Sabres management got it all back-assward!

[HILLsabre]

This past off season, ka and the brass went out to shore up our 3rd/4th line.Hmmm.. They focused and spent exclusively on this level of the roster. I use the word level because the forwards usually don't have or require the skill set as lines 1 and 2 forwards. They don't have the contracts like your top skill forwards either ($$$). Instead of spending and addressing line One forwards (which they really don't have at a NHL playoff level) they focused on the cheaper option. (In fact letting Skinner go and not even replacing the hole he left skill wise proves my point) They have/ had line 2 and 3 type players-a glut of them... (Tuch,Paterka,Cuzins,Benson,) They didn't and don't have top line forwards that can pass and score. Was it About money? Was it they really couldn't find interested free agents because of palm trees? Or was ka ignoring the facts and failing to swallow his pride acknowledging that these draft picks of his aren't what he thought and hoped they would be at this stage? Too much hopeful youth. The defense needs improvement too, but some of the problem is they're trying to help add lack of offense due to negligence of  true top liners on the roster and the mistakes of youngsters.

[steveoat87]

Nothing is worse than a manager who is both incompetent and arrogant (this has nothing to do with Palm Trees).

[mjd1001]

Tage is good enough and dangerous enough to be a first liner.

The issue is the 2nd line. The mistake was made 2 years ago when Cozens was given that deal.  When you pay him $7 per year, it would take a lot of courage to take him off of your 2nd line. This management, this ownership, does not have that courage or humility to admit that mistake.

Tage, Tuch, and Peterka are scoring at an 82 game rate of 52 goals, 24 goals, and 26 goals respectively. Not GREAT, but that is over a 100 goal pace for a first line with a cumulative +28.  You can win with that.

The 2nd line with the forced anchor of Cozens is the issue. Cozens, Quinn, and lets just say Benson. Their pace is currently at 18, 3, and 11 goals and a cumulative -52.  This is where the issue is. An 82 game pace of 32 goals with a -52 is absurd for a 2nd line, almost ANY line.

Sometimes the forwards making neutral zone mistakes or mistakes without the puck put the Defense back 6 of this team in tough positions, where they have to cover for the forwards and in doing so it makes them look like they are making mistakes when in reality they are in bad positions to start with. Cozens to me is obviously the forward that is the most guilty of that, Quinn is getting close to him though, getting worse as the season goes on.  My point is many times where the Defense looks bad, it is often when that 2nd line is out there and making those mistakes up front that make the D-unit look bad.

And again, that 2nd line production is mostly a factor of you forcing Cozens into a role because you are justifying a mistake made a couple years ago.

 

Keep that first line together, the 3rd line, the 4th line, the entire defense......and the ONLY change you made was replacing the Sabres 2nd line with a competent 2nd line, this team is probably in a borderline playoff spot right now.

Edited December 7 by mjd1001

[Archie Lee]

50 minutes ago, HILLsabre said:

This past off season, ka and the brass went out to shore up our 3rd/4th line.Hmmm.. They focused and spent exclusively on this level of the roster. I use the word level because the forwards usually don't have or require the skill set as lines 1 and 2 forwards. They don't have the contracts like your top skill forwards either ($$$). Instead of spending and addressing line One forwards (which they really don't have at a NHL playoff level) they focused on the cheaper option. (In fact letting Skinner go and not even replacing the hole he left skill wise proves my point) They have/ had line 2 and 3 type players-a glut of them... (Tuch,Paterka,Cuzins,Benson,) They didn't and don't have top line forwards that can pass and score. Was it About money? Was it they really couldn't find interested free agents because of palm trees? Or was ka ignoring the facts and failing to swallow his pride acknowledging that these draft picks of his aren't what he thought and hoped they would be at this stage? Too much hopeful youth. The defense needs improvement too, but some of the problem is they're trying to help add lack of offense due to negligence of  true top liners on the roster and the mistakes of youngsters.

I think the 4th line has been fine, with the exception of Lafferty who been a pretty big disappointment. In hindsight, it was a pretty large red flag that Lafferty only produced 4 points in his last 41 games last year, including 0 points in 11 playoff games.  Our 4th line wasn't the issue last year though.  We would be more than fine with a 4th line of Krebs, Girgs and Robinson (arguably better).  It is perhaps worth noting that Washington did just fine in replacing Malenstyn and Aube-Kubel with Brandon Duhaime and Taylor Radysh. This isn't a knock on Malynstyn and Aube-Kubel, who you could probably interchange with the other players I mention in this post, it's just that the 4th line upgrade was one of the off-season's three big canards (the other two being:  1.) The impact Ruff will have on the team; and 2.) The notion that Quinn and Benson were ready for top-6 duty). 

