Cozens spot on roster - rumor

[Weave]

I think I saw 4 different spellings for Cozens on page 5 alone.

How ‘bout that Koozins?

Edited December 13 by Weave
Done in by the start of a new page

[DarthEbriate]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I think I saw 4 different spellings for Cozens on page 5 alone.

How ‘bout that Koozins?

Kermit the Frog here, reporting from the plant Cozbane.

[EM88]

8 hours ago, Phil Goyette said:

While Couzens isn't the only underachiever on this team, at some point, this team needs to stop sending talent out of town, and just demand better play.

I've said this since the Briere/Drury debacle...the Sabres are the farm team for the rest of the NHL.

At some point that has to stop.

And while I'm no fan of KA, Lindy has to have more time to implement his vision for the team.

I was there for the Rangers game. It's not that some are lazy, they are completely out of position on plays, and not doing anything but chasing.

At one point, two Sabres collided with each other, and took each other out of the play. It looked like the a Keystone Cops comedy routine.

Franky, I expected to at least see better discipline from Ruff.

With regard to your first line bolded above:

I think the issue some of us have is, what kind of talent is he? Is he really that talented that the Sabres can not afford to lose him?  We, as fans, and as coaches/administrators may have been 'duped' by one season he had where a single season or results masked his shortcomings, and we convinced ourselves he is more talented than he actually is. 

Talent is Speed. Talent is Agility. Talent is shot accuracy. Talent is size.  Talent is effort.  But talent is also hockey sense or hockey intelligence.

Cozens seems to be lacking hockey sense and hockey intelligence. Not just a little lacking, but rather he is really, really bad at it.

The problem with hockey intelligence is, it is the one 'skill' that if it is lacking, it can override all of the others, and in some ways make it worse.

The thing that may or may not support this theory even more is he seems to fade in big situations. The number of his goals that are game tying or game winning is one of the lowest on the team.  He is awful on the power play. Playing under pressure, It seems players that thrive under pressure are the ones that are the mentall strongest, the ones that think the game the best and do not revert to bad habits. That is exactly the trait Cozens lacks.

If Speed and effort are a skill you have, but you do not have the hockey intelligence to be aware of the ice around you, it can turn those positives into negatives.  You go way too deep into the offensive zone on a forcheck for example because you want to be aggressive and think your speed will take you there. You throw the body because you want to be physical, but in a situation where you should have turned away because the puck is going back up the ice. Lot of other examples.

He just might not 'see' the game well. He might just be lacking the ability to process the game at more than a singular level. Cozens may be a person that when he is out there skating, adrenaline flowing, his mind may shut off in terms of the nuance of hockey and he just becomes that guy who chases the puck like a dog chases a squirrel.

The only talent I see him having that over-rides his lack of awareness is that he does get into the tough areas of the ice, he is able to generate his own chances in front of the net to shoot from.  But the more I watch and the more I am aware of that, I think many of those shots he gets credit for (Goals expected I think the stat is), come at the expense of chances for his linemates who may be better shooters than he is.

Fifth year in the NHL. Turning 24 in a month and a half.  Over 300 career NHL games. International play as a pro. Numerous coaches. In the past 5 years he is 2nd only to Tage in terms of ice time among forwards, and he is only behind him by 52 total minutes over 5 years.  I do not think it is a learning issue anymore. I think his brain just doesn't process the game.

Just like the NFL, you can have a QB that has all the skills: The arm. The mobility. The tenacity. The drive to win.  But if that guy doesn't know how to read a defense, or he can't scan the field to see where all of his teamates are as quick as other QBs, that guy is going to be a bust.  Does it not seem like that is what is likely happening with Cozens?

