Is "accountability" even possible in the Sabres organization?

[Big Guava]

Can't be because the owner is essentially trying to run this team on a budget, so there is no commitment from the top to win.

I mean, they still draft pretty freaking well considering they only do video scouting now but that has to show up somewhere in terms of not getting the right mix of players.

Edited Monday at 03:34 PM by Big Guava

[WhenWillItEnd66]

No. That is all.

[SabreFinn]

Luukkonen was interviewed by a finnish NHL writer  with questions about Sabres and this losing streak. On a question if players demand accountability from each other, Luukkonens answer was that you can't ask for accountability from teammates if you don't ask it from yourself.

Reading between the lines, Luukkonen was pissed off.

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, eanyills said:

I don’t understand this point. There isn’t a US team that isn’t “second rate” in their own city. No American NHL team is the top dog in their city.

The point is about accountability and the Sabres fly under the radar and are not really held accountable. Do you disagree with that? 

Yes, other cities have NFL teams, and maybe those teams cities would react exactly the same way Buffalo is towards TP, but I doubt it, Maybe a rustbelt city like Detroit or Pittsburg would, but if Terry owned the Rangers and they were this bad I can't imagine a crap storm would not ensue. Here we just get ready for the draft. 

 

 We are a one newspaper town and the Sabre media just seems owned and operated by TP inc. There is little to no accountability demanded from the media 

[JP51]

20 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not true. The fact that they still have ANY fans is a testament to how strong of a hockey town it really is. I remember the glory days. I remember how long the lines at the border were on Sabres game nights (great nights for sneaking duty free across the border, just wear a Sabres jersey and line up). 

There is no American city where hockey is bigger than football. NFL rules in the sports world. Even in a sports city like Boston with an original six team the Bruins are behind the Pats, Celtics and Red Sox. Only in Canada does hockey reign supreme. 

Now having said that, to the question, no, in the current situation accountability is next to impossible. Without people in that locker room demanding it from their team mates it's impossible. There is nothing a coach can do as there is no one to bring in if you sit someone. I mean what has Quinn done to be back in the line up? Nothing. But who you going to replace him with? Call up Rosen? There's no answer with this roster. 

This is why I say we need a bunch of guys who hate to lose that will thump their own team mates if necessary. I think the Dahlin Krebs incident was actually a good thing, and around that time we were showing signs of becoming a hockey team, but it wasn't enough and there weren't enough guys to keep that going and so now we are in the spiral again and everybody's quitting. 

I will go one further... make a change... a solid and significant one in the front office and watch the hope re assert itself almost immediately... I think when you feel helpless and that nothing will change you get angry or apathetic or exceedingly negative... throw some prospect for hope and change in there... and watch what happens in this town... 

[Dreams Burn Down]

4 hours ago, Cage said:

That's a really surprising take from someone with Bob Sauve as his handle???

I'd put the tandem of Don Edwards and Bob Sauve behind only Hasek and Miller as the best this franchise ever had.  Look up games one and two of the first round in 1983 when Sauve put on a clinic in The Forum in Montreal.

[bunomatic]

2 hours ago, Big Guava said:

Can't be because the owner is essentially trying to run this team on a budget, so there is no commitment from the top to win.

I mean, they still draft pretty freaking well considering they only do video scouting now but that has to show up somewhere in terms of not getting the right mix of players.

Yeah the right mix is on KA. He literally ships out players in positions of need for players of the style that we have too many of already. Example Casey for Bo.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, JP51 said:

I will go one further... make a change... a solid and significant one in the front office and watch the hope re assert itself almost immediately... I think when you feel helpless and that nothing will change you get angry or apathetic or exceedingly negative... throw some prospect for hope and change in there... and watch what happens in this town... 

I think they've waited too long. The season is over no matter what you do now. 

[JP51]

9 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think they've waited too long. The season is over no matter what you do now. 

Oh I think honestly the next year is over too but people just need some hope

[Cage]

19 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

The point is about accountability and the Sabres fly under the radar and are not really held accountable. Do you disagree with that? 