[HILLsabre]

40 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Tage is good enough and dangerous enough to be a first liner.

The issue is the 2nd line. The mistake was made 2 years ago when Cozens was given that deal.  When you pay him $7 per year, it would take a lot of courage to take him off of your 2nd line. This management, this ownership, does not have that courage or humility to admit that mistake.

Tage, Tuch, and Peterka are scoring at an 82 game rate of 52 goals, 24 goals, and 26 goals respectively. Not GREAT, but that is over a 100 goal pace for a first line with a cumulative +28.  You can win with that.

The 2nd line with the forced anchor of Cozens is the issue. Cozens, Quinn, and lets just say Benson. Their pace is currently at 18, 3, and 11 goals and a cumulative -52.  This is where the issue is. An 82 game pace of 32 goals with a -52 is absurd for a 2nd line, almost ANY line.

 

I see what you're saying, and our thinking isn't that much different. Looking at present NHL top 10 contenders, Our top line would be a solid line two on those teams .Tage is debatable, but definitely need upgrade on line One wingers. That would leave Cuzens out of Buffalo thus KA eating crow. Some of these youngsters, Kulich, Rousek, Quinn, Kozak all in AHL.

[OverPowerYou]

Can we nickname our Gm Kevvy Palms? 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, HILLsabre said:

This past off season, ka and the brass went out to shore up our 3rd/4th line.Hmmm.. They focused and spent exclusively on this level of the roster. I use the word level because the forwards usually don't have or require the skill set as lines 1 and 2 forwards. They don't have the contracts like your top skill forwards either ($$$). Instead of spending and addressing line One forwards (which they really don't have at a NHL playoff level) they focused on the cheaper option. (In fact letting Skinner go and not even replacing the hole he left skill wise proves my point) They have/ had line 2 and 3 type players-a glut of them... (Tuch,Paterka,Cuzins,Benson,) They didn't and don't have top line forwards that can pass and score. Was it About money? Was it they really couldn't find interested free agents because of palm trees? Or was ka ignoring the facts and failing to swallow his pride acknowledging that these draft picks of his aren't what he thought and hoped they would be at this stage? Too much hopeful youth. The defense needs improvement too, but some of the problem is they're trying to help add lack of offense due to negligence of  true top liners on the roster and the mistakes of youngsters.

[DarthEbriate]

19 minutes ago, OverPowerYou said:

Can we nickname our Gm Kevvy Palms? 

GM Sheevyn Palpatine Palmsatine

 

You know, in 15 years, I'll have to post, "Somehow... Palmsatine returned."

[gomper]

24 minutes ago, OverPowerYou said:

Can we nickname our Gm Kevvy Palms? 

You better trademark that lol.

[mjd1001]

36 minutes ago, HILLsabre said:

I see what you're saying, and our thinking isn't that much different. Looking at present NHL top 10 contenders, Our top line would be a solid line two on those teams .Tage is debatable, but definitely need upgrade on line One wingers. That would leave Cuzens out of Buffalo thus KA eating crow. Some of these youngsters, Kulich, Rousek, Quinn, Kozak all in AHL.

If you had a solid 2nd line, you could use your '3rd line' to work in guys like Kulich (or Rosen).  With your first 2 lines producing, and your 4th line your energy/d-zone start line...the 3rd line could have some vets on it that you pair with the rookie, and allow that rookie/younger guy to play a 2 way game, tell him to take some offensive risks, but with some vets on the line with him to help him along/cover for him.

Of course, with nothing close to even a respectable 2nd line, that isn't even an option.

[Carmel Corn]

1 hour ago, OverPowerYou said:

Can we nickname our Gm Kevvy Palms? 

 

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

GM Sheevyn Palpatine Palmsatine

 

You know, in 15 years, I'll have to post, "Somehow... Palmsatine returned."

How about “Palm Pilot”…..he’s at the helm of this crashing ship and his view of how to win is outdated like old technology.

Edited December 8 by Carmel Corn

[Archie Lee]

49 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

If you had a solid 2nd line, you could use your '3rd line' to work in guys like Kulich (or Rosen).  With your first 2 lines producing, and your 4th line your energy/d-zone start line...the 3rd line could have some vets on it that you pair with the rookie, and allow that rookie/younger guy to play a 2 way game, tell him to take some offensive risks, but with some vets on the line with him to help him along/cover for him.

Of course, with nothing close to even a respectable 2nd line, that isn't even an option.

When Thompson was out and we went out west, I thought McLeod and Tuch worked well together.  I thought it was an opportunity to try Cozens in the wing with Thompson when Thompson returned. Instead Ruff bumped McLeod to line 4. 

