Crusader1969 Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 9 hours ago, Carmel Corn said: He is still a defensive liability, especially in front of his own net. Bad decision making and absolutely zero aggression, which is not good for a top 4 defender. I’ll admit he made a nice offensive zone play, but that doesn’t offset his inability to shut down the opposition when trying to protect a lead. Here's a thought. Build a balanced D corps where he isn't out there trying to protect a lead. 1 Quote
Kristian Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 Trade Power before the league finds out how piss poor he is on D. 1 Quote
Archie Lee Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 (edited) 11 hours ago, JohnC said: The model for upgrading should be the Washington Capitals. Adding a few solid mid-range experienced players who round out the roster and provide veteran presence to an error prone young group. Adding a Zucker like player and a tough big fellow like Greenway, in addition to a veteran defensive defenseman, would make this roster thicker and tougher to play. Last offseason was the time for our timid GM to act. It's not an issue of being bold as it is about being smart about what your roster needs are and the resources $$$ required to get some beneficial deals done. Agreed. My Eastern model is the Caps and my West model is the Stars. When I look at their rosters I am convinced that a good GM, supported by a committed owner, could remake our roster in one offseason (and not dramatically) to the point where it could be a playoff team. I do think a change in coaching would also be needed. I’m not saying it would be finger-snapping easy, but it would be very doable. I don’t think it is in the cards though. The plan here is to wait on our youngest roster players to catch up to Thompson, Tuch, and Dahlin, and then to support them further with the next wave from Rochester and/or the 18 year old who we draft 6th OA and who wows everyone in camp. It seems almost as though Adams is afraid to try to win as once he fails while actually trying, then there are no more excuses. Edited January 8 by Archie Lee Quote
JohnC Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Archie Lee said: Agreed. My Eastern model is the Caps and my West model is the Stars. When I look at their rosters I am convinced that a good GM, supported by a committed owner, could remake our roster in one offseason (and not dramatically) to the point where it could be a playoff team. I do think a change in coaching would also be needed. I’m it saying it would be finger-snapping easy, but it would be very doable. I don’t think it is in the cards though. The plan here is to wait on our youngest roster players to catch up to Thompson, Tuch, and Dahlin, and then to support them further with the next wave from Rochester and/or the 18 year old who we draft 6th OA and who wows everyone in camp. It seems almost as though Adams is afraid to try to win as once he fails while actually trying, then there are no more excuses. There is not one NHL hockey analyst who would consider KA a good GM. Is the current owner committed? I don't know, he's not talking. How do you overcome this self-handcuffing situation? I don't know. Quote
Carmel Corn Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 8 hours ago, Crusader1969 said: Here's a thought. Build a balanced D corps where he isn't out there trying to protect a lead. So you don’t want an $8 million player out there when you are trying to protect a lead late in a game?!?! 2 hours ago, Kristian said: Trade Power before the league finds out how piss poor he is on D. If we all know this, so does the league!!! 1 1 Quote
Kristian Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 6 hours ago, Carmel Corn said: So you don’t want an $8 million player out there when you are trying to protect a lead late in a game?!?! If we all know this, so does the league!!! Nah, maybe the league thinks it’s a team thing. We can hope, right? 😂 Quote
Crusader1969 Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 (edited) 9 hours ago, Carmel Corn said: So you don’t want an $8 million player out there when you are trying to protect a lead late in a game?!?! If we all know this, so does the league!!! Why don't you give me a list of 22 year old (or younger) dmen in the world that you want out there defending a 1 goal lead? Edited January 8 by Crusader1969 Quote
DarthEbriate Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said: Why don't you give me a list of 22 year old (or younger) dmen in the world that you want out there defending a 1 goal lead? Can't give you the world, but there are only 28 defensemen who have played an NHL game this season at age 22 or under. Daemon Hunt, Logan Mailloux, Tristan Luneau, David Jiříček, Helge Grans, Denton Mateychuk, Seamus Casey, Lian Bichsel, Simon Nemec, Kevin Korchinski, Jack Thompson, Victor Mancini, Maveric Lamoureux, Owen Pickering, Emil Andrae, Isaiah George, Jamie Drysdale, Wyatt Kaiser, Pavel Mintyukov, Nolan Allan, Olen Zellweger, Luke Hughes, Simon Edvinsson, Brandt Clarke, Jake Sanderson, Lane Hutson, Owen Power, Brock Faber ---- I've bolded the short list that I would trust to get positioning and attempt to maintain it to give their goalie a chance, tie up a stick, battle or race for a loose puck, and get it out of the zone ahead of Power. Admittedly, many of them I simply haven't seen in action. The big question to ask is this: When they're all 23, age 24, and age 25, how many surpass Power defensively (plus any future incoming d-men)? Or does Power improve sufficiently to stay near the top of the list? Quote