Many QB's were drafted as high prospects. Some even showed flashes that they could be great. But if they lacked that high level to process the game, eventually they were shown to be busts.  Some fans convinced themselves based on a game, a half season, or even a season that wasn't the case. "He did it once he can do it again, he has talent!"  Some coaches would even see that talent and play that guy too long.  Owners would see the talent and see the money they are paying them and not want to make a change.  But in the end, sometime you can't fall back on the excuse that he has talent if that talent is incomplete or just does not translate to the game.

Best case scenario he scores 25-30 goals for you, but that won't be every year.  But when he does that, he isn't making his linemates better, he is hanging out his wingers and his d-men to dry many times positionally.  The likely scenario is he is an 18-24 goal scorer for you while still hanging his wingers and D-men out to dry and being one of the more 'minus' players on your team.

He may have raw physical talent, but if he isn't processing the game, that 'mental' talent, the mental ability to read the game that is missing, that is might more than erase his raw skill, and actually make him a worse overall player than someone with 'lesser' physical talents.

Cozens now has 6 goals in the last 19 games.  He is scoring again, his shooting percentage is back up over the past month. But he still does not look like a good overall hockey player. He does not make his teammates better. He is dragging down the Power play.  And most importantly, he is not helping the team win. That to me is not a player who is really talented and is just in a slump. That are signs of a player who just is not, and never has been a complete player that you want on your team long term.

 

Edited December 13 by EM88

[sabremike]

If lots of organizations that are a million times more competent and well run than us are targeting Cozens you should probably be asking "why"? The red flags here couldn't be more obvious and our GM is the mark at the county fair, this is going to end real bad.

[LTS]

7 hours ago, Weave said:

I think I saw 4 different spellings for Cozens on page 5 alone.

How ‘bout that Koozins?

I'm so glad you called this out. I had a post earlier today about it but deleted it.

I have a hard time taking anyone seriously if they can't be bothered to get the names of the players correct.

People on here were ripping on the Sabres staff for messing up the 8 on Kozak's sweater.. but then we see egregious errors like calling this guy Couzins, Cousins, Kouzens, etc. or that 6'6 defensive phenom Owen "Austin" Powers is it?

Anyway...

I sometimes feel bad critiquing any player on this roster because as soon as they leave they seem to win.  So, sometimes I wonder... is it not the player and is it something else?  Then I just get around to "We're still losing, who cares." and I am fine.

 

 

[LGR4GM]

The simple answer is moving Cozens to wing. 

Buffalo needs a different center. 

[mjd1001]

8 hours ago, sabremike said:

If lots of organizations that are a million times more competent and well run than us are targeting Cozens you should probably be asking "why"? The red flags here couldn't be more obvious and our GM is the mark at the county fair, this is going to end real bad.

Are they? We only know if RUMORS that SOME are. Even so, we have no idea what they are offering if true.

A Rumor that someone is asking about a player on your roster In no way shape or form should mean that he is a good fit here, or even a good player long-term for anyone. Even these more successful franchises, they all make bad trades, bad judgments on players, and make bad draft picks.

And even if it was true, if you go by that logic you are hardly ever, or never, trading anyone because all the other teams may know something you don't know.

And this Adams stuff, it is getting comical the lame names and jokes thrown at him.  It seems obvious to me, and I would think at least logical to most, that Adams is running under a Pegula imposed budget, has Pegula in is ear about  almost every aspect of the organization more than most fans thing (reference Buffalo news article from the other day), has Pegula talking to him everyday, and is working in Pegula's front office staffed by people Pegula approved, where Adams does not have complete authority but decisions on draft picks, hirings, trades, etc are run through the entire front office, and Pegula is part of that.  You want a new GM that will not work under those conditions, you may not get it.

Edited December 14 by mjd1001

[Archie Lee]

8 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Are they? We only know if RUMORS that SOME are. Even so, we have no idea what they are offering if true.

A Rumor that someone is asking about a player on your roster In no way shape or form should mean that he is a good fit here, or even a good player long-term for anyone. Even these more successful franchises, they all make bad trades, bad judgments on players, and make bad draft picks.

