What in the world happened to Jack Quinn?

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The season is over now anyway as Adams and Pegula won’t or can’t make the necessary changes.  Who cares who they play?  
 

As to Quinn, the track record of young players who produced as his record setting pace at his age in the AHL is a very successful list.  He Will bounce back successfully in the NHL.  

 

Serious question, and I'm not being sarcastic because I truly don't know if this is the case....

What records did Quinn set for his age in the AHL?

[GASabresIUFAN]

His AHL season at age 20 was the best pts/GP by a 20 year old in nearly 20 years.  Only guys like Satan and Briere, 2 generations before had comparable seasons.

[Ctaeth]

IMO, the only reasonable conclusion is that he is physically hampered.  He's been amazing at every level prior to the NHL & has demonstrated MUCH better play than this already at the NHL level (including in his rookie year).   Play doesn't just drop off this precipitously.  Cozens has regressed, but what Quinn is outputting goes beyond just simple regression.

[EM88]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

His AHL season at age 20 was the best pts/GP by a 20 year old in nearly 20 years.  Only guys like Satan and Briere, 2 generations before had comparable seasons.

For the entire league or just the Sabres organization?

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, EM88 said:

For the entire league or just the Sabres organization?

AHL history. FYI, Satan and Briere were not Sabres prospects while in the AHL.  

Edited December 10, 2024 by GASabresIUFAN

[ska-T Palmtown]

34 minutes ago, Ctaeth said:

IMO, the only reasonable conclusion is that he is physically hampered.  He's been amazing at every level prior to the NHL & has demonstrated MUCH better play than this already at the NHL level (including in his rookie year).   Play doesn't just drop off this precipitously.  Cozens has regressed, but what Quinn is outputting goes beyond just simple regression.

He looked fine - and produced at a rate above his rookie year stats - both times he came back last season. Unless, you are implying he has another, undisclosed, ailment that is vexing him this year?

[Ctaeth]

59 minutes ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

He looked fine - and produced at a rate above his rookie year stats - both times he came back last season. Unless, you are implying he has another, undisclosed, ailment that is vexing him this year?

I am indeed implying that.  People have noted that he is significantly slower this year than the preceding years.  IMO, it's the only thing that explains why his play has dropped off a cliff.  

[Cranky old man]

I do not believe he is fully healed even from his earlier injury. This has caused him to be tentative, leading to poor outcomes and a view from the box. There may be something to the argument that he is adjusting to Ruff’s coaching rigors. To me, any athlete who suffers two serious injuries in two consecutive years, cannot possibly be the same physically in three. 

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Ctaeth said:

I am indeed implying that.  People have noted that he is significantly slower this year than the preceding years.  IMO, it's the only thing that explains why his play has dropped off a cliff.  

If you look at his metrics, the biggest reason for his drop-off in offensive production is that he is not going to, nor getting shots off close to the net. He is playing the most perimeter game of any forward on the team, and that was not the case last year or the year before.

He simply is not going to the 'tougher' areas on the ice in the offensive zone, and when he does, he is more or less 'skating through' and not staying there.  I posted his shots on goal taken this year vs last year and the year before in another thread, the numbers are startling to say the least.

[ska-T Palmtown]

4 hours ago, Cranky old man said:

I do not believe he is fully healed even from his earlier injury. This has caused him to be tentative, leading to poor outcomes and a view from the box. There may be something to the argument that he is adjusting to Ruff’s coaching rigors. To me, any athlete who suffers two serious injuries in two consecutive years, cannot possibly be the same physically in three. 

Again, his time last year immediately following the injuries do bear truth to this hunch. He. was. playing. better.

[PickaPecaPickles]

I don’t worry about him scoring or not, he’s got a great shot and it will come. I think he’s having difficulty  or lacks the desire to play a game that requires defensive responsibility. I think the once prolific kid line is great in a wide open game, but their preferred style of play is currently killing the team: Quinn -13, Cozens, -8, and peterka -7.   

[steveoat87]

On 12/10/2024 at 4:41 PM, Cranky old man said:

I do not believe he is fully healed even from his earlier injury. This has caused him to be tentative, leading to poor outcomes and a view from the box. There may be something to the argument that he is adjusting to Ruff’s coaching rigors. To me, any athlete who suffers two serious injuries in two consecutive years, cannot possibly be the same physically in three. 