Yes, other cities have NFL teams, and maybe those teams cities would react exactly the same way Buffalo is towards TP, but I doubt it, Maybe a rustbelt city like Detroit or Pittsburg would, but if Terry owned the Rangers and they were this bad I can't imagine a crap storm would not ensue. Here we just get ready for the draft. 

 

 We are a one newspaper town and the Sabre media just seems owned and operated by TP inc. There is little to no accountability demanded from the media 

In these threads people keep using the word "accountable".... I'm not sure what that really means??  For fans, we can turn off the team and ice them out of our attention span.  Don't attend games, don't buy merch....  The local media hasn't exactly been love-festing over the team.  Suppose they could be harsher, but not sure what that would change?

For the team, they can fire Ruff, fire Adams or get rid of players.  This is where it where, to me, it gets very perplexing.  

When looked at individually, Adams has made a lot of moves that we would probably agree with in isolation.  I'll keep it at a high-level, but we can go into details as well.  First he wanted to build the team around players who wanted to be Buffalo Sabres.  I think we can all agree with that concept.  The Bills would do the same thing.  Beane just took a huge cap hit to get rid of Diggs.  So he traded frustrated players (Eichel, Reinhart, Risto) and got reasonable trade compensation for them.  He got a lot of first round draft capital, Tuch (who clearly was happy to come here) and Levi (we needed a top G prospect)

He's drafted well.  We're still the youngest team in the league.  Sabres prospect pipeline is routinely ranked in the top 5.  Not just the first round picks, but taking chances on good Russian players who are developing and he got at multi-round discounts.  He knew to trade up for Peterka.  Most every GM would hav picked Owen Power #1 overall (and he's still young).  They've forced most players to be successful on Amerks before progressing.  Amerks are stocked with developing draft picks who are growing as we should expect.

He's been careful, but taking reasonable risks on handing out long-term contracts.  While we might 20:20 hindsight some of those, the long-term signings for Thompson (nearly 50 goal scorer), Cozens (30 goal scorer at the time), Samuelsson (strong young D for $4m/), Dahlin are moves most GMs would have done as well.  He's being careful with cap space as he had been expecting that Quinn, Byrum, Peterka, maybe Krebs would continue to grow and he would need the space to resign them.

He also was creative in solving long-standing G issue.  He didn't give up on UPL, got top prospect in Levi and took a shot at an emerging possibility in Comrie.  While Comrie didn't work out, he was thinking about the issue the same way as Beane may have when he signed as yet unknowns like Poyer and Hyde some years ago.  

As much as people liked Granato, the players needed "accountability" (there's that word again), so he brings back Ruff, which seems like a sound move at the time.

Obviously all of this hasn't progressed as planned, but I don't see large-scale defect in the thinking that we would expect from a GM.  I honestly am stuck with where the problem is with this team??  They should be like last year's Houston Texans or two years ago's Detroit Lions and be on the rise with the rest of the league nervous about playing them.  If that was the case, the stands would be full.... the Bills notwithstanding.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:39 PM by Cage

[LGR4GM]

29 minutes ago, Cage said:

In these threads people keep using the word "accountable".... I'm not sure what that really means??  For fans, we can turn off the team and ice them out of our attention span.  Don't attend games, don't buy merch....  The local media hasn't exactly been love-festing over the team.  Suppose they could be harsher, but not sure what that would change?

For the team, they can fire Ruff, fire Adams or get rid of players.  This is where it where, to me, it gets very perplexing.  

When looked at individually, Adams has made a lot of moves that we would probably agree with in isolation.  I'll keep it at a high-level, but we can go into details as well.  First he wanted to build the team around players who wanted to be Buffalo Sabres.  I think we can all agree with that concept.  The Bills would do the same thing.  Beane just took a huge cap hit to get rid of Diggs.  So he traded frustrated players (Eichel, Reinhart, Risto) and got reasonable trade compensation for them.  He got a lot of first round draft capital, Tuch (who clearly was happy to come here) and Levi (we needed a top G prospect)

He's drafted well.  We're still the youngest team in the league.  Sabres prospect pipeline is routinely ranked in the top 5.  Not just the first round picks, but taking chances on good Russian players who are developing and he got at multi-round discounts.  He knew to trade up for Peterka.  Most every GM would hav picked Owen Power #1 overall (and he's still young).  They've forced most players to be successful on Amerks before progressing.  Amerks are stocked with developing draft picks who are growing as we should expect.

