What would you trade for Elias Petterson?

[Pimlach]

This thread keeps providing reasons to NOT trade for this guy. 

First it’s his performance that is falling, then it’s relationships, next he is considered a soft player,  plus he has a huge contract, and now he has a chronic knee injury that takes away speed.   No on acquiring this guy.   

The Sabres cannot afford to blow trades involving their better assets.  They just cannot ship out guys like Byram, or even Cozens, for a hope and a prayer.  If this guys fades away we are stuck with another bad contract.  

This guy is Jeff Skinner with a bad knee.  

No Pettersson please. 

[Stoner]

So, no Petterson?

[Weave]

22 minutes ago, Stoner said:

So, no Petterson?

We have no room for a ….. yada yada yada….

[Pimlach]

20 minutes ago, Stoner said:

So, no Petterson?

I am in the minority here but there are red flags all over the place.  

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

We have no room for a ….. yada yada yada….

We have room, but is he the right kind of player to help turn this program around?  
 

Vancouver is regretting the deal, maybe we should take heed.  

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

This thread keeps providing reasons to NOT trade for this guy. 

First it’s his performance that is falling, then it’s relationships, next he is considered a soft player,  plus he has a huge contract, and now he has a chronic knee injury that takes away speed.   No on acquiring this guy.   

The Sabres cannot afford to blow trades involving their better assets.  They just cannot ship out guys like Byram, or even Cozens, for a hope and a prayer.  If this guys fades away we are stuck with another bad contract.  

This guy is Jeff Skinner with a bad knee.  

No Pettersson please. 

The knee injury the issue for the drop in production is the #1, and quite honestly the only reason why I would consider not taking him on.

I don't know much about that injury, is it something that will heal over time or is it an issue long term?  Is it something that you make a trade for him, shut him down for the rest of the year, and it can heal after having 6+ months off?

If there is a chance it is a long term thing and it has been bothering him since his productoin as dropped, then yeah....stay away from him and that contract.

I just checked out NHL edge..and the numbers are fun but they don't give you a complete picture..however as far as what they show for skating:

-This year: Top skating speed: 21.58 (bottom half of the league)

-Last year: 22.48 (1mph is a BIG difference)

-2022-23:  23.31 (top 5% in the league)

-2021-22: 22.25

So, this year, at least his single instance of top skating speed, is much lower than it was last year and WAAAYYY lower than it was 2 years ago.

As far as him being a soft player, I don't get that. I dont' watch every Vancouver game, but I have probably seen 10-20 over the last few years and I just don't get where he is a soft player.  He doesn't throw thundering hits or fight guys, but he does take the body, he blocks shots, he doesn't shy away from the front of the net, he doesn't even avoid scrums.  

I keep on asking this and no one is giving me an answer....how is he a 'soft' player?

Edited 7 hours ago by mjd1001

[CallawaySabres]

Some of the guys on NHL Network were saying that if we gave up Cozens and Byrum for this guy, Vancouver should be ecstatic. 

[mjd1001]

2 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

Some of the guys on NHL Network were saying that if we gave up Cozens and Byrum for this guy, Vancouver should be ecstatic. 

They don't know Cozen's game all that well then.

Or maybe they are just thinking Cozens is Bad, and Pettersson is damaged goods....so the simple fact that there is ONE potentially good player in this deal (Byram) and he is going to Vancouver....so that is why they would be ecstatic.

Vancouver gives the Sabres very expensive 'damaged goods', Buffalo gives Vancouver a 'somewhat expensive' bad hockey player....but Buffalo also gives a pretty good D-man. All that = Vancouver being VERY happy getting the one good piece.

[inkman]

26 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I am in the minority here but there are red flags all over the place.  

We have room, but is he the right kind of player to help turn this program around?  
 

Vancouver is regretting the deal, maybe we should take heed.  

Unless we have players that are in almost identical situations.  See Dylan Cozens.  If he’s the centerpiece of the deal, make it happen.  He clearly is either in his own head and may never figure it out here or he got his brain so scrambled in that fight or is such a ***** that one fight has turned him into Derek Roy.  

14 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

Some of the guys on NHL Network were saying that if we gave up Cozens and Byrum for this guy, Vancouver should be ecstatic. 

It’s ***** bizarre that the leagues own network has analysts using internet rumors for content.  Like is that really all you have to talk about?  

[Weave]

29 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I am in the minority here but there are red flags all over the place.  