[mjd1001]

1 minute ago, Archie Lee said:

When Thompson was out and we went out west, I thought McLeod and Tuch worked well together.  I thought it was an opportunity to try Cozens in the wing with Thompson when Thompson returned. Instead Ruff bumped McLeod to line 4. 

McLeod to me doesn't make a lot of bad mistakes. He plays a more 'veteran' game.  I just posted elsewhere, but guys like Quinn, Cozens, Krebs, Kulich...I would not put them on the ice together without at least one, and preferably 2 veterans with them anymore. They all take turns, maybe on the bench, but you pair them with 2 guys like McLeod, Greenway, Zucker, and hopefully someone else you can acquire to fill out the 2nd line.  I'd almost rather have Malenstyn even fill in on the 3rd line with those guys rather than continuing to pair the young guys together. It should have been done 2 seasons ago, not letting the young guys 'develop' together. but you can't undo that damage, only hope to minimize it now.

[SabreFinn]

Coconut Kev did not fix the two most important problems during the summer. He relied on Samuelsson getting back to where he was two years ago, and did not get a RHD stay at home guy to play with Power or Dahlin. And he relied on Cozens and Quinn to play at the level we all know they can be, so no top six scorer or center.

Buy doing that he played roulette with this season and that is something that should get him fired immediately. When the team has missed playoff for 13 years, you have to do all you can to prevent that from happening again. If they care for us fans.

[Kristian]

16 minutes ago, SabreFinn said:

Coconut Kev did not fix the two most important problems during the summer. He relied on Samuelsson getting back to where he was two years ago, and did not get a RHD stay at home guy to play with Power or Dahlin. And he relied on Cozens and Quinn to play at the level we all know they can be, so no top six scorer or center.

Buy doing that he played roulette with this season and that is something that should get him fired immediately. When the team has missed playoff for 13 years, you have to do all you can to prevent that from happening again. If they care for us fans.

How is he supposed to get a RHD, when we have no palm-trees?

[SabreFinn]

1 minute ago, Kristian said:

How is he supposed to get a RHD, when we have no palm-trees?

With 7.26 milj in capspace there has to be TP money left to bring some palm trees to western New York. Or overpay so they can afford to buy their own place in the caribbean sun.

[Kristian]

12 minutes ago, SabreFinn said:

With 7.26 milj in capspace there has to be TP money left to bring some palm trees to western New York. Or overpay so they can afford to buy their own place in the caribbean sun.

You make a good point - That means his palm trees excuse is BS!! I feel betrayed!!

[SabreFinn]

9 minutes ago, Kristian said:

You make a good point - That means his palm trees excuse is BS!! I feel betrayed!!

We all do.

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Tage is good enough and dangerous enough to be a first liner.

The issue is the 2nd line. The mistake was made 2 years ago when Cozens was given that deal.  When you pay him $7 per year, it would take a lot of courage to take him off of your 2nd line. This management, this ownership, does not have that courage or humility to admit that mistake.

Tage, Tuch, and Peterka are scoring at an 82 game rate of 52 goals, 24 goals, and 26 goals respectively. Not GREAT, but that is over a 100 goal pace for a first line with a cumulative +28.  You can win with that.

The 2nd line with the forced anchor of Cozens is the issue. Cozens, Quinn, and lets just say Benson. Their pace is currently at 18, 3, and 11 goals and a cumulative -52.  This is where the issue is. An 82 game pace of 32 goals with a -52 is absurd for a 2nd line, almost ANY line.

Sometimes the forwards making neutral zone mistakes or mistakes without the puck put the Defense back 6 of this team in tough positions, where they have to cover for the forwards and in doing so it makes them look like they are making mistakes when in reality they are in bad positions to start with. Cozens to me is obviously the forward that is the most guilty of that, Quinn is getting close to him though, getting worse as the season goes on.  My point is many times where the Defense looks bad, it is often when that 2nd line is out there and making those mistakes up front that make the D-unit look bad.

And again, that 2nd line production is mostly a factor of you forcing Cozens into a role because you are justifying a mistake made a couple years ago.

 

Keep that first line together, the 3rd line, the 4th line, the entire defense......and the ONLY change you made was replacing the Sabres 2nd line with a competent 2nd line, this team is probably in a borderline playoff spot right now.

I agree that the second line is the biggest problem and Cozens is struggling horribly so he cannot carry the wingers he is given. 