He's been careful, but taking reasonable risks on handing out long-term contracts.  While we might 20:20 hindsight some of those, the long-term signings for Thompson (nearly 50 goal scorer), Cozens (30 goal scorer at the time), Samuelsson (strong young D for $4m/), Dahlin are moves most GMs would have done as well.  He's being careful with cap space as he had been expecting that Quinn, Byrum, Peterka, maybe Krebs would continue to grow and he would need the space to resign them.

He also was creative in solving long-standing G issue.  He didn't give up on UPL, got top prospect in Levi and took a shot at an emerging possibility in Comrie.  While Comrie didn't work out, he was thinking about the issue the same way as Beane may have when he signed as yet unknowns like Poyer and Hyde some years ago.  

As much as people liked Granato, the players needed "accountability" (there's that word again), so he brings back Ruff, which seems like a sound move at the time.

Obviously all of this hasn't progressed as planned, but I don't see large-scale defect in the thinking that we would expect from a GM.  I honestly am stuck with where the problem is with this team??  They should be like last year's Houston Texans or two years ago's Detroit Lions and be on the rise with the rest of the league nervous about playing them.  If that was the case, the stands would be full.... the Bills notwithstanding.

 

He gets 0 credit for goalie prospect situation. He could have in the same summer kept Reinhart and drafted Wallstedt. Instead he bridges Reinhart again and then trades him for magic beans. 

There is 0 gms in the entire league who would have signed Samuelsson to that deal. It was awful. 

This is all excuses for why Adams in 5, count them 5 years of crap doesn't have a playoff team. He's a bad gm and this post actually proves it. 

The Sabres have 2 Russian prospects of interest and their drafting (looking at 2022) has been okay but not great. Carolina is what great looks like. 

Trading for Byram is still bizarre. "Saving" cap isn't a thing. His "want to be here" stance is mind numbingly stupid. Players want to win. 

The Ruff move didn't seem sound at the time. He didn't even conduct a search. They did it to sell tickets. 

The more I read this post the angrier I get. What nonsense, Adams is a failure, Ruff is a failure, the team is a failure, and Terry Pegula is the worst owner in the NHL.

Edited Tuesday at 12:48 PM by LGR4GM

[Cage]

25 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He gets 0 credit for goalie prospect situation. He could have in the same summer kept Reinhart and drafted Wallstedt. Instead he bridges Reinhart again and then trades him for magic beans. 

There is 0 gms in the entire league who would have signed Samuelsson to that deal. It was awful. 

This is all excuses for why Adams in 5, count them 5 years of crap doesn't have a playoff team. He's a bad gm and this post actually proves it. 

Much of that reaction is 20:20 hindsight.  

When Adams took over the team, they were a last place Kreuger-mess up against the salary cap.  There was a lot to fix.  he wanted to start with the culture of having players who "want to be Buffalo Sabres". If Reinhart was not on-board with a rebuild and wanted to leave, what should he have done?  Violated is first credo right out of the chute?  Credibility with the team instantly goes to 0, if he backtracks on that statement and forces Reinhart to stay.  Who also wasn't far from UFA status..  He got Kulich and Levi for him.  It's not far-fetched to see Kulich as a 30+ goal scorer and Levi as a starting G.  They have to continue to develop.

Samuelsson reaction is also 20:20.  He was a leader on Amerks, to D pair and had played well in NHL leading up to that point.  He's expecting continued growth from a young guy, who can still attain that and make that contract look cheap.  "0 gas in the entire league" is just a wild reaction

Edited Tuesday at 01:09 PM by Cage

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Cage said:

Much of that reaction is 20:20 hindsight.  