We have room, but is he the right kind of player to help turn this program around?  
 

Vancouver is regretting the deal, maybe we should take heed.  

I habe no emotional attachment to getting, or not getting, Petterson.  My only take is, every player has warts, including the one(s) we would be sending the other way.  I have to depend on people in the industry to make the decision regarding whether or not Pettersons warts are either temporary or less impactful than the warts we would be sending back.  I am not really in a position to know these things, and I don’t care to speculate about it.

What I do know is, this team needs substantial change and a blockbuster trade like a Petterson deal would certainly bring that.  I 100% support the concept of a Petterson trade, minus the things I can’t know in the details.

Even KA has a better sense of the value of the warts than I do.  Another low bar I suppose, but its what I’ve got.

[Porous Five Hole]

45 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I am in the minority here but there are red flags all over the place.  

We have room, but is he the right kind of player to help turn this program around?  
 

Vancouver is regretting the deal, maybe we should take heed.  

Honestly this is message board and twitter culture.  And you got a whole lot of people who don’t watch the Canucks, don’t look at advanced stats, and do not know anything about this 26 year old player who is averaging a point per game since the day he entered the league.  He was a superstar when he got 102 points and finished 7th in the Selke. 

I do not see red flags all over the place. It’s the knee. That’s it for me. 
 

Miller has the reputation for being a pain to deal with, not EP. Vancouver would prefer to move Miller in a second—but he has a full no move clause.  So extracting any kind of value, you have to move EP.  

Edited 7 hours ago by Porous Five Hole

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

I habe no emotional attachment to getting, or not getting, Petterson.  My only take is, every player has warts, including the one(s) we would be sending the other way.  I have to depend on people in the industry to make the decision regarding whether or not Pettersons warts are either temporary or less impactful than the warts we would be sending back.  I am not really in a position to know these things, and I don’t care to speculate about it.

What I do know is, this team needs substantial change and a blockbuster trade like a Petterson deal would certainly bring that.  I 100% support the concept of a Petterson trade, minus the things I can’t know in the details.

Even KA has a better sense of the value of the warts than I do.  Another low bar I suppose, but its what I’ve got.

Fair.  I look at his rift with Miller and wonder how and why it got so bad.   Rutherford is looking to deal both of them away, take what you can from that.  Like you, I have no other insight into the personalities involved.  

I assume Adams and his team can assess the injury easier than he can the personalities.    

How often does a team sign a 1C to a franchise player type deal and then bail on him so quickly?   This screams Buyer beware. 

The Sabres cannot afford to ship out top assets like Byram and Cozens and blow the deal.  That is why I’m apprehensive.  

[Pimlach]

23 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Honestly this is message board and twitter culture.  And you got a whole lot of people who don’t watch the Canucks, don’t look at advanced stats, and do not know anything about this 26 year old player who is averaging a point per game since the day he entered the league.  He was a superstar when he got 102 points and finished 7th in the Selke. 

I do not see red flags all over the place. It’s the knee. That’s it for me. 
 

Miller has the reputation for being a pain to deal with, not EP. Vancouver would prefer to move Miller in a second—but he has a full no move clause.  So extracting any kind of value, you have to move EP.  

I just read that Rutherford had a deal to move Miller and it fell through.  If he moves Miller why wouldn’t he keep his superstar?  

I hope you are correct.  I guess I have PTSD on Sabres trades.  My risk tolerance is low right now.  

[Archie Lee]

55 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

The knee injury the issue for the drop in production is the #1, and quite honestly the only reason why I would consider not taking him on.

I don't know much about that injury, is it something that will heal over time or is it an issue long term?  Is it something that you make a trade for him, shut him down for the rest of the year, and it can heal after having 6+ months off?

If there is a chance it is a long term thing and it has been bothering him since his productoin as dropped, then yeah....stay away from him and that contract.

I just checked out NHL edge..and the numbers are fun but they don't give you a complete picture..however as far as what they show for skating:

-This year: Top skating speed: 21.58 (bottom half of the league)

-Last year: 22.48 (1mph is a BIG difference)

-2022-23:  23.31 (top 5% in the league)

-2021-22: 22.25

So, this year, at least his single instance of top skating speed, is much lower than it was last year and WAAAYYY lower than it was 2 years ago.

As far as him being a soft player, I don't get that. I dont' watch every Vancouver game, but I have probably seen 10-20 over the last few years and I just don't get where he is a soft player.  He doesn't throw thundering hits or fight guys, but he does take the body, he blocks shots, he doesn't shy away from the front of the net, he doesn't even avoid scrums.  