It likely comes down to how you define "lots of organizations".  If 5 or 6 teams are calling on Cozens with some level of interest, I would say that's "lots of organizations".  Friedman, for what it's worth, stated that Cozens contract is viewed as a positive by teams interested.

For me, I'm nowhere close to wanting to move Cozens specifically. I have no strong objection to then trading any players outside of Dahlin and Luukkonen, but to keep me engaged in this season (already a challenge), it would need to be a hockey trade.  Cozens for an established and legit top-6 player under 30 with term?  OK.  Preferably under 28 and needs to have at least two years of team control after this season.  Sure, let's do it.  To your point though, I think his value has almost certainly diminished.  I suspect offers right now would include: a useful but declining middle-six vet who needs to be moved to make way for the Cozens cap-hit, a protected first, and a prospect on the edges of the team's top 10.  Maybe only two of those.  I can't imagine Adams would, and hope he doesn't, have any interest in such a deal.

 

[shrader]

7 hours ago, LTS said:

 

I have a hard time taking anyone seriously if they can't be bothered to get the names of the players correct.

Hey, there’s a reason why so many people type out “UPL”. 

[SabreFinn]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

The simple answer is moving Cozens to wing. 

Buffalo needs a different center. 

I agree. But who play 2C? I think McLoad is a good 3C, and the line with him, Zucker and Greenway was ok. Kulich should be sent back to Rochester to win games, since we can, and this loosing can't be improving him much. Krebs is not a 2C. The only alternative is a trade to fill that spot IMO.

Then the next questions is who do we sacrifice to get what we need? Quinn? If we play Cozens on wing, Quinn is the odd man out. I don't like that. And I am having a hard time thinking we ge a quality 2C with only draftpicks and/or  prospects we are willing to deal with, they want a decent player in return.

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

The simple answer is moving Cozens to wing. 

Buffalo needs a different center. 

Agreed that it is a potential solution.  The other potential solution is to give him an extended period with two veteran players. 

Putting Cozens on the wing with two veteran linemates, would be ideal.  Current roster construction makes these solutions challenging though.

Even looking ahead to next season, in what alternate universe are we likely to have a top-nine that does not include Cozens, Benson, Peterka, Quinn and Kulich (with at least 3 in the top-six)? That's 4 players whose offensive numbers are down from a year ago (collectively, way down) and who are simply underperforming relative to expectations, and a 20 year old rookie with 3 goals (and points) in 19 games. Given the pedigree of all 5 of these players, an eruption in offensive production and significant improvement in overall two-way performance, is always a possibility.  But all indications are that next season we will again be rolling the dice on the notion that a group of young players are going to do something at the NHL level that they have not consistently been able to do before.  This does not bode well for Cozens, or for any of the other young players noted (or coming up), or for the franchise. If we are serious about winning and making the playoffs, I think 2-3 of these players need to be moved in acquisitions for more-ready-to-win-with-veterans. We would still be among the league's youngest teams.  Unfortunately, all of these youngsters have seen their value diminished this year.

As is, if we stick with this group of players, we cannot seriously claim that the playoffs are anything but a stretch target.

[sabremike]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Are they? We only know if RUMORS that SOME are. Even so, we have no idea what they are offering if true.

A Rumor that someone is asking about a player on your roster In no way shape or form should mean that he is a good fit here, or even a good player long-term for anyone. Even these more successful franchises, they all make bad trades, bad judgments on players, and make bad draft picks.

And even if it was true, if you go by that logic you are hardly ever, or never, trading anyone because all the other teams may know something you don't know.

And this Adams stuff, it is getting comical the lame names and jokes thrown at him.  It seems obvious to me, and I would think at least logical to most, that Adams is running under a Pegula imposed budget, has Pegula in is ear about  almost every aspect of the organization more than most fans thing (reference Buffalo news article from the other day), has Pegula talking to him everyday, and is working in Pegula's front office staffed by people Pegula approved, where Adams does not have complete authority but decisions on draft picks, hirings, trades, etc are run through the entire front office, and Pegula is part of that.  You want a new GM that will not work under those conditions, you may not get it.