When Adams took over the team, they were a last place Kreuger-mess up against the salary cap.  There was a lot to fix.  he wanted to start with the culture of having players who "want to be Buffalo Sabres". If Reinhart was not on-board with a rebuild and wanted to leave, what should he have done?  Violated is first credo right out of the chute?  Credibility with the team instantly goes to 0, if he backtracks on that statement and forces Reinhart to stay.  Who also wasn't far from UFA status..  He got Kulich and Levi for him.  It's not far-fetched to see Kulich as a 30+ goal scorer and Levi as a starting G.  They have to continue to develop.

Samuelsson reaction is also 20:20.  He was a leader on Amerks, to D pair and had played well in NHL leading up to that point.  He's expecting continued growth from a young guy, who can still attain that and make that contract look cheap.  "0 gas in the entire league" is just a wild reaction

The Sabres are in what? 31st 32nd in the league and you're arguing Adams fixed something? What did he fix? 

Instead of a culture of "what to be in Buffalo" he should have focused on "actually good at hockey". Also who gives a ***** of Levi some day some time becomes a starter and Kulich some day is a 30g scorer? In the 4 years since that trade Reinhart won a cup and is a 50g scorer. Great in another 3 years we might have something... only took 7 more seasons of losing! Victory. 

No ***** gm with a brain would have signed a 3rd pair defender with 58 total nhl games to a 7 year deal worth over 4 million. Also who gives a flying ***** if in year 6 of that deal is a "steal"? For the first 3 it's been terrible. 

Excuses is all I hear. Adams is a failure. 

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, Cage said:

Much of that reaction is 20:20 hindsight.  

When Adams took over the team, they were a last place Kreuger-mess up against the salary cap.  There was a lot to fix.  he wanted to start with the culture of having players who "want to be Buffalo Sabres". If Reinhart was not on-board with a rebuild and wanted to leave, what should he have done?  Violated is first credo right out of the chute?  Credibility with the team instantly goes to 0, if he backtracks on that statement and forces Reinhart to stay.  Who also wasn't far from UFA status..  He got Kulich and Levi for him.  It's not far-fetched to see Kulich as a 30+ goal scorer and Levi as a starting G.  They have to continue to develop.

Samuelsson reaction is also 20:20.  He was a leader on Amerks, to D pair and had played well in NHL leading up to that point.  He's expecting continued growth from a young guy, who can still attain that and make that contract look cheap.  "0 gas in the entire league" is just a wild reaction

lol go check the samuelsson thread and read my response to see if it’s only a sketchy deal in hindsight 

[Cage]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The Sabres are in what? 31st 32nd in the league and you're arguing Adams fixed something? What did he fix? 

Instead of a culture of "what to be in Buffalo" he should have focused on "actually good at hockey". Also who gives a ***** of Levi some day some time becomes a starter and Kulich some day is a 30g scorer? In the 4 years since that trade Reinhart won a cup and is a 50g scorer. Great in another 3 years we might have something... only took 7 more seasons of losing! Victory. 

No ***** gm with a brain would have signed a 3rd pair defender with 58 total nhl games to a 7 year deal worth over 4 million. Also who gives a flying ***** if in year 6 of that deal is a "steal"? For the first 3 it's been terrible. 

Excuses is all I hear. Adams is a failure. 

....sooooooo, what should they do??

[Thorner]

The whole thing is being presented backwards again. We have seen the results: they are in fact very bad under Adams, league relative, for a long period of time. That’s the actual, objective standings based result, the “answer” if you will. We can work backwards to see where management went wrong

we are still projecting out a “who could have expected it to be bad?” mindset based on a *personally biased* analysis of the work Adams did through the prism of the moment. We don’t need to do that: we have the actual results 

Edited Tuesday at 01:29 PM by Thorner

[bob_sauve28]

8 minutes ago, Cage said:

....sooooooo, what should they do??

Same thing we always do. Trade away all these young players we have just as they are hitting their prime and start another rebuild, of course!

 

 

[Stoner]

Accountability won't exist as long as enough customers will be fooled by a better second half, which is surely to come. You can see in the last two games the team has started to pick it up.

Selling hope is what this franchise does well.

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, Stoner said:

Accountability won't exist as long as enough customers will be fooled by a better second half, which is surely to come. You can see in the last two games the team has started to pick it up.

