Elliotte Friedman is reporting Pegula will meet the team in Montreal

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, Doohicksie said:

One of the reasons I like him is he's outside the echo chamber of the Sabrehood.

Where Sabrethugs don't realize how good they got it.

[Weave]

56 minutes ago, Doohicksie said:

Yeah, kind of has a "let them eat cake" feel to it.

I was thinking more like, “go back to your room and think about what I’ve told you.”

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I was thinking more like, “go back to your room and think about what I’ve told you.”

I'm thinking let them eat cake in terms of being out of touch with the concerns of the team and not caring.

[jad1]

23 minutes ago, Doohicksie said:

I'm thinking let them eat cake in terms of being out of touch with the concerns of the team and not caring.

Yeah, of all the possible outcomes of this meeting, this is the probably the worst. Ruff's job just got more difficult.

[bunomatic]

36 minutes ago, Doohicksie said:

I'm thinking let them eat cake in terms of being out of touch with the concerns of the team and not caring.

So out of touch. TP is basically the architect of this misery and has no f’n clue.

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

So out of touch. TP is basically the architect of this misery and has no f’n clue.

I disagree. I think he's actually somewhat aware, at long last, that the constant re-shuffling and changing of course that has plagued his reign since the day he fired Regier only months into a rebuild they both decided to engage in, has been to the team's detriment. I doubt he blames himself for it, but I think he at least recognizes that this team has been racked with turmoil for over a decade.

Regrettably, he and Adams have decided on a course of action, and it appears they intend to stick to it, for better or for worse. I believe the age of Meddling Terry is actually largely over and that he wants to take a step back. Needing to fly to Montreal to quell rumors swirling around trades, the coaches and the GM, strikes me as something he'd prefer to avoid at this point. It's why he gave Adams the greenlight to give that ludicrous press conference. Adams was speaking for Terry.

The fans are going to hate the rest of this season without a doubt. Because even if the kids start suddenly finding their game, the other parts that have trade value are getting sold off. It's going to be an ugly finish.

And then they're going to roll into next season with largely the same roster again, maybe with some new filler pieces. Expectations will be low. And Terry isn't going to worry about it.

Settle in everyone. If you thought "do something Darcy" was bad, just wait to see how mad this team makes you now that management has agreed to let things marinate.

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I disagree. I think he's actually somewhat aware, at long last, that the constant re-shuffling and changing of course that has plagued his reign since the day he fired Regier only months into a rebuild they both decided to engage in, has been to the team's detriment. I doubt he blames himself for it, but I think he at least recognizes that this team has been racked with turmoil for over a decade.

Regrettably, he and Adams have decided on a course of action, and it appears they intend to stick to it, for better or for worse. I believe the age of Meddling Terry is actually largely over and that he wants to take a step back. Needing to fly to Montreal to quell rumors swirling around trades, the coaches and the GM, strikes me as something he'd prefer to avoid at this point. It's why he gave Adams the greenlight to give that ludicrous press conference. Adams was speaking for Terry.

The fans are going to hate the rest of this season without a doubt. Because even if the kids start suddenly finding their game, the other parts that have trade value are getting sold off. It's going to be an ugly finish.

And then they're going to roll into next season with largely the same roster again, maybe with some new filler pieces. Expectations will be low. And Terry isn't going to worry about it.

Settle in everyone. If you thought "do something Darcy" was bad, just wait to see how mad this team makes you now that management has agreed to let things marinate.

So you are saying he finally recognizes WHAT is wrong but is still pretty clueless how to fix it.

[darksabre]

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

So you are saying he finally recognizes WHAT is wrong but is still pretty clueless how to fix it.

I think the question of "what" is wrong is still up for debate on our side of things as fans, but I think they've decided that "what" is wrong is that they've been too fickle with their decision making. The convenient excuse that has presented itself over the past year is that the NHL is now a "development league" given all of the expansion, so letting kids grow while playing NHL games is now a viable thing to do, even if they stink.

[Kruppstahl]

Folks, it's beyond official at this point. 

The Sabres, now, are exactly where the Bills were for about the last 20 years of Ralph Wilson's life.

Back then, I told everyone I knew that the Bills would remain completely irrelevant until Ralph died.  And that was 100% correct.

Same now with the Sabres: expect no improvement until Pegula is NOT in the picture.