Friedman's report was a less direct way of saying "Other teams around the league know that the Sabres are the most incompetent organization in hockey history with a track record of catastrophic mistakes. Their GM is comically unqualified to be in the position he is in and is failing horribly and desperate. Teams smell blood in the water and sense an opportunity to take advantage of this and Adams better smarten himself up or this will end up the next Sabres trade catastrophe."

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, shrader said:

Hey, there’s a reason why so many people type out “UPL”. 

This has zero to do with misspelling Cozens or Power. 

[Pimlach]

15 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Are they? We only know if RUMORS that SOME are. Even so, we have no idea what they are offering if true.

A Rumor that someone is asking about a player on your roster In no way shape or form should mean that he is a good fit here, or even a good player long-term for anyone. Even these more successful franchises, they all make bad trades, bad judgments on players, and make bad draft picks.

And even if it was true, if you go by that logic you are hardly ever, or never, trading anyone because all the other teams may know something you don't know.

And this Adams stuff, it is getting comical the lame names and jokes thrown at him.  It seems obvious to me, and I would think at least logical to most, that Adams is running under a Pegula imposed budget, has Pegula in is ear about  almost every aspect of the organization more than most fans thing (reference Buffalo news article from the other day), has Pegula talking to him everyday, and is working in Pegula's front office staffed by people Pegula approved, where Adams does not have complete authority but decisions on draft picks, hirings, trades, etc are run through the entire front office, and Pegula is part of that.  You want a new GM that will not work under those conditions, you may not get it.

Yes, past comical to hurtful, and from what I can tell there are many, many more fans who don’t post here who rip them too.  Listen to the crowd walking out of the HSBC after a loss.   Things are toxic right now.  I don’t know if it’s ever been this bad.  The teams poor play at home has been a problem for way too long.  

Edited December 15 by Pimlach

[inkman]

19 hours ago, EM88 said:

With regard to your first line bolded above:

I think the issue some of us have is, what kind of talent is he? Is he really that talented that the Sabres can not afford to lose him?  We, as fans, and as coaches/administrators may have been 'duped' by one season he had where a single season or results masked his shortcomings, and we convinced ourselves he is more talented than he actually is. 

Talent is Speed. Talent is Agility. Talent is shot accuracy. Talent is size.  Talent is effort.  But talent is also hockey sense or hockey intelligence.

Cozens seems to be lacking hockey sense and hockey intelligence. Not just a little lacking, but rather he is really, really bad at it.

The problem with hockey intelligence is, it is the one 'skill' that if it is lacking, it can override all of the others, and in some ways make it worse.

The thing that may or may not support this theory even more is he seems to fade in big situations. The number of his goals that are game tying or game winning is one of the lowest on the team.  He is awful on the power play. Playing under pressure, It seems players that thrive under pressure are the ones that are the mentall strongest, the ones that think the game the best and do not revert to bad habits. That is exactly the trait Cozens lacks.

If Speed and effort are a skill you have, but you do not have the hockey intelligence to be aware of the ice around you, it can turn those positives into negatives.  You go way too deep into the offensive zone on a forcheck for example because you want to be aggressive and think your speed will take you there. You throw the body because you want to be physical, but in a situation where you should have turned away because the puck is going back up the ice. Lot of other examples.

He just might not 'see' the game well. He might just be lacking the ability to process the game at more than a singular level. Cozens may be a person that when he is out there skating, adrenaline flowing, his mind may shut off in terms of the nuance of hockey and he just becomes that guy who chases the puck like a dog chases a squirrel.

The only talent I see him having that over-rides his lack of awareness is that he does get into the tough areas of the ice, he is able to generate his own chances in front of the net to shoot from.  But the more I watch and the more I am aware of that, I think many of those shots he gets credit for (Goals expected I think the stat is), come at the expense of chances for his linemates who may be better shooters than he is.