Selling hope is what this franchise does well.

Not only in aspiration but in mechanics, as well. The only possible plan of action should we change GMs is another long form rebuild, of course

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, Cage said:

Much of that reaction is 20:20 hindsight.  

When Adams took over the team, they were a last place Kreuger-mess up against the salary cap.  There was a lot to fix.  he wanted to start with the culture of having players who "want to be Buffalo Sabres". If Reinhart was not on-board with a rebuild and wanted to leave, what should he have done?  Violated is first credo right out of the chute?  Credibility with the team instantly goes to 0, if he backtracks on that statement and forces Reinhart to stay.  Who also wasn't far from UFA status..  He got Kulich and Levi for him.  It's not far-fetched to see Kulich as a 30+ goal scorer and Levi as a starting G.  They have to continue to develop.

Samuelsson reaction is also 20:20.  He was a leader on Amerks, to D pair and had played well in NHL leading up to that point.  He's expecting continued growth from a young guy, who can still attain that and make that contract look cheap.  "0 gas in the entire league" is just a wild reaction

Solid posts. Thanks for bringing some topics up for discussion.
 

No GM in major-league sports is judged on the “seemed like a good idea at the time” rule. They are judged on outcomes. Adams is trying to thread a needle. He is likely hampered by (charitably) a tight-fisted owner. But his attempt to simultaneously put a playoff team on the ice (his commitment, not mine), while also hoarding futures and not acquiring any older veterans who would require term, has simply been a complete and monumental failure. 

The Sabres had 8 players under 24 on their roster last night. They have used 12 this year. Anaheim and Chicago both have 7 under 24 players on their roster and have used 10 on the year. San Jose: 6 on the roster and 9 for the year. Adams needs to pick a lane. Are we in year 4 of his ongoing rebuild?  Or are we legitimately trying to make the playoffs?  Right now he is failing at both and has created an unholy mess. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Cage said:

....sooooooo, what should they do??

Fire Adams and the entire coaching staff with the exception of Bales to start. 

5 years of being bad and you're in here defending Adams. It's breathtaking. He's been GM for 2 of 3 Sabres 13 game losing streaks. He needs to be fired and an adult with actual brains brought in. Howdy Doody's palm trees and want to be here act has worn thin. 

5 years. 0 playoffs. 1 top 6 forward brought in via trade. The dude is incompetent. 

[Thorner]

Howdy Doody is catching on 

[bob_sauve28]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Fire Adams and the entire coaching staff with the exception of Bales to start. 

5 years of being bad and you're in here defending Adams. It's breathtaking. He's been GM for 2 of 3 Sabres 13 game losing streaks. He needs to be fired and an adult with actual brains brought in. Howdy Doody's palm trees and want to be here act has worn thin. 

5 years. 0 playoffs. 1 top 6 forward brought in via trade. The dude is incompetent. 

I would bet that does not happen. Terry is sleeping sound somewhere with a "do not disturb" sign on the door.

[Archie Lee]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Fire Adams and the entire coaching staff with the exception of Bales to start. 

5 years of being bad and you're in here defending Adams. It's breathtaking. He's been GM for 2 of 3 Sabres 13 game losing streaks. He needs to be fired and an adult with actual brains brought in. Howdy Doody's palm trees and want to be here act has worn thin. 

5 years. 0 playoffs. 1 top 6 forward brought in via trade. The dude is incompetent. 

I don’t agree with the “5 years of being bad”. The last two seasons, in my view, could be viewed as reasonable outcomes for a team that entered a tear down in 2020 (not trying to convince anyone to see it this way). There is a big-picture Sabres dysfunction element that Adams has become part of, to be certain. But there were moments the last two off-seasons where this could have gone a different direction and he could have made moves that would have positioned us to be a playoff team and chose not to. The lack of urgency that he has shown when it comes to putting an end to this ridiculous streak, is galling to me. 

[DarthEbriate]

9 minutes ago, Thorner said:

Howdy Doody is catching on 

To me, he's royalty GM Sheevyn Palmsmatine.