I'm thinking selling the team, not dying, though both could happen at the same time.

No idea if he intends to pass the team to his kids or what.

If he is still the owner, focus on other things. You'll feel better.

Just watch the games if you find that enjoyable (I do) spend nothing on the team in any way, and focus on other pleasures. 

 

 

 

 

 

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, darksabre said:

I think the question of "what" is wrong is still up for debate on our side of things as fans, but I think they've decided that "what" is wrong is that they've been too fickle with their decision making. The convenient excuse that has presented itself over the past year is that the NHL is now a "development league" given all of the expansion, so letting kids grow while playing NHL games is now a viable thing to do, even if they stink.

If only they could have done that but just integrated ONE or TWO more 'good' veterans into the mix.  Just a slight overpay to convince 2 guys like that to come here instead of the likes of Erik Johnson or Tyson Jost.

Zucker is playing well at the moment. Imagine one extra guy as good as him and just one D-man at that level being on the top 6. Not only might they have made the playoffs in the past 2 years, the current roster may have developed quite a bit differently.

 

2 hours ago, darksabre said:

I mean, I think this mindset is precisely why they shipped Skinner out. They wanted that money for guys like Zucker instead of Jeff.

So maybe that got that right. But when this entire roster was 1-2 year younger, if they would have just added slightly better veteran pieces, I think it might have helped more than the sum or the parts.

As cool as a 'kid' line was 2 years ago, it probably didn't do much for their development.  

When mistakes are made you don't need a vet to shout down the young kids, but a vet who is actually valuable could say things to the younger guys. When you elevate guys too early in the Sabres case, give them big contracts too early and do NOT have any veterans around that 'rank above' them in the Locker room, you get the kids running the place.  Not that they turn evil or anything, but you can only take so much criticism from coaches before you tune them out, especially if you have a lot longer and higher priced contract than the coach and you think you will outlast them. Sometime having more veteran guys that don't give a **** about how good the young guys think they are, than might help them to absorb a message of how to play a bit more.

A Cozens from last year or the year before wasn't going to listen to Tyson Jost. However that 21-22 year old Cozens might have a better chance of listening to a guy like Zucker who is doing what he is doing on this team right now.

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, mjd1001 said:

If only they could have done that but just integrated ONE or TWO more 'good' veterans into the mix.  Just a slight overpay to convince 2 guys like that to come here instead of the likes of Erik Johnson or Tyson Jost.

Zucker is playing well at the moment. Imagine one extra guy as good as him and just one D-man at that level being on the top 6. Not only might they have made the playoffs in the past 2 years, the current roster may have developed quite a bit differently.

I mean, I think this mindset is precisely why they shipped Skinner out. They wanted that money for guys like Zucker instead of Jeff.

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, mjd1001 said:

So maybe that got that right. But when this entire roster was 1-2 year younger, if they would have just added slightly better veteran pieces, I think it might have helped more than the sum or the parts.

As cool as a 'kid' line was 2 years ago, it probably didn't do much for their development.  

When mistakes are made you don't need a vet to shout down the young kids, but a vet who is actually valuable could say things to the younger guys. When you elevate guys too early in the Sabres case, give them big contracts too early and do NOT have any veterans around that 'rank above' them in the Locker room, you get the kids running the place.  Not that they turn evil or anything, but you can only take so much criticism from coaches before you tune them out, especially if you have a lot longer and higher priced contract than the coach and you think you will outlast them. Sometime having more veteran guys that don't give a **** about how good the young guys think they are, than might help them to absorb a message of how to play a bit more.

Bingo.

So I think any additions this team makes will be guys on 1-3 year deals, vets or younger RFAs, probably with some playoff experience. And WRT to the vets, they'll be given assurances that if the team does not perform, they will do everything they can to send them to playoff teams at the deadline.

Maybe by February 2026 we won't be sellers.

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

If only they could have done that but just integrated ONE or TWO more 'good' veterans into the mix.  Just a slight overpay to convince 2 guys like that to come here instead of the likes of Erik Johnson or Tyson Jost.

Zucker is playing well at the moment. Imagine one extra guy as good as him and just one D-man at that level being on the top 6. Not only might they have made the playoffs in the past 2 years, the current roster may have developed quite a bit differently.

Agree.  Failure to add the right veteran pieces to a young team.  Not that it is easy, but the results show he didn't do enough.  Results do not matter in this organization.  Winning is not the priority.  