Fifth year in the NHL. Turning 24 in a month and a half.  Over 300 career NHL games. International play as a pro. Numerous coaches. In the past 5 years he is 2nd only to Tage in terms of ice time among forwards, and he is only behind him by 52 total minutes over 5 years.  I do not think it is a learning issue anymore. I think his brain just doesn't process the game.

Just like the NFL, you can have a QB that has all the skills: The arm. The mobility. The tenacity. The drive to win.  But if that guy doesn't know how to read a defense, or he can't scan the field to see where all of his teamates are as quick as other QBs, that guy is going to be a bust.  Does it not seem like that is what is likely happening with Cozens?

Many QB's were drafted as high prospects. Some even showed flashes that they could be great. But if they lacked that high level to process the game, eventually they were shown to be busts.  Some fans convinced themselves based on a game, a half season, or even a season that wasn't the case. "He did it once he can do it again, he has talent!"  Some coaches would even see that talent and play that guy too long.  Owners would see the talent and see the money they are paying them and not want to make a change.  But in the end, sometime you can't fall back on the excuse that he has talent if that talent is incomplete or just does not translate to the game.

Best case scenario he scores 25-30 goals for you, but that won't be every year.  But when he does that, he isn't making his linemates better, he is hanging out his wingers and his d-men to dry many times positionally.  The likely scenario is he is an 18-24 goal scorer for you while still hanging his wingers and D-men out to dry and being one of the more 'minus' players on your team.

He may have raw physical talent, but if he isn't processing the game, that 'mental' talent, the mental ability to read the game that is missing, that is might more than erase his raw skill, and actually make him a worse overall player than someone with 'lesser' physical talents.

Cozens now has 6 goals in the last 19 games.  He is scoring again, his shooting percentage is back up over the past month. But he still does not look like a good overall hockey player. He does not make his teammates better. He is dragging down the Power play.  And most importantly, he is not helping the team win. That to me is not a player who is really talented and is just in a slump. That are signs of a player who just is not, and never has been a complete player that you want on your team long term.

 

 

[Flashsabre]

I’ve said for 3 years now that Cozens doesn’t have the hockey sense to be a centre. When Cozens has to think with the puck on his stick it doesn’t work out well.
 

This franchise does not put emphasis on hockey sense. A main reason the PP is as bad as it has been. There is no player with the hockey sense to run things up front on the PP. 

The only forward on the roster with elite hockey sense right now is Benson. Quinn is pretty good too in that dept. but he is struggling for other reasons.

[Jorcus]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

 

 

One thing you notice when watchin this and other highlight videos is that he scores most of his goals when he is skating toward the net and shooting. He is not a tip in / rebound scoring type. Mostly a rush player. At least so far.  

[mjd1001]

6 hours ago, SabreFinn said:

I agree. But who play 2C? I think McLoad is a good 3C, and the line with him, Zucker and Greenway was ok. Kulich should be sent back to Rochester to win games, since we can, and this loosing can't be improving him much. Krebs is not a 2C. The only alternative is a trade to fill that spot IMO.

Then the next questions is who do we sacrifice to get what we need? Quinn? If we play Cozens on wing, Quinn is the odd man out. I don't like that. And I am having a hard time thinking we ge a quality 2C with only draftpicks and/or  prospects we are willing to deal with, they want a decent player in return.

Not having a proper 2C isn't a good reason to keep a bad one there.

Do you want a better 2C Yep. But Keeping Cozens there isn't the answer he hurts the team. 

Moving McLeod to 2C, having Krebs and/or Kulich at 3C and Cozens on wing is not ideal, but it is better than having Cozens at 2C.

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, Flashsabre said:

I’ve said for 3 years now that Cozens doesn’t have the hockey sense to be a centre. When Cozens has to think with the puck on his stick it doesn’t work out well.
 