ska-T Palmtown Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 I'd be happy to see either of them go if it was a Panthers-Flames, Huberdeau for Tkachuk type trade. Sadly, since neither is a Huberdeau, we are not likely to get a Tkachuk back. Double sadly, any player who desperately wants out of their current situation would probably sign a life-long extension before coming to the Sabers 😞 1 Quote
Crusader1969 Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 2 hours ago, DarthEbriate said: Can't give you the world, but there are only 28 defensemen who have played an NHL game this season at age 22 or under. Daemon Hunt, Logan Mailloux, Tristan Luneau, David Jiříček, Helge Grans, Denton Mateychuk, Seamus Casey, Lian Bichsel, Simon Nemec, Kevin Korchinski, Jack Thompson, Victor Mancini, Maveric Lamoureux, Owen Pickering, Emil Andrae, Isaiah George, Jamie Drysdale, Wyatt Kaiser, Pavel Mintyukov, Nolan Allan, Olen Zellweger, Luke Hughes, Simon Edvinsson, Brandt Clarke, Jake Sanderson, Lane Hutson, Owen Power, Brock Faber ---- I've bolded the short list that I would trust to get positioning and attempt to maintain it to give their goalie a chance, tie up a stick, battle or race for a loose puck, and get it out of the zone ahead of Power. Admittedly, many of them I simply haven't seen in action. The big question to ask is this: When they're all 23, age 24, and age 25, how many surpass Power defensively (plus any future incoming d-men)? Or does Power improve sufficiently to stay near the top of the list? I would assume that a player good at defence would be used on the penalty kill Luke Hughes. 1min of PK time Simon Edvinsson - 68 mins Brandt Clarke - 1 min Lane Hutson - 15 mins Brock Faber - 74 Mins Jake Sanderson - 83 mins for comparison Power had 72 mins killing penalties so far this season there is a reason why only 4 guys in the NHL, who are 22 or younger, have more than 20 mins killing penalties on the season Learning to play D takes time like holy *****, we just we through the same argument 3 years ago with Dahlin there is no reason to think, just like every other dman who ever played in the NHL, he will improve by the time he is 25 If he improves his D and stays about the same offensively, he will be one of the better 2nd pair dmen in the league If he improves both his D and his O progress further, he may be the best 2nd pair dman in the league 1 Quote
Carmel Corn Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 16 hours ago, Crusader1969 said: Why don't you give me a list of 22 year old (or younger) dmen in the world that you want out there defending a 1 goal lead? Sorry, but how many 22 year olds also make $8 million a year? Sure, we can all say GMKA is an idiot for making that deal. However, he needs to earn that $8 million, which he is not. How many $8 million dollar defensemen are out there who do NOT play when defending a 1 goal lead? Quote
Crusader1969 Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 18 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said: Sorry, but how many 22 year olds also make $8 million a year? Sure, we can all say GMKA is an idiot for making that deal. However, he needs to earn that $8 million, which he is not. How many $8 million dollar defensemen are out there who do NOT play when defending a 1 goal lead? lol. That's the dumbest argument of all time. Maybe he should have said no to the money? 1 Quote
Carmel Corn Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 30 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said: lol. That's the dumbest argument of all time. Maybe he should have said no to the money? Sorry, but you’re really not getting it…..paying $8 million for a defender who can’t defend (especially in tight games with a lead) is not a good situation. It’s that simple, but maybe it’s still too complicated for you. Quote
Crusader1969 Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 1 minute ago, Carmel Corn said: Sorry, but you’re really not getting it…..paying $8 million for a defender who can’t defend (especially in tight games with a lead) is not a good situation. It’s that simple, but maybe it’s still too complicated for you. Oh I get it. You want to discard him now because he isnt living up to his contract. I'm not giving up on him because he isn't playing like an $8 million defender at the age of 22. I understand he's getting paid more than he should be, hopefully one day he plays like an $11 million defender who is only getting paid $8 million plus; who cares what he is getting paid this year? One, it's not your money and second - the team is still way under the cap 1 Quote
DarthEbriate Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 14 hours ago, Crusader1969 said: I would assume that a player good at defence would be used on the penalty kill Luke Hughes. 1min of PK time Simon Edvinsson - 68 mins Brandt Clarke - 1 min Lane Hutson - 15 mins Brock Faber - 74 Mins Jake Sanderson - 83 mins for comparison Power had 72 mins killing penalties so far this season For the PK time, I'd argue that likely has much to do with roster construction and injuries than the trustworthiness of young defensemen, with the exceptions of Faber, who was a stud top-pair D from his first shift with the Wild and oddly, Sanderson, who leads Ottawa D in PK ATOI -- a surprise to me, but they love his speed for it. I'd think part of that usage is Zub missed 2/3 of the season so far so Sanderson took on many of those minutes, and now Hamonic is out, but it's still impressive for him. On the other end, Clarke doesn't get PK time, but really the only other guy who gets any PK time is Spence (0:54). LAK rolls out Gavrikov (3:27), Anderson (3:09), and Edmundson (2:17). If you aren't those three, HC Hiller doesn't skate you on the PK. Contrast that with the Sabres. Joker is often a healthy scratch, Muel has been on IR and healthy scratched, and Dahlin doesn't do much PK because he plays more than half of all PP time and over 20 minutes 5-on-5 every game. Muel and Clifton are the PK 1st pair, and after that it's Power and Byram because there really isn't anyone else. Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 Power and Byram are both lousy defensively. Power is worse because he flat out refuses to engage physically. Since they both produce about the same offensively, but I'm going to be able to re-sign Byram for less than 8 mill a season, I'm trading Power. It's really that simple. We don't need 3 offensive first LHD. We need one for the top pair (Dahlin) and one for the second pair (Byram). We need some RHD and Tallinder type players to partner with Byram and Dahlin. If I can move Power to help get partners for Byram and Dahlin, I'm making that deal right now. Quote