I keep on asking this and no one is giving me an answer....how is he a 'soft' player?

I agree and don’t think Pettersson is soft. I think he is more in the category of moody or aloof and he sometimes seems disinterested. That’s just my observation. 

I remember an interview he gave a few years ago where he was asked about something that had happened recently in the NHL and he answered with: “I don’t know, I don’t watch hockey”.  This may be unfair, but it came across as “I’m really good at hockey, but it’s not a passion”. I just couldn’t see Sid or MacKinnon or Dahlin answering the question that way. That could be unfair. He would have been 22-23 at the time and maybe it was just an awkward moment of honesty.

My concern is not that he is soft and afraid to go to the dirty places, but rather that he doesn’t always care enough to. It could be that the combination of his knee and having to deal with a teammate who he just can’t stand (perhaps rightly), has caused him to checkout a bit. 

Here is what I’m pretty certain of: if we trade for Pettersson but do nothing else to address the poor construction of our roster when it comes to depth, maturity, experience, and grit, then the result won’t be much better. For Pettersson to thrive here, there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved. Just getting him won’t resolve our flaws. 

[Flashsabre]

I don’t think EP40 is a soft player. He competes hard.

He is a tremendous 2 way centre.

The knee injury is a concern though. With a player of his calibre and cap hit, the Sabres medical team would have to thoroughly check him out first and sign off on the deal first.

[Weave]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Fair.  I look at his rift with Miller and wonder how and why it got so bad.   Rutherford is looking to deal both of them away, take what you can from that.  Like you, I have no other insight into the personalities involved.  

I assume Adams and his team can assess the injury easier than he can the personalities.    

How often does a team sign a 1C to a franchise player type deal and then bail on him so quickly?   This screams Buyer beware. 

The Sabres cannot afford to ship out top assets like Byram and Cozens and blow the deal.  That is why I’m apprehensive.  

It appears you are discounting Cozens and Byrams warts more than you are discounting Pettersons.  Most of the talk about Cozens is how he drags everyone down.  If true, is there really much risk in moving the asset?

[lothar]

11 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

  

I hope you are correct.  I guess I have PTSD on Sabres trades.  My risk tolerance is low right now.  

Hey if you can't have an entertaining product on the ice, at least make the front office actions entertaining. It's like the Ryan brothers tandem biking across the campus while the Bills sucked. Meme factory.

[mjd1001]

9 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I agree and don’t think Pettersson is soft. I think he is more in the category of moody or aloof and he sometimes seems disinterested. That’s just my observation. 

I remember an interview he gave a few years ago where he was asked about something that had happened recently in the NHL and he answered with: “I don’t know, I don’t watch hockey”.  This may be unfair, but it came across as “I’m really good at hockey, but it’s not a passion”. I just couldn’t see Sid or MacKinnon or Dahlin answering the question that way. That could be unfair. He would have been 22-23 at the time and maybe it was just an awkward moment of honesty.

My concern is not that he is soft and afraid to go to the dirty places, but rather that he doesn’t always care enough to. It could be that the combination of his knee and having to deal with a teammate who he just can’t stand (perhaps rightly), has caused him to checkout a bit. 

Here is what I’m pretty certain of: if we trade for Pettersson but do nothing else to address the poor construction of our roster when it comes to depth, maturity, experience, and grit, then the result won’t be much better. For Pettersson to thrive here, there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved. Just getting him won’t resolve our flaws. 

I'm 1/2 way there with you on the bolded.

The team has a lot of issues, but I think they can be a lot better (not good enough to win a cup, but a lot better) with 2-3 simple moves:

-Get another Center like Pettersson or someone who is not too young or not too old, and better than what they have.

-Remove Cozens from the roster entirely...or move him to wing, never to be a Center or on the PP again.

-Get one veteran, late 20s year old D-man with a balanced overall game but maybe slightly more on the 'defense first' side.

Again, they need more than that overall. But if they moved Cozens and Bryam and got back Pettersson and a good 2nd pair vet D-man, I think this team is immediately a lot better at that moment.

[EM88]

9 minutes ago, Weave said:

It appears you are discounting Cozens and Byrams warts more than you are discounting Pettersons.  Most of the talk about Cozens is how he drags everyone down.  If true, is there really much risk in moving the asset?

