Terry Pegula needs to sell the Buffalo Sabres (article)

[jad1]

2 minutes ago, Kristian said:

That’s the exact impression I have of him as well.

There’s a piece of me who thinks he’d hate it if the Sabres won a cup, if they didn’t do so 100% the way he wanted them to,

What's this based on?

[Kristian]

2 minutes ago, jad1 said:

What's this based on?

The fact that he’s had 14 years to realise he’s crap at hockey decisions, and bring in quality people who’ll tell him to stay the hell out of their hair.

No. He’s doing this HIS way. HE knows best. Hockey people be damned, how hard can it be, right?

[mjd1001]

48 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Right, so there is no evidence that Pegula exhibits this specific smugness or ego that you claim exists.  Got it.

Terry, is that you? Or are you a close friend or family member of the Pegula's?

What are you talking about, there is PLENTY of evidence. Or do you only read or acknowledge what you want? Apparently that MUST be it.

Go look at the thread "the trial of Terry Pegula" for a TON of that stuff. Myself and others have posted articles and links to quotes made by him and Kim in just the past few weeks..

There are plenty of articles, quotes, more articles from people speculating articles from people who are in the industry. There is the actions of him saying who he waned to sign and then going out and doing it. The quotes directly from the Pegulas about why Botts was fired?

If that goes against your narrative, I'm sorry. Its all out there. Some of it is 'smoke' and there are also some sources that are actual flames of a 'fire'.

16 minutes ago, jad1 said:

What's this based on?

See the above post.

A bunch of articles, quotes directly from him. Most of which were mentioned or directly linked on these very forums.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by mjd1001

[EM88]

43 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Right, so there is no evidence that Pegula exhibits this specific smugness or ego that you claim exists.  Got it.

Do you read many of the posts on this forum?

I have only been posting for a few months. However, even I have read a lot of the things others in this thread are referring to. While much of it is opinion, much of it is not. There are many links to articles written by insiders. Also some direct statements by Kim and Terry Pegula have been brought up numerous times in previous threads.

[jad1]

4 minutes ago, EM88 said:

Do you read many of the posts on this forum?

I have only been posting for a few months. However, even I have read a lot of the things others in this thread are referring to. While much of it is opinion, much of it is not. There are many links to articles written by insiders. Also some direct statements by Kim and Terry Pegula have been brought up numerous times in previous threads.

If they exist, cite them.  Aside from hiring terrible GMs, what do you think is the worst hockey decision that Pegula has irrefutably made?  When he has gone over the heads of his hockey department to make a terrible decision?

Where is a fully sourced account of Terry meddling?

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, jad1 said:

If they exist, cite them.  Aside from hiring terrible GMs, what do you think is the worst hockey decision that Pegula has irrefutably made?  When he has gone over the heads of his hockey department to make a terrible decision?

Where is a fully sourced account of Terry meddling?

Do your own damn work. I told you one of the threads.  The others have been posted by me in the last few months, and others people added to them.

I'm not going to take my own time and list them, there is a search window up top...look to the top of your page and to the right, see it? Its there.

The proof you need is here. It has been posted. The articles and quotes are fleshed out over and over on this page.  If you missed them, or chose not to read them, or want someone to spoon feed it to you I'm not doing it.

[Kristian]

12 minutes ago, jad1 said:

If they exist, cite them.  Aside from hiring terrible GMs, what do you think is the worst hockey decision that Pegula has irrefutably made?  When he has gone over the heads of his hockey department to make a terrible decision?

Where is a fully sourced account of Terry meddling?

Hiring terrible GM’s isn’t enough? He shouldn’t be hiring anyone but a President of Hockey Operations. And then sit the ***** down and shut up.

[mjd1001]

1 minute ago, EM88 said:

The person you are responding to is getting quite annoying.

If he chooses to not read them just so he can act like an message board tough guy asking us to cite them over and over for him, I do not know what to say about that.

This topic has been brought up countless times and the proof he wants is there.  Not sure if his ego needs such a big victory lap to make him feel better by asking for it over and over. What, we'll do the work for him and then he'll just deny anything he sees because he doesn't want to acknowledge it?  