quill Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Power and Byram are both lousy defensively. Power is worse because he flat out refuses to engage physically. Since they both produce about the same offensively, but I'm going to be able to re-sign Byram for less than 8 mill a season, I'm trading Power. It's really that simple. We don't need 3 offensive first LHD. We need one for the top pair (Dahlin) and one for the second pair (Byram). We need some RHD and Tallinder type players to partner with Byram and Dahlin. If I can move Power to help get partners for Byram and Dahlin, I'm making that deal right now. I think it would be a mistake to move a defenseman like Power with the talent he's showing at the age of 22. He's barely started to develop at the NHL level and, other than Dahlin, he's already the best puck moving defenseman we have. Plus he's a major offensive threat and will only get better. No team would want Power because he's such a hard hitting body slammer, which he is not, but more than a few teams would grab him for his ability to carry the puck up the ice and for his offensive talents as well. As long as Power is paired with a physical defenseman like Clifton for the time being, with time he will get more and more used to the physical play at the NHL level. Our defensive problems as a team have been just as much the fault of quite a few of our forwards who have been terrible in the defensive zone for most of this season. Having said that, we could definitely use another defenseman like Connor Clifton who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty. Maybe Power will even chip in with a few body checks himself by the time he turns the ripe old age of 23. Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 13 minutes ago, quill said: I think it would be a mistake to move a defenseman like Power with the talent he's showing at the age of 22. He's barely started to develop at the NHL level and, other than Dahlin, he's already the best puck moving defenseman we have. Plus he's a major offensive threat and will only get better. No team would want Power because he's such a hard hitting body slammer, which he is not, but more than a few teams would grab him for his ability to carry the puck up the ice and for his offensive talents as well. As long as Power is paired with a physical defenseman like Clifton for the time being, with time he will get more and more used to the physical play at the NHL level. Our defensive problems as a team have been just as much the fault of quite a few of our forwards who have been terrible in the defensive zone for most of this season. Having said that, we could definitely use another defenseman like Connor Clifton who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty. Maybe Power will even chip in with a few body checks himself by the time he turns the ripe old age of 23. We can no longer wait until he develops some D skills at 25. We need to win now with the core we built. Byram gives us exactly what Power does. Same upside offensively and the same development needed defensively except he is willing to try defensively which Power isn’t. Time to move on and get other pieces we need for a redundant but value player. Quote
inkman Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 Power’s upside is enormous. He could be a Norris trophy candidate in a few years. The Sabres can’t wait. Take that potential and sell the ***** out of it. Go get Brady Tkachuk or Ellias Pettersson. He’s the piece that’ll get them. Byram is a classic offensively gifted dman. Not a 6’6” dream boat of elbows and knees. Bo can fit into any top 4 D pair. Play respectable minutes and be a part of your team success. The Sabres don’t need Power. They have Dahlin and Byram to carry the load. Supplement some stay at home crease clearing open ice smashing men that’ll rattle some teeth and be done with it. Why are they even ***** around with him. 1 Quote
quill Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 If the goal is to start winning now, which is what it should be, then there are better choices besides Byram or Power to move for an established veteran who can help us right now. Maybe "Long Term: Byram or Power" should be "Long Term: Byram and Power" instead. Trade someone who doesn't look like they love playing NHL hockey like #22, and if you're really looking for a Dman to move then package Bryson along with 22. Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 13 minutes ago, quill said: If the goal is to start winning now, which is what it should be, then there are better choices besides Byram or Power to move for an established veteran who can help us right now. Maybe "Long Term: Byram or Power" should be "Long Term: Byram and Power" instead. Trade someone who doesn't look like they love playing NHL hockey like #22, and if you're really looking for a Dman to move then package Bryson along with 22. The problem is Power or Byram need to anchoring their own pairing. Neither should be paired with each other or Dahlin. So do really want to be paying Power $8 to be a 3rd pairing D? How is that going to help his development? This stupid Adams experiment of 3 scoring D to push offense has already failed because his precious offensive defenders can’t defend and there isn’t enough PP time to go around. This claw was obvious the day Adams acquired Byram and we have been living with the fallout ever since of a lack of centers of offense and terrible D play on defense. Time to end the experiment. Quote