This franchise does not put emphasis on hockey sense. A main reason the PP is as bad as it has been. There is no player with the hockey sense to run things up front on the PP. 

The only forward on the roster with elite hockey sense right now is Benson. Quinn is pretty good too in that dept. but he is struggling for other reasons.

As far as the PP goes....It is a VERY small sample size but I posted this earlier in the thread.

-When Cozens got hurt during the Philly game last year he missed 2 games.  In both of those games the Sabres scored on the Powerplay.

-In the 4 games BEFORE he got hurt Cozens was on the powerplay. The sabres scored ZERO PP goals in any of those 4 games.

-In the 4 games AFTER he came back from the injury, Cozens was on the Powerplay. The sabres scored ZERO PP goals in any of those for 4 games.

Cozens leads the team in PP minutes this year and the PP is awful.  The above data is such a small sample size that it alone doesn't prove he is the reason for the Sabres poor PP. But that, along with simply watching him on the PP and seeing he isn't good at it, PLUS his total of 2 PP goals combined this season and last season with all his PP time...and yeah, he needs to be removed from the PP. He actively hurts it.

[SabreFinn]

6 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Not having a proper 2C isn't a good reason to keep a bad one there.

Do you want a better 2C Yep. But Keeping Cozens there isn't the answer he hurts the team. 

Moving McLeod to 2C, having Krebs and/or Kulich at 3C and Cozens on wing is not ideal, but it is better than having Cozens at 2C.

Agree that Cozens has had games enough to show he can be center, and failed. Unfortunately those centers won't take us to playoffs and my point was that we have to sacrifice one or two rosterplayers and some draft picks to get what we really need. 

I have been thinking about this for awhile. Benson is not for trade imo, but it seems like coaches are having a hard time finding him a center. I honestly can't figure out what type of center he would benefit from playing with, but I think that is what we should target, and to me both Quinn and Cozens are worth trading to get that. But I rather ofcourse keep one of them.

But I expect nothing with Coconut Kev as GM.

[shrader]

8 hours ago, Pimlach said:

This has zero to do with misspelling Cozens or Power. 

[LGR4GM]

On 12/14/2024 at 8:56 AM, SabreFinn said:

I agree. But who play 2C? I think McLoad is a good 3C, and the line with him, Zucker and Greenway was ok. Kulich should be sent back to Rochester to win games, since we can, and this loosing can't be improving him much. Krebs is not a 2C. The only alternative is a trade to fill that spot IMO.

Then the next questions is who do we sacrifice to get what we need? Quinn? If we play Cozens on wing, Quinn is the odd man out. I don't like that. And I am having a hard time thinking we ge a quality 2C with only draftpicks and/or  prospects we are willing to deal with, they want a decent player in return.

You're asking me for a solution. I'm merely identifying a problem because there is no internal solution. We're an 85ish pt team without outside help coming in. 

[Flashsabre]

 

[EM88]

13 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

 

Pettersson is much better player than Cozens, but his production is way, way down and he cost a lot of money.

He played 62 games last year before signing. In those 62 games he had 29 goals and 46 assists.

After signing, including the playoffs until now he also has played 62 games.  14 goals and 32 assists.  It is not only that, he currently has 2 goals in his last 12 games. You cannot afford that slump in production from a guy in his prime late-20s who is making that much money.

He is a big chance at $11.6m until his mid 30's. Right now he is giving them Casey Mittlestadt like production at double the price.

As much as I think Cozens hurts this team, I am not sure you trade him for a player who is producing only slightly better but is getting paid so much.  

If that trade was there, I would do it. I like Bryams game quite a bit, but I would still do it, providing you get a D-man back from Vancouver that is a decent, NHL level guy.

Cozens off this team with Pettersson centering Benson and Quinn or Peterka? That is interesting.

Edited Monday at 06:02 PM by EM88

[Brawndo]