I would estimate there are at least 10 threads, 20-30 or more posts out there that list all of it.

I just think he thinks his case will be made if he stands on his figurative podium and uses his keyboard to demand others prove him wrong.  To each their own I suppose.

Yep....l have him the title of one older thread to start with. WAAAAAAYYY to much in there to baby-spoon feed it to him.......I gave him that...that is what he asked for.  

He wants a "fully sourced account" LOL. That is laughable. Is he Terry's lawyer and does he think this is a court of law?

This is a freakin message board.  We can have discussions and give our opinions without having to prove it, not only prove it..but prove it to HIS standards? He's laughable.

Edited 8 hours ago by mjd1001

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

My question: Let say he does sell the team and the fans dream team of owner, GM, coach and POHO are put in place.  How long do you think it’s going to take to turn this thing around?

With all the underperforming children on this roster, how is it going to get better quickly?  Trading them pennies on the dollar?  More drafting and development?  It’s going to be another 5+ years before this gets good again. Free agents aren’tt coming.  No one is waiving no trade clauses to come here.  This org is ***** with a capital F.  If these aren’t the right players (they aren’t), they have to build a team, from scratch.  Good luck.  

I still believe the foundation is there to be a good team    They were in a playoff spot, what 3 weeks ago ?  They missed Dahlin desperately while he was hurt 

with Dahlin, they are avg but the depth on defense is unbelievably bad and needs to be improved 

My hope is this year, assuming Pegula won't sell, is that he hires competent front office people.   Hopefully Ruff is part of the process as it's important t him and the new GM are on same page 

They need to figure out a way to get a RHD who has experience and can play with Power prior to next season 

 think they finish near the bottom this season (bottom 5). Hopefully get really lucky in the lottery 

next season, IF they find Power a partner and have a decent bottoms pair.  I think they turn it around next season.   Like compete for playoff team type of team ....which they would be if Dahlin hadn't been hurt this year 

[Pimlach]

The temperature is getting higher here than it should. 

 I’m not buying that he “needs” to sell them.  I would say to just what the Knox’s did.  Hire the best people you can get, look for winning NHL pedigree at the highest levels of the organization like POHO and GM.    What flows down from them will be good. Step away and let them do their job.  Provide resources and help establish a winning and first class culture. 
 

 

 

[jad1]

14 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Terry, is that you? Or are you a close friend or family member of the Pegula's?

What are you talking about, there is PLENTY of evidence. Or do you only read or acknowledge what you want? Apparently that MUST be it.

Go look at the thread "the trial of Terry Pegula" for a TON of that stuff. Myself and others have posted articles and links to quotes made by him and Kim in just the past few weeks..

There are plenty of articles, quotes, more articles from people speculating articles from people who are in the industry. There is the actions of him saying who he waned to sign and then going out and doing it. The quotes directly from the Pegulas about why Botts was fired?

If that goes against your narrative, I'm sorry. Its all out there. Some of it is 'smoke' and there are also some sources that are actual flames of a 'fire'.

See the above post.

A bunch of articles, quotes directly from him. Most of which were mentioned or directly linked on these very forums.

 

Yeah, I read the case against Terry. It was a mess of conjecture and speculation.  I gave up early on that thread because it didn't match reality.

I'm not absolving Terry at all.  I think he's pretty awful at hiring his front offices, and enthusiatically attribute his success with the Bills as luck.

But I don't buy that he's a manipulative meddler who's made all the terrible personell decisions the last 13 years that have sunk this team.  

I don't think he's an ego maniac who's willing to drive the team into ruin just to prove his unspoken way of doing things is the only right way to do them.

I don't believe he's cash poor and running the Sabres on the cheap. Putting an internal cap to keep costs down makes no sense because 7 or 8M dollars isn't driving the team to profitability.  The value of the franchise has increase 5x since Pegula bought the team.

I don't believe that a guy who is almost invisible running his football franchise is pulling all the levers for the hockey team. This is not a Jeckyl and Hyde situation.

I don't believe that there is a hockey-savy, Buffalo-loving, billionaire out there who can immediately save the Sabres (Ryan Reynolds, c'mon, be serious).

