are willing to go thru tough times if there is hope and light... but this is a dark and seemingly hopeless abyss unless major changes literally an eradication of the FO and a replacing with competence happens... if the Pegula is the GM and Adams is the mouthpiece people are right, there is no hope unless he sells... if its just nespotic choices by a bad owner and he decides to change then maybe there is... but its hard to see it right now... I can only imagine what they see on the inside... we are fans.. this is literally their careers... Now if we had Palm trees... things would clearly be different lol... 

Edited January 15 by JP51

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Not really fully Dahlins fault. He should not have been made captain. Not enough experience. He tries, but try is not enough anymore with this team. 

[JP51]

49 minutes ago, WhenWillItEnd66 said:

Not really fully Dahlins fault. He should not have been made captain. Not enough experience. He tries, but try is not enough anymore with this team. 

I agree this is a box you cant close once you opened it... unless you are trading him... I did think it was a lot of pressure inititally to put on him I was really thinking Tuch to get thru the transition to success... but as we see, there is no transition, only regression and little hope for improvement in the near future.

[LGR4GM]

57 minutes ago, WhenWillItEnd66 said:

Not really fully Dahlins fault. He should not have been made captain. Not enough experience. He tries, but try is not enough anymore with this team. 

Dahlin has played 471 games over a 7yr NHL career to date. 

[WhenWillItEnd66]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Dahlin has played 471 games over a 7yr NHL career to date. 

10 years NHL experience does not a leader make. LOL 7 even..... 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, WhenWillItEnd66 said:

10 years NHL experience does not a leader make. LOL 7 even..... 

That's fine if that's your argument but you said, he didn't "enough experience" and that's not true. You want to argue he isn't a good leader or what not, fine. But Rasmus Dahlin is a veteran NHL player at this point. 

[darksabre]

A leader is only as good as the people and tools at their disposal. I don't know how anyone can be stuck in the minutiae of whether Dahlin is a good leader or not when the roster is so lacking in ability and upper management sets a zero-effort example. Who is leading anything in that environment? 

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, darksabre said:

A leader is only as good as the people and tools at their disposal. I don't know how anyone can be stuck in the minutiae of whether Dahlin is a good leader or not when the roster is so lacking in ability and upper management sets a zero-effort example. Who is leading anything in that environment? 

 

On 11/17/2024 at 10:41 AM, Thorner said:

Where I disagree is the idea a “leader” would have the ability to siphon that mindset out of the rest of the team through sheer force of will. The Peca teams and the Briere teams weren’t the “youngest team in hockey”, were they? Or even close to? You can’t just look at the leader; you have to look at who you are asking them to lead.

We know the TALENT of a single player like Jack Eichel can’t elevate an entire team, there’s no reason to think the leadership quotient of one player could fare better. I don’t need to even argue that talent is more important than a sense of accountability: just that it’s as important.

The youngest team in the league, statistically, doesn’t make the playoffs. Bottom 10 spenders almost never make the playoffs. (Side note: You *don’t* think spending less than everyone would bear out, in most cases, in having less talent? Adams is so good that he’s equaling the talent of others teams with less money? That doesn’t pass the smell test.) We are both. Low spending and too young. Those teams don’t make the playoffs. 

Every one of those teams had a poor leader? Classic correlation / causation disagreement 

 

You said it 

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, JP51 said:

I couldnt agree more, how long before Tuch, or Thompson or Dahlin etc... get frustrated wasting their prime with a team going no where... its a real concern... people are willing to go thru tough times if there is hope and light... but this is a dark and seemingly hopeless abyss unless major changes literally an eradication of the FO and a replacing with competence happens... if the Pegula is the GM and Adams is the mouthpiece people are right, there is no hope unless he sells... if its just nespotic choices by a bad owner and he decides to change then maybe there is... but its hard to see it right now... I can only imagine what they see on the inside... we are fans.. this is literally their careers... Now if we had Palm trees... things would clearly be different lol... 

You don't have to be inside the organization to recognize gross incompetence. A generation of failure is more than enough sample size to make a judgment on this clownish bunch. 

[inkman]

7 hours ago, LTS said:

I suppose if this is your standard you will be disappointed by everyone, everywhere, every time.

Since you said you are genuinely curious about his understanding of fundamental hockey let's think of a situation, it can be any situation. There are 5 players of which one is Dahlin. In order for whatever "right" play is to happen, it requires that all 5 players (most of the time) execute with appropriate situational awareness and an understanding of what each of them is supposed to be doing. Let's say one player makes the wrong decision. This forces the other 4 players to either adjust to attempt to overcome that mistake or they can choose to cover their own position and let that mistake stand out. Nearly all players, if possible, will attempt to cover the mistake as that should, in theory, lower the negative outcome possibilities. However, overall, the chance of something negative happening has increased because one player did not do what they should. Extrapolate that to 2 or 3 players making mistakes and it gets worse.

If I were to take this to a football offense I would use the recognition of a blitz as an example. If the WRs don't recognize it and they all run a longer timed route then the QB is hosed. It takes everyone doing their thing to be successful.

Then, there are times when mistakes are made. It's that simple. They are not infallible humans, especially at the ages of 23/24. They are very good at hockey, but they are not perfect. No different than anyone who might be very good at what they do, they are not perfect.

 

I expect more from a first overall “generational” defenseman.  That’s always been his problem and now Owen is facing that.  These guys will never live up to their draft hype.  Ever.  

[inkman]

20 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Lmfao. 

Yea our HoF defender lost to a HoF center. 

He doesn't do it several times a game. In fact he actually is excellent but you got him here, he got his pocket picked. Of course this play happens to every nhl defender at times but the difference is their teammates help. There's no mutual support on this team, it's a major problem. You know this play solely because it ended in a goal. 

I hope he gets traded. I can't imagine how good he'd be on a real team without Wilford coaching the defense. 

I just want something, anything to hang my fan hat on.  Not a lot is being provided at the moment.  

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, inkman said:

I just want something, anything to hang my fan hat on.  Not a lot is being provided at the moment.  

Drafting 1st overall doesn't really do it anymore huh?

[steveoat87]

Not sure who the leaders are on the Sabres.  Don't think Dahlin is a leader.  I thought Tuch might be, but he seems very quiet.  Our most fiery players are Zucker and Krebs.  Like that they show passion.  Zucker might have leader qualities, but not sure he is a permanent piece.  A quandary!!

 

In the absence of clear leaders, wish we had the old Lindy rather than Yoda.

Edited January 15 by steveoat87

[inkman]

Making a difference 

 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

Making a difference 

 

By this logic, Connor Clifton is our best defender so... maybe there's a flaw.