quill Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: The problem is Power or Byram need to anchoring their own pairing. Neither should be paired with each other or Dahlin. So do really want to be paying Power $8 to be a 3rd pairing D? How is that going to help his development? This stupid Adams experiment of 3 scoring D to push offense has already failed because his precious offensive defenders can’t defend and there isn’t enough PP time to go around. This claw was obvious the day Adams acquired Byram and we have been living with the fallout ever since of a lack of centers of offense and terrible D play on defense. Time to end the experiment. I agree neither one of them should ever be paired with each other or Dahlin. Like I said earlier, Power should be paired with someone like Clifton. I also said earlier that I like both of Power and Byram, but we shouldn't forget that Byram could be one more bump on the head away from retirement. Quote
Carmel Corn Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 6 hours ago, Crusader1969 said: Oh I get it. You want to discard him now because he isnt living up to his contract. I'm not giving up on him because he isn't playing like an $8 million defender at the age of 22. I understand he's getting paid more than he should be, hopefully one day he plays like an $11 million defender who is only getting paid $8 million plus; who cares what he is getting paid this year? One, it's not your money and second - the team is still way under the cap You’re right…..it’s not my money. But as most of us just ordinary sports fans, it’s not unreasonable to expect our team ownership and management to spend to the cap in order to maximize the chance of being competitive. Not every dollar spent is worth is, as in the case of young Power….but it should be spent as a reasonable expectation. And yes, I do favor discarding him now IF the return makes us better today vs. 3 years from now. Quote
Crusader1969 Posted January 10 Report Posted January 10 7 hours ago, DarthEbriate said: For the PK time, I'd argue that likely has much to do with roster construction and injuries than the trustworthiness of young defensemen, with the exceptions of Faber, who was a stud top-pair D from his first shift with the Wild and oddly, Sanderson, who leads Ottawa D in PK ATOI -- a surprise to me, but they love his speed for it. I'd think part of that usage is Zub missed 2/3 of the season so far so Sanderson took on many of those minutes, and now Hamonic is out, but it's still impressive for him. On the other end, Clarke doesn't get PK time, but really the only other guy who gets any PK time is Spence (0:54). LAK rolls out Gavrikov (3:27), Anderson (3:09), and Edmundson (2:17). If you aren't those three, HC Hiller doesn't skate you on the PK. Contrast that with the Sabres. Joker is often a healthy scratch, Muel has been on IR and healthy scratched, and Dahlin doesn't do much PK because he plays more than half of all PP time and over 20 minutes 5-on-5 every game. Muel and Clifton are the PK 1st pair, and after that it's Power and Byram because there really isn't anyone else. I think that's been my point from the beginning. Adams has assembled a piss poor 7/8 man D unit I've said it before and I'll say it again. it's a crime that Adams hasn't found a vet stay at home partner for Power 2 Quote
Crusader1969 Posted January 10 Report Posted January 10 4 hours ago, inkman said: Power’s upside is enormous. He could be a Norris trophy candidate in a few years. The Sabres can’t wait. Take that potential and sell the ***** out of it. Go get Brady Tkachuk or Ellias Pettersson. He’s the piece that’ll get them. Byram is a classic offensively gifted dman. Not a 6’6” dream boat of elbows and knees. Bo can fit into any top 4 D pair. Play respectable minutes and be a part of your team success. The Sabres don’t need Power. They have Dahlin and Byram to carry the load. Supplement some stay at home crease clearing open ice smashing men that’ll rattle some teeth and be done with it. Why are they even ***** around with him. I hate to break this to you but if you trade any of Byram, Dahlin or Power you won't be winning many games at all we already saw what happened when Dahlin went out. I guarantee a d line up of Jokiharju, Bryson, Clifton and Samuelsson is getting rolled each and every night 4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said: The problem is Power or Byram need to anchoring their own pairing. Neither should be paired with each other or Dahlin. So do really want to be paying Power $8 to be a 3rd pairing D? How is that going to help his development? This stupid Adams experiment of 3 scoring D to push offense has already failed because his precious offensive defenders can’t defend and there isn’t enough PP time to go around. This claw was obvious the day Adams acquired Byram and we have been living with the fallout ever since of a lack of centers of offense and terrible D play on defense. Time to end the experiment. Totally disagree. The pairing of Dahlin and Byram is everything you want on a top pair except age / experience Quote
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