There is a serious case to be made, with stats and simple observation to back up that case, that removing Cozens from the team makes it better. That is not even counting feeing up that $7 million in cap space and what you can do with it.

[kas23]

48 minutes ago, EM88 said:

There is a serious case to be made, with stats and simple observation to back up that case, that removing Cozens from the team makes it better. That is not even counting feeing up that $7 million in cap space and what you can do with it.

And if we move him for EP40, we aren’t saving $7.1M, we are adding $4.5 to our cap. Otherwise, I’m all for dumping Cozens contract. 

[Pimlach]

39 minutes ago, EM88 said:

There is a serious case to be made, with stats and simple observation to back up that case, that removing Cozens from the team makes it better. That is not even counting feeing up that $7 million in cap space and what you can do with it.

No doubt Cozens has been bad for 2 straight years and his contract looks like a bad one.  

Pettersson makes $11.6M.  We are not freeing up $7M dollars (from Cozens), we are taking on an additional $4.8M.  There is a reason Vancouver is moving on.  And people here want to add Byram (23 and not even close to his ceiling), a #1 , and a prospect.  

If the deal happens I will jump on the bandwagon and hope that Pettersson proves my concerns are unwarranted.  Trading a PPG player in the first year of his big contract has my antenna up.  

I want a roster of hungry and tough players, and I don't see it with this kid.  

 

[Stoner]

12 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

No doubt Cozens has been bad for 2 straight years and his contract looks like a bad one.  

Pettersson makes $11.6M.  We are not freeing up $7M dollars (from Cozens), we are taking on an additional $4.8M.  There is a reason Vancouver is moving on.  And people here want to add Byram (23 and not even close to his ceiling), a #1 , and a prospect.  

If the deal happens I will jump on the bandwagon and hope that Pettersson proves my concerns are unwarranted.  Trading a PPG player in the first year of his big contract has my antenna up.  

I want a roster of hungry and tough players, and I don't see it with this kid.  

 

He's 26. He should be a known entity.

[Thorner]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

@dudacek made the same point about Elias P that you just smartly made. Is his style of play suitable for how to remake this roster? It's constantly repeated that we need to play a tougher brand of hockey. He doesn't fit that profile. On top of that you will have to ship out players such as Power, maybe Tage plus additional assets. In essence we will be going through that never-ending cycle of depleting your roster to again go back to refilling it. On top of that his bonanza contract will result in us having less options of bringing in other players. And what is even more concerning to me is that his production is down and there may be some lingering knee issues that are plaguing him. 

The course of action I would rather see is to go out and add a couple of Zucker and Greenway players. Rugged players who bring experience to the young room. By doing that you will still have enough resources to add a veteran or two blueliner. That is very doable for even our piddling GM.

Too many people are looking for the homeroom deal that will magically lift this stuck franchise. That's not going to work. The better approach is to add multiple players to make this roster thicker and better-balanced.

We need a tougher brand mentally, not physically 

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, Stoner said:

So, no Petterson?

[HumanSlinky39]

5 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

I don’t think EP40 is a soft player. He competes hard.

He is a tremendous 2 way centre.

The knee injury is a concern though. With a player of his calibre and cap hit, the Sabres medical team would have to thoroughly check him out first and sign off on the deal first.

This. If healthy and engaged, Pettersson is a top-20 player in the league. He has an elite shot and is an excellent defender. The sharp drop in production that followed signing his contract is very concerning. He has a reputation for being aloof. Did he get paid and now doesn't see the need to go all out? I don't know, that's pure speculation. The knee thing, I guess I don't know enough about him to feel too far one way or another about it. He's been very durable the previous 3 seasons. Sometimes guys just have an injury that disrupts a season then he's fine. If he's this unhappy in VAN, how's he going to act in Buffalo on a team that looks like it has a ways to go? Then again, maybe a change of scenery reinvigorates him. 

It's just a very weird situation. Last year, the Canucks quest to extend him was a big story, now 12 months later they want to unload him? Something is off there.

Edited 45 minutes ago by HumanSlinky39

[7+6=13]

7 hours ago, Pimlach said:

 

We have room, but is he the right kind of player to help turn this program around?  
 

You're not getting the right kind of 11 mil player for Cozens and or Byram.  Eichel had a bad neck and had criticism that he was not a leader and a locker room cancer.  

Vegas did it anyway.  They didn't heed the reasons coming out of Buffalo, why should we care what Vancouver thinks?

When you get a chance to acquire a really good player, you do it.