Winning is difference between a 'good' GM and a 'bad' GM.  The biggest factor in helping a team win is hiring a strong front office.  Pegula has done that for the Bills, but not for the Sabres.

And I'll admit that it's mind-boggling that Pegula hasn't hired a good GM for the Sabres.  It leads to all kinds of conspiracies about his intent, or motivation, or commitment. And no doubt he has made mistakes, and he is not good at hiring, but in his semi- defense, few professional owners are good at hiring GMs or Coaches. 

I usually try to avoid these conversations, realizing that the Sabres losing has driven us all crazy and we're all looking for someone to blame, so venting is cool. 

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming:  how do we get Sylvester Stallone to buy the Sabres?

 

 

 

 

[mjd1001]

Just now, jad1 said:

Yeah, I read the case against Terry. It was a mess of conjecture and speculation.  I gave up early on that thread because it didn't match reality.

I'm not absolving Terry at all.  I think he's pretty awful at hiring his front offices, and enthusiatically attribute his success with the Bills as luck.

But I don't buy that he's a manipulative meddler who's made all the terrible personell decisions the last 13 years that have sunk this team.  

I don't think he's an ego maniac who's willing to drive the team into ruin just to prove his unspoken way of doing things is the only right way to do them.

I don't believe he's cash poor and running the Sabres on the cheap. Putting an internal cap to keep costs down makes no sense because 7 or 8M dollars isn't driving the team to profitability.  The value of the franchise has increase 5x since Pegula bought the team.

I don't believe that a guy who is almost invisible running his football franchise is pulling all the levers for the hockey team. This is not a Jeckyl and Hyde situation.

I don't believe that there is a hockey-savy, Buffalo-loving, billionaire out there who can immediately save the Sabres (Ryan Reynolds, c'mon, be serious).

Winning is difference between a 'good' GM and a 'bad' GM.  The biggest factor in helping a team win is hiring a strong front office.  Pegula has done that for the Bills, but not for the Sabres.

And I'll admit that it's mind-boggling that Pegula hasn't hired a good GM for the Sabres.  It leads to all kinds of conspiracies about his intent, or motivation, or commitment. And no doubt he has made mistakes, and he is not good at hiring, but in his semi- defense, few professional owners are good at hiring GMs or Coaches. 

I usually try to avoid these conversations, realizing that the Sabres losing has driven us all crazy and we're all looking for someone to blame, so venting is cool. 

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming:  how do we get Sylvester Stallone to buy the Sabres?

 

 

 

 

I disagree with you on him, but this is what a message board is for, for discussion.

If the team wouldn't be this bad for so long, a lot of the 'conflict' on this forum wouldn't be here.....much of it is out of frustration with the on-ice product.

[Carmel Corn]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The temperature is getting higher here than it should. 

 I’m not buying that he “needs” to sell them.  I would say to just what the Knox’s did.  Hire the best people you can get, look for winning NHL pedigree at the highest levels of the organization like POHO and GM.    What flows down from them will be good. Step away and let them do their job.  Provide resources and help establish a winning and first class culture. 
 

 

 

Sounds simple enough….but I cannot see Pegula being willing to do this.  My gut feeling is that he is and always will be a meddler, thus preventing him from being able to trust others to achieve what you describe above.  I agree with you that it is how it SHOULD be done, but Pegula can’t help hemself.

[mjd1001]

14 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I still believe the foundation is there to be a good team    They were in a playoff spot, what 3 weeks ago ?  They missed Dahlin desperately while he was hurt 

with Dahlin, they are avg but the depth on defense is unbelievably bad and needs to be improved 

My hope is this year, assuming Pegula won't sell, is that he hires competent front office people.   Hopefully Ruff is part of the process as it's important t him and the new GM are on same page 

They need to figure out a way to get a RHD who has experience and can play with Power prior to next season 

 think they finish near the bottom this season (bottom 5). Hopefully get really lucky in the lottery 

next season, IF they find Power a partner and have a decent bottoms pair.  I think they turn it around next season.   Like compete for playoff team type of team ....which they would be if Dahlin hadn't been hurt this year 

I agree there foundation is there. 