Adams can smirk and tell you how no one wants to come here, the trade prices are too high, and all that other stuff - but that is his job and he is failing at it. 

Zucker will play hard and he will get traded to a playoff contender at the deadline.  Greenway will probably want out too.    

It is highly doubtful that we will get two vets that are as good to replace them next year.   The players talk to each other. 

 

 

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Agree.  Failure to add the right veteran pieces to a young team.  Not that it is easy, but the results show he didn't do enough.  Results do not matter in this organization.  Winning is not the priority.  

Adams can smirk and tell you how no one wants to come here, the trade prices are too high, and all that other stuff - but that is his job and he is failing at it. 

Zucker will play hard and he will get traded to a playoff contender at the deadline.  Greenway will probably want out too.    

It is highly doubtful that we will get two vets that are as good to replace them next year.   The players talk to each other. 

 

 

In my defense of Adams, and again I am not saying he is totally without blame, but I think he is operating under 'budgets' and 'rules' that Pegula sets....So maybe Adams is to blame for this but I think Pegula deserves a lot of blame also....

What should have been done is to identify guys last year, or going INTO last year (between the 2022-23 and 2023-24 seasons) when most reports are agents were calling the Sabres because some Vets had an interest in playing here, and done something then. Does that mean guys would choose you over Toronto, or Florida, or Dallas? Maybe Not if all things are equal. But, you could TRADE an asset for a guy like that, and when it comes to signing them, if your hockey department thinks they are worth $10million over 2 years, then to make sure you get them you pay them $18million over 3. (or maybe even a little more money).

While the Sabres were under the cap I think there is a chance Adams would have been OK with that. I think Pegula looked at the balance sheet and said "Nope. We'll pay guys AFTER butts start showing up in the seats and I start making money again.".....and then that option wasn't even available for Adams and the hockey department.

They could have signed guys for more money, better vets, to 2 or 3 year contracts and still had them 'off the books' by the time the current crop of young guys needed to be re-signed and stayed under the cap the whole time.  But I think Pegula wanted to stay WAY under the cap...not for hockey reasons..but rather as a Billionaire who really likes money and didn't want to lose as much on the Sabres as he was doing.

 

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Sure Pegula gets all of the blame.  All of it. 

You can defend Adams, and some of what you say may be true.  But he is a puppet and I have seen enough of his puppet show.  

I want a POHO/GM that is his own man.  I want a guy that walks into a GM interview and won't take the job unless he has total control of the roster and the cap.  Adams is not that guy.  

Pegula gets most of the blame to me. He set the conditions underneath him.

And I do agree with you about the above bolded.  What my thinking is, however, is Pegula won't hire that guy. He looks for the guys that will not talk back to him that way.

As mentioned before, yes it was during covid...but Pegula could have kept the staff on that he had under Botts, he certainly had the Billions of dollars to do so but he wanted to cut staff to save money. Money, there it is again with him. Botts said he didn't want to because it would hurt the team.  So what did Pegula do? He fired Botts and brought in Adams.

Adams got his job because he would do what Pegula wanted, pertaining to money, where Botts would not. Botts was playing the part of the guy who wanted more control over the cap and roster (and other expenses) and Terry fired him for it.

  Unless Pegula has had a big time change in his thinking, I'm afraid he simply won't hire the guy you want (and all things being equal, I agree with you).

 

2 hours ago, jad1 said:

I don't think this is the case.  If Adams is still here next season, the Sabres will spend to the cap on the players they drafted.  That cap money is being held for Quinn, Peterka, Levi, maybe Byram.

 

That wasn't my point. The Cap resets every year. The cap space they had last year, and the year before, and the year before...that money could have been spent on 1, 2, and even 3 year contracts for quality Vets that would have helped this team in the standings and helped play side by side with the younger guys....and by now most, if not all, of those deals would be off the books for next year.

I haven't done the research as to the specific names, but what if, instead of Jost and Johnson and players like that, the Sabres offered a guy with a $4 million dollar skillset $6.5-$7m per year to come here and help the team win (more than a Jost or Johnson) and be a better veteran presence than those guys were?  There isn't anyone currently young and on the team that would have to be sacrificed, the only sacrifice would have been Terry Pegula's pocketbook over the last 2-3 years leading up to now.