I agree.  There are a number of basketball players who have taken years to recover from similar injuries.

[ska-T Palmtown]

27 minutes ago, PickaPecaPickles said:

I don’t worry about him scoring or not, he’s got a great shot and it will come. I think he’s having difficulty  or lacks the desire to play a game that requires defensive responsibility. I think the once prolific kid line is great in a wide open game, but their preferred style of play is currently killing the team: Quinn -13, Cozens, -8, and peterka -7.   

After going a MONTH (including sitting some games) between points ... December was not bad - 8 pts in 8 games:

[ska-T Palmtown]

3 minutes ago, steveoat87 said:

I agree.  There are a number of basketball players who have taken years to recover from similar injuries.

I don't know why The Myth Of Jack Quinn's Recovery persists. The numbers and the fabled 'eye test' from last year - the time most immediate to his two recoveries contradicts this sentiment in every way.

**Tears Achilles Tendon, owwie! comes back at the early end of the recovery window**

Dec 19 - Jan 27: 17 gams, 12 points, or ~58 points/82 pace (better than his rookie year of ~40 pts/82gms)

**Breaks leg, ouch! misses ~8 weeks**

Mar 27 - April 15: 10 games, 7 points, or ~ 57 point pace (again, better than his rookie year)

So TWICE last season he came back from injury and both times he was outplaying his rookie year numbers.

The 👏 injuries 👏 are 👏 not 👏 his 👏 problem 👏 this 👏 year 👏.

@PickaPecaPickles might be on to something about the style of play or trying to play responsibly.

[PerreaultForever]

His offensive skill and potential has never been in question.

His ability to play in traffic and against tight D is another matter. I also question his desire and work ethic but that's subject to debate. I just don't see him having anything like what Benson has. If he did, he could be quite good. 

[Sabres73]

On 12/10/2024 at 1:32 PM, Ctaeth said:

I am indeed implying that.  People have noted that he is significantly slower this year than the preceding years.  IMO, it's the only thing that explains why his play has dropped off a cliff.  

You would think if this was true the organization would let it be known to take some heat off the kid. I don't know if I believe this is the situation.

[ska-T Palmtown]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

His offensive skill and potential has never been in question.

His ability to play in traffic and against tight D is another matter. I also question his desire and work ethic but that's subject to debate. I just don't see him having anything like what Benson has. If he did, he could be quite good. 

Thinking a little more on this ... I am wondering if this sudden manifestation of 'The Yips' is actually the system. Just spit-balling here, but he gets in between the circles with the puck and knows he needs to make a 7/10 or higher move to get around a guy to get a shot ... but, in the back of his brain Lindy is telling him "if you cough this puck up, you better hustle your little butt back on D!" and that split second is enough to where he either bails or does indeed cough up the puck?

We may also be falling for our own hype? Don't get me wrong, I think Quinn has oodles of talent, but we got ourselves all worked into a lather over <checks notes> a 40-point per 82 games pace from his rookie year. Right now, he would pace out for ~34 this year in 82 games, a mere 15% reduction in production.

I will freely admit that I thought he had 60 points in him this year after the way he played post-injury last year (see long-winded rant a few posts ago). The second half to it - his hope-inspiring rookie year was with 68-point D-Co, not the current 41-point Cozens. Cozens drove "The Kid Line" and his struggles are bringing down everyone that plays with him so far this year. Hell, that was also the year of 82-point Skinner, 94-point Thompson, and 79-point Tuch which probably took A LOT of pressure off "the kids".

So I guess "what happened" is that Jack has thus far failed to take the mythical "step forward", but we should not pretend he has regressed with any statistical significance. Plus, he had 8 points in 8 games in December, comprised of four 2-point games. He might be heating up? Figuring it out? Getting luckier? Sucking less?

[Two or less]

7 hours ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

The 👏 injuries 👏 are 👏 not 👏 his 👏 problem 👏 this 👏 year 👏.

@PickaPecaPickles might be on to something about the style of play or trying to play responsibly.