Tage and Dahlin are star-level players when not hurt. Tuch and Zucker this year are good complimentary pieces.  Most of the 3rd and 4th line are adequate as 3rd and 4th liners to me.

On D....Dahlin is not a problem.  Byram isn't always a complete player, but I'm happy with his play. The 3rd pair are not good D-men but very few players have good 3rd liners.

Most of the fault of this team to me is really only a few areas, but they have been BIG problems and impact the rest of the team. Quinn and Cozens playing SO bad for most of the year...and the fact that is YOUR 2ND LINE.  If Quinn and Cozens were struggling, but you weren't relying on them to be a 2nd line, with 2nd line minutes and first team PP usage it would be different...but it isn't.

Also Power. He's really talented and has really good games, but as mentioned above, he would be best suited to have a veteran reliable guy as his partner. I don't mean an old, well past his prime vet who is just hanging onto his career signing 1 year deals. I mean a legit good D-man, 27-30 years old who is legit top 4.

Oh, and UPL not playing as well as last year, that doesn't help.

Dahlin and Tage are good enough to be your top D-man and to be a dangerous first line Scorer...they just AREN'T good enough to carry your team to victories when you have nothing behind them supporting them with an entire missing 2nd line.

Edited 8 hours ago by mjd1001

[jad1]

27 minutes ago, Kristian said:

Hiring terrible GM’s isn’t enough? He shouldn’t be hiring anyone but a President of Hockey Operations. And then sit the ***** down and shut up.

He hired a POHO in Pat Lafontaine.  Lafontaine brought in Murray, who battled Lafontaine on every decision he made.  It was a disaster

After the Rex Ryan fiasco, people were screaming for Pegula to hire  POFO for the Bills.  Bill Polian was often mentioned.  Pegula hired a strong GM in Beane instead, and nobody is calling for a POFO anymore.

Hire a strong GM and you don't need  POHO.  

But yes, Pegula's biggest failing is hiring bad GMs.  He's hired people to make the decision and failed. He's sought advice from outside the organization and failed.  And he's relied on his own instincts and failed.  

It's frustrating and mind-boggling, but it can be fixed with on firing and one good decision. 

[mjd1001]

3 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Sounds simple enough….but I cannot see Pegula being willing to do this.  My gut feeling is that he is and always will be a meddler, thus preventing him from being able to trust others to achieve what you describe above.  I agree with you that it is how it SHOULD be done, but Pegula can’t help hemself.

A version of what you said seems to be the opinion of many on this board.

Hire the best people you can to run your team. They may not all be perfect or the very best guys, but if you trust them, and understand they will make mistakes, trust that they won't make as many mistakes as YOU would, and let them do their jobs and get out of their way.

That doesn't mean you can't tell them to run trades and signings by you, just don't do more than that, let them make the trades, negotiate the best deals and just get your approval. And on occasion, they are goingto want to do things that you do not want to do.  You have to let them do those things, odds are they know more about the particulars of hockey players and building a roster than you do. 

[jad1]

10 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I disagree with you on him, but this is what a message board is for, for discussion.

If the team wouldn't be this bad for so long, a lot of the 'conflict' on this forum wouldn't be here.....much of it is out of frustration with the on-ice product.

Agreed.  The only thing I don't like is when we question our fandom or intent.  But I appreciate discussion like this.

[Pimlach]

51 minutes ago, jad1 said:

He hired a POHO in Pat Lafontaine.  Lafontaine brought in Murray, who battled Lafontaine on every decision he made.  It was a disaster

After the Rex Ryan fiasco, people were screaming for Pegula to hire  POFO for the Bills.  Bill Polian was often mentioned.  Pegula hired a strong GM in Beane instead, and nobody is calling for a POFO anymore.

Hire a strong GM and you don't need  POHO.  

But yes, Pegula's biggest failing is hiring bad GMs.  He's hired people to make the decision and failed. He's sought advice from outside the organization and failed.  And he's relied on his own instincts and failed.  

It's frustrating and mind-boggling, but it can be fixed with on firing and one good decision. 

Why did he think LaFontaine could be  a POHO ??   Great player, excellent guy, a true humanitarian as well.   But no Front Office experience in the NHL other than 6 weeks as a senior advisor to the Islanders Owner.  There were red flags there.   He lasted 3 months in Buffalo.  