Edited December 17 by mjd1001

[Pimlach]

Just now, mjd1001 said:

In my defense of Adams, and again I am not saying he is totally without blame, but I think he is operating under 'budgets' and 'rules' that Pegula sets....So maybe Adams is to blame for this but I think Pegula deserves a lot of blame also....

What should have been done is to identify guys last year, or going INTO last year when most reports are agents were calling the Sabres because some Vets had an interest in playing here, and done something then. Does that mean guys would choose you over Toronto, or Florida, or Dallas?

Not if all things are equal. But, you could TRADE an asset for a guy like that, and when it comes to signing them, if your hockey department thinks they are worth $10million over 2 years, then to make sure you get them you pay them $18million over 3. (or maybe even a little more money).

While the Sabres were under the cap I think there is a chance Adams would have been OK with that. I think Pegula looked at the balance sheet and said "Nope. We'll pay guys AFTER butts start showing up in the seats and I start making money again.".....and then that option wasn't even available for Adams and the hockey department.

Sure Pegula gets all of the blame.  All of it. 

You can defend Adams, and some of what you say may be true.  But he is a puppet and I have seen enough of his puppet show.  

I want a POHO/GM that is his own man.  I want a guy that walks into a GM interview and won't take the job unless he has total control of the roster and the cap.  Adams is not that guy.  

[jad1]

6 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

In my defense of Adams, and again I am not saying he is totally without blame, but I think he is operating under 'budgets' and 'rules' that Pegula sets....So maybe Adams is to blame for this but I think Pegula deserves a lot of blame also....

What should have been done is to identify guys last year, or going INTO last year (between the 2022-23 and 2023-24 seasons) when most reports are agents were calling the Sabres because some Vets had an interest in playing here, and done something then. Does that mean guys would choose you over Toronto, or Florida, or Dallas? Maybe Not if all things are equal. But, you could TRADE an asset for a guy like that, and when it comes to signing them, if your hockey department thinks they are worth $10million over 2 years, then to make sure you get them you pay them $18million over 3. (or maybe even a little more money).

While the Sabres were under the cap I think there is a chance Adams would have been OK with that. I think Pegula looked at the balance sheet and said "Nope. We'll pay guys AFTER butts start showing up in the seats and I start making money again.".....and then that option wasn't even available for Adams and the hockey department.

I don't think this is the case.  If Adams is still here next season, the Sabres will spend to the cap on the players they drafted.  That cap money is being held for Quinn, Peterka, Levi, maybe Byram.

 

[darksabre]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Sure Pegula gets all of the blame.  All of it. 

You can defend Adams, and some of what you say may be true.  But he is a puppet and I have seen enough of his puppet show.  

I want a POHO/GM that is his own man.  I want a guy that walks into a GM interview and won't take the job unless he has total control of the roster and the cap.  Adams is not that guy.  

I'm not going to defend Adams, but I have a hard time with the classification of him as a puppet. It's a little melodramatic.

I think it's more likely that he and Pegula are simply in agreement on how to proceed. We may not like it, but I don't think that makes him a puppet.

Keep in mind that if he wants to have a career as an NHL GM, he's investing in himself here. Being a yes-man probably doesn't land him another job. But being the guy who finally got Terry Pegula to stick to a plan does... if it works.

[jad1]

3 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

That wasn't my point. The Cap resets every year. The cap space they had last year, and the year before, and the year before...that money could have been spent on 1, 2, and even 3 year contracts for quality Vets that would have helped this team in the standings and helped play side by side with the younger guys....and by now most, if not all, of those deals would be off the books for next year.

I haven't done the research as to the specific names, but what if, instead of Jost and Johnson and players like that, the Sabres offered a guy with a $4 million dollar skillset $6.5-$7m per year to come here and help the team win (more than a Jost or Johnson) and be a better veteran presence than those guys were?  There isn't anyone currently young and on the team that would have to be sacrificed, the only sacrifice would have been Terry Pegula's pocketbook over the last 2-3 years leading up to now.

No doubt one of the the blindspots and fatal flaws in Adams rebuild plan is the unwillingness to sign skilled vets to short-term bridge contracts.

But I think that's more in line with his build-from-within/no-blockers strategy than an internal cap.  