 

I wonder if him getting injured while doing summer training and then having another major injury after he returned, if Quinn had some fatigue and different approach to the summer then he normally would? He's been playing find now, but at the start of the season he was as rusty as it gets. He was struggling to even generate shots on goal. I thought he had a rough night in Dallas but overall he's been playing very good hockey as of late.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

Thinking a little more on this ... I am wondering if this sudden manifestation of 'The Yips' is actually the system. Just spit-balling here, but he gets in between the circles with the puck and knows he needs to make a 7/10 or higher move to get around a guy to get a shot ... but, in the back of his brain Lindy is telling him "if you cough this puck up, you better hustle your little butt back on D!" and that split second is enough to where he either bails or does indeed cough up the puck?

We may also be falling for our own hype? Don't get me wrong, I think Quinn has oodles of talent, but we got ourselves all worked into a lather over <checks notes> a 40-point per 82 games pace from his rookie year. Right now, he would pace out for ~34 this year in 82 games, a mere 15% reduction in production.

I will freely admit that I thought he had 60 points in him this year after the way he played post-injury last year (see long-winded rant a few posts ago). The second half to it - his hope-inspiring rookie year was with 68-point D-Co, not the current 41-point Cozens. Cozens drove "The Kid Line" and his struggles are bringing down everyone that plays with him so far this year. Hell, that was also the year of 82-point Skinner, 94-point Thompson, and 79-point Tuch which probably took A LOT of pressure off "the kids".

So I guess "what happened" is that Jack has thus far failed to take the mythical "step forward", but we should not pretend he has regressed with any statistical significance. Plus, he had 8 points in 8 games in December, comprised of four 2-point games. He might be heating up? Figuring it out? Getting luckier? Sucking less?

Don't say "we". I am consistent in my doubts and took heat for it last year from numerous people. Offensive skill, yes. Complete hockey player, no evidence of that developing yet. He might in time, and if he puts up offensive numbers nobody says he has to be a defensive stalwart but right now he's soft and even scared imo or in the very least he can't grasp structural responsibility. His most effective moments right now are on the PP where he can focus on his offensive creativity and worry less about what the other team is going to do. 

Ideally with his speed and skill he could be developed into a Jake DeBrusk type player and even kill penalties but he has a long way to go to get there. 

[ska-T Palmtown]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Don't say "we". I am consistent in my doubts and took heat for it last year from numerous people. Offensive skill, yes. Complete hockey player, no evidence of that developing yet. He might in time, and if he puts up offensive numbers nobody says he has to be a defensive stalwart but right now he's soft and even scared imo or in the very least he can't grasp structural responsibility. His most effective moments right now are on the PP where he can focus on his offensive creativity and worry less about what the other team is going to do. 

Ideally with his speed and skill he could be developed into a Jake DeBrusk type player and even kill penalties but he has a long way to go to get there. 

The "we" was just meant to refer to the "general board sentiment", not purposely include anyone other than myself.

The bold - great point and that is sort of another tick in the "it's the system" column, no? AKA, being asked to consider defense (or at least not just go for offense at all costs) is frying his brain?

[mjd1001]

I'll start out by saying overall, even for his career, Jack Quinn does not shoot enough.

Coming into this year, he had 188 shots in 104 games (148 shot per 82 game pace)

This year, he has 56 shots in 31 games (148 per 82 pace)

Tage shoots at close to 300 shots per 82. Tuch is around 220. Peterka had 226 last year. Cozens is usually between 200-210 per season.  League elite guys (not that Quinn is one) like Pastrnak and McKinnon approach (or exceed) 400 shots per year. Yet Quinn is under 150.

If he is a goal scorer, and that is his role on the team, he needs to get in position to take more shots, or just simply take them when he has the puck.

He is a goal scorer, he shoots at 12% for his career. Not elite, but pretty good (He was 12.8% coming into this year before his horrible start). Except for his start this year, he hasn't before gone into huge, multi-month shooting slumps like Cozens.

Why is he not taking more shots?  Is it confidence?  Is it that he cannot (or will not) go into shooting positions?