Was it a star struck hire?   What else could it have been? 

Terry  is spooked by this bad hire, who also  brought in a terrible GM on top of it.  

The POHO should have GM and coaching experience.   A person who has worked his way through, and up the ranks, and is respected.  

Edited 7 hours ago by Pimlach

[jad1]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Why did he think LaFontaine could be  a POHO ??   Great player, excellent guy, a true humanitarian as well.   But no Front Office experience in the NHL other than 6 weeks as a senior advisor to the Islanders Owner.  There were red flags there.   He lasted 3 months in Buffalo.  

Was it a star struck hire?   What else could it have been? 

Terry  is spooked by this bad hire, who also  brought in a terrible GM on top of it.  

The POHO should have GM and coaching experience.   A person who has worked his was through and up the ranks, and is respected.  

I have this theory that Terry wanted to model his hockey org after the Penguins and his football org after the Patriots.

I think he wanted Lafontaine to mirror Mario Lemieux's role in the Sabres org.

Again, not making any claim that Pegula is good at hiring or that this hire was anywhere near the right decision, but I think was why he picked an ex-player for the role.

Edited 7 hours ago by jad1

[COSabreFan]

18 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Agreed.  The only thing I don't like is when we question our fandom or intent.  But I appreciate discussion like this.

I don’t need any opinion one way or the other about Terry

Fact is they are the worst professional sports franchise in North America.  Terry is the owner and the only constant in the 14 years.  Accountability this bad has to start with him regardless of our opinions on how or why.

[jad1]

1 minute ago, COSabreFan said:

I don’t need any opinion one way or the other about Terry

Fact is they are the worst professional sports franchise in North America.  Terry is the owner and the only constant in the 14 years.  Accountability this bad has to start with him regardless of our opinions on how or why.

Great, how do you hold him accountable? 

Unless he's caught doing some kind of Dan Snyder sh##, there's nothing that can be done to take the team from him. That's a fact.

It's also a fact that since Pegula pays his bills and has seen his franchise's value increase five-fold despite being the worst sports franchise in North America, the NHL is going to do nothing to hold him accountable either.

So petitions, billboards, conspiracy theories, rants, vents, opinions; go nuts. They don't matter.  The  fact is that there is no way to hold him accountable. 

 

[LabattBlue]

2 hours ago, jad1 said:

Right, so there is no evidence that Pegula exhibits this specific smugness or ego that you claim exists.  Got it.

Pegula has no ego when it comes to the Sabres?  Firing Botts because Pegula claimed Botts wasn’t listening to him.  Has daily calls with Adams.

Yeah, you’re right, no ego in play whatsoever.  

[jad1]

Just now, LabattBlue said:

Pegula has no ego when it comes to the Sabres?  Firing Botts because Pegula claimed Botts wasn’t listening to him.  Has daily calls with Adams.

Yeah, you’re right, no ego in play whatsoever.  

He fired a GM who was a failure, whether he was listening to him or not. The fact that he and Kim  gave Botts a vote of confidence a week before the firing but decided to axe him after conducting end of year reviews shows that he wasn't as wired into day-to-day activities as many claim he was.  

Daily calls? This why I try to get a definition on meddling, because an owner having a daily call with the GM really doesn't meet the definition of meddling, nor does it imply an ego.

 

 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, jad1 said:

The Sabres value has increased five times since Pegula bought them for 189M in 2011 (they're valued at around 1.13B now).

The Sabres do not need 'every penny' Pegula has.  

 

Just to be clear, I never implied that the Sabres did need every penny he has. My response was to Sidc3000 who said that Pegula’s primary franchise needed every penny he has. Neither team does obviously and it’s not even close. Never has been.

[Sidc3000]

3 hours ago, jad1 said:

The Sabres value has increased five times since Pegula bought them for 189M in 2011 (they're valued at around 1.13B now).

The Sabres do not need 'every penny' Pegula has.  

 

I think it’s funny that you both think evaluations and net worth means that Terry just money laying around. a large amount of his money is tied up in both franchises along with other investments.