[WhenWillItEnd66]

And the Sabre jokedom of a franchise continues. I cannot even watch other games now. This team has just sucked my love for hockey. Will try a gummy tonight...LOL

[EM88]

38 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I want a POHO/GM that is his own man.  I want a guy that walks into a GM interview and won't take the job unless he has total control of the roster and the cap.  Adams is not that guy.  

I do think that is what most of us want.  I think we had it. Was it or was it not Terry Pegula himself who said no?

My understanding is when covid hit, Terry and Kim wanted to slash costs.  They wanted to cut the scouting staff, the development staff and possibly spend less on the roster, although that last point is up for debate. Botts was the general manager and he said no. He told the Pegulas how that would impact the organization going forward. He was, in reality, being his own man, and telling the owner what was best for the organization from a hockey perspective.

Pegula certainly was rich enough to continue to pay those guys. But Terry and Kim said no. They fired Botts for being his own man and looking out for the hockey department. Kim or Terry were quoted right after saying Botts was fired because he was not listening to them and the direction they wanted.

I agree that having someone act as a yes man to the owner is a problem. But when the owner not only will not hire someone different, but actually fired someone he worked with for a couple years because he was being his own man?   I just don't see how you get around that owner being the roadblock to what this team needs.

I do not think anyone on this board knows what happened or his happening for sure. But putting together what we do know of the past. Articles. Quotes from Terry and Kim Pegula directly, Put all that together and it seems like there is so much more pointing to Terry and Kim wanting to protect their money and cut spending, rather than Kevin Adams deciding on his own to not sign veterans.

Edited December 17 by EM88

[EM88]

16 hours ago, Thorner said:

Calm down, Braveheart lol 

so, why do you think Adams was qualified to be hired as GM? You still haven’t gotten to that or really said anything about anything…but me. Your GM sucks. I’m not your enemy. Stop taking out your anger on me 

Well said. And as it turns out, even the good drafting gets undercut by the other components not being up to scratch. Finding the right balance is the essence of team building 

Calm down?  Yet you are the one who keeps responding asking me how to react to you?

I think you need to look in the mirror and read your own comments. You are also the one who has called me, and others 'cute' nicknames that I can only think allow you to think that you are more clever than you are for putting them out there. 

Your act on this forum is tired. And I have not even been there all that long as an active poster.

Edited December 17 by EM88

[LTS]

So with this thread...

Do people still feel that strongly about the Sabres to battle this hard over their points

OR

Is this just a typical Internet debate?

 

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I'm not going to defend Adams, but I have a hard time with the classification of him as a puppet. It's a little melodramatic.

I think it's more likely that he and Pegula are simply in agreement on how to proceed. We may not like it, but I don't think that makes him a puppet.

Keep in mind that if he wants to have a career as an NHL GM, he's investing in himself here. Being a yes-man probably doesn't land him another job. But being the guy who finally got Terry Pegula to stick to a plan does... if it works.

I mostly agree. I would guess that Adams would prefer to have more money to spend. I don’t think Pegula is micromanaging what Adams does spend the available resources on. I think Pegula will spend more if a good case can be made, but Adams knows better than to go to that well too often. 

[mjd1001]

14 minutes ago, LTS said:

So with this thread...

Do people still feel that strongly about the Sabres to battle this hard over their points

OR

Is this just a typical Internet debate?

 

Like with many things...for 1/2 the people its likely the first...1/2 the people the 2nd, and the final half of the people its 1/2 and 1/2.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I'm not going to defend Adams, but I have a hard time with the classification of him as a puppet. It's a little melodramatic.

I think it's more likely that he and Pegula are simply in agreement on how to proceed. We may not like it, but I don't think that makes him a puppet.

Keep in mind that if he wants to have a career as an NHL GM, he's investing in himself here. Being a yes-man probably doesn't land him another job. But being the guy who finally got Terry Pegula to stick to a plan does... if it works.

Exactly. To say Terry is the actual GM started as a meme and moved into an absurd narrative. Terry meddles and places restrictions: he’s not the actual GM. He signs off on the team ADAMS built and they are in agreement on how to build it. As I always say, part and parcel

and i struggle to see how that’s a defence of Adams. You’d *think* calling him a puppet would be to his detriment but in reality people are using that as a reason for why the unqualified man should get another shot at it. So, remembering that KA had a big part in the actual build, in addition to starting out as wholly unqualified, bears mentioning 

Edited December 17 by Thorner