Maybe the issue is Cozens, try Quinn for a prolonged period with a different Center.  Cozens DOES get a pretty good number of his shots from 'high danger' areas. But when you watch him play, that may be the issue. Cozens like to carry the puck right in front of the net and shoot. Cozens RARELY takes the puck into those high danger areas, drawing the opposing team toward him, and then seeing his wingers open and feeding them the puck for better looks. Cozens is the high danger areas is like a Black hole...once the puck goes in there with him, it never comes out.

Of course, Other than Thompson (who I do NOT want taking less shots to feed Quinn if Quinn were moved there), The Sabres really don't have that play making, pass-first center to put him on a line with to try out.

Edited January 2 by mjd1001

[Jorcus]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Don't say "we". I am consistent in my doubts and took heat for it last year from numerous people. Offensive skill, yes. Complete hockey player, no evidence of that developing yet. He might in time, and if he puts up offensive numbers nobody says he has to be a defensive stalwart but right now he's soft and even scared imo or in the very least he can't grasp structural responsibility. His most effective moments right now are on the PP where he can focus on his offensive creativity and worry less about what the other team is going to do. 

Ideally with his speed and skill he could be developed into a Jake DeBrusk type player and even kill penalties but he has a long way to go to get there. 

 

I am not sure how much speed he has anymore. When looking at the NHL Edge stats I don't care if your the fastest skater, but I do care about how often you skate fast. His metrics have gone down post injury. His 18-20, and 20-22 MPH speed bursts are about average. He is not all that nimble either like Benson or the way Jeff Skinner was. What he seems to lack is any form of aggressiveness in his game. I really don't see him selling out to make a play very often.  

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Jorcus said:

 

I am not sure how much speed he has anymore. When looking at the NHL Edge stats I don't care if your the fastest skater, but I do care about how often you skate fast. His metrics have gone down post injury. His 18-20, and 20-22 MPH speed bursts are about average. He is not all that nimble either like Benson or the way Jeff Skinner was. What he seems to lack is any form of aggressiveness in his game. I really don't see him selling out to make a play very often.  

Another thing about Quinn. He does not, can not, or refuses to go to the front of the net anymore.

Look at high danger chances in front of the net (Shots taken from between the dots and from the dots to the goal line).  He has ONE this year.  Last year he had 12 (in less games played). The year before that he had 42. This year, ONE in 31 games played.

Why?

He's still playing with Cozens as his center most of the time?

Style of play under Lindy? I don't think so. To compare to other Sabres wingers on how much they are going to the front of the net and getting shots off from there this year:  Benson has 23 high danger shots(46.9% of his shots). Peterka has 18 (24.7%). Tuch has 22 (26.8%), Zucker has 30 (44.8%).  Quinn? Quinn has 1 (1.8%)

That is a major, MAJOR difference.

There is probably not a more 'perimeter' top 6/top9 forward in the league now than Quinn. Even Olofsson has 15% of his shots from those areas in front of the net for Vegas this year, and 18% last year for the Sabres.

Edited January 2 by mjd1001

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, ska-T Palmtown said:

The "we" was just meant to refer to the "general board sentiment", not purposely include anyone other than myself.

The bold - great point and that is sort of another tick in the "it's the system" column, no? AKA, being asked to consider defense (or at least not just go for offense at all costs) is frying his brain?

Ya that's fair, and for that I put the blame on Granato and Appert and how we develop young players in Rochester. They should be learning how to play defensively FIRST and then when they are capable in that they come up and can slowly let their offensive creativity come back out. 

I remember Granato saying offense was harder so that came first and it was just so backwards from almost every other team I just never understood it but I think that is Pegula hockey. It's how he wants it, and that's why we've continually lost.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Jorcus said:

 

I am not sure how much speed he has anymore. When looking at the NHL Edge stats I don't care if your the fastest skater, but I do care about how often you skate fast. His metrics have gone down post injury. His 18-20, and 20-22 MPH speed bursts are about average. He is not all that nimble either like Benson or the way Jeff Skinner was. What he seems to lack is any form of aggressiveness in his game. I really don't see him selling out to make a play very often.  

The question would be is the speed not there or is he just not using it due to playing too cautiously and/or thinking too much and hesitating? I think it's the latter but being slower due to the past injury is also a possibility.