But I see a problem with Tage. Of course he's a deadly sniper and can score with a heavy shot at any time BUT he floats a LOT and he avoids contact on many occasions and is very lax defensively at times. Tuch is also a very inconsistent player who has great complimentary skills but in no way is actually a top line talent. He should be on the second line but of course we have no first line player at this point to play where he is. We should also admit that Peterka has cooled tremendously and is also looking like a second liner at best these days. 

On defense, when a marginal journeyman like Gilbert is your heaviest D man your D has a problem. Gilbert and Clifton are your shut down pair? FFS that's a joke right? Power needs a prime seat in the stands since he watches the play more than participates in it when the puck's near our net, and Jokiharju is Finnish for joke. The defense is shite, and it's glaring with Dahlin out of the line up. 

The level of talent on this roster is grossly over rated. 

[Gatorman0519]

It also made zero sense to cut skinner if they were not using his cap. They have to eat the rest for years. His production was never replaced either. 

[DarthEbriate]

4 hours ago, Gatorman0519 said:

It also made zero sense to cut skinner if they were not using his cap. They have to eat the rest for years. His production was never replaced either. 

For the first sentence, absolutely. (It made more sense from financial and cap perspective to buy him out at the end of this year.)

But, his production was replaced. JJP had already taken over for him on the top line at the end of last year and despite having gone completely cold is still on pace to exceed Skinner's point production from last year (which was admittedly very poor for a 1LW).

The issues are that the entire second line (and by extension the powerplay) is basically a complete void of offense, and the top line has been very uneven. If you're a one-line team, that line has to be dynamite. The Sabres' is not.

[Archie Lee]

4 hours ago, Gatorman0519 said:

It also made zero sense to cut skinner if they were not using his cap. They have to eat the rest for years. His production was never replaced either. 

Where the buyout makes sense is in actual $$$.  I was happy with the buyout because I was suckered into thinking they would utilize the cap space in their self-proclaimed "must win year".  In the end it is looking like the buyout was to save the owner money.  Skinner was owed $22,000,000 over the last 3 years.  The buyout cost is 66.667% spread out over double the length, which is $14,666,664 / 6 or $2,444,444 per year.  The buyout cap hit varies from year to year and the average is higher, based on factors I won't pretend to understand (bonus structure), but Pegula is saving $7,333,336 (on Skinner's contract) with the buyout.  I'm near certain that had we kept Skinner we would not have signed Zucker and that the 4th line upgrades probably don't happen.  

In fairness, the Skinner buyout was coming this year or next. The only real damage that is caused by having done it in 2024, comes in year 6 which is 2029-30.  It is frustrating that they are not making use of the cap space that the buyout made available this season, but given how they operate, there really is no scenario where the buyout is causing damage.

[Archie Lee]

35 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

For the first sentence, absolutely. (It made more sense from financial and cap perspective to buy him out at the end of this year.)

But, his production was replaced. JJP had already taken over for him on the top line at the end of last year and despite having gone completely cold is still on pace to exceed Skinner's point production from last year (which was admittedly very poor for a 1LW).

The issues are that the entire second line (and by extension the powerplay) is basically a complete void of offense, and the top line has been very uneven. If you're a one-line team, that line has to be dynamite. The Sabres' is not.

Skinner was owed $10 million of the remaining $22 million, this year.  Unless I am misunderstanding, from a financial (actual $$$) perspective, the most advantageous year was this year.

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Skinner was owed $10 million of the remaining $22 million, this year.  Unless I am misunderstanding, from a financial (actual $$$) perspective, the most advantageous year was this year.

Financials for Pegula to pay out less overall, yes. From a cap hit perspective, the Sabres are on the hook for higher hits for a longer time because of this. It's all EEE for Pegula's pockets. Edit: Just like he didn't want to pay ROR's incentive/bonus and ordered him traded before it took effect.

Buy out this summer [2024]:
SEASON    INITIAL CAP HIT    SAVINGS    CAP HIT (BUF)
2024-25    $9,000,000    $7,555,555    $1,444,445
2025-26    $9,000,000    $4,555,555    $4,444,445
2026-27    $9,000,000    $2,555,555    $6,444,445
2027-28    $0                  -$2,444,445    $2,444,445
2028-29    $0                  -$2,444,445    $2,444,445
2029-30    $0                  -$2,444,445    $2,444,445

Buy out next summer [2025]:
SEASON    INITIAL CAP HIT    SAVINGS    CAP HIT (BUF)
2025-26    $9,000,000    $5,000,000    $4,000,000
2026-27    $9,000,000    $3,000,000    $6,000,000
2027-28    $0                  -$2,000,000    $2,000,000
2028-29    $0                  -$2,000,000    $2,000,000

from 6/16/24: https://www.sabrespace.com/community/topic/36996-jeff-skinner-rumors-trade-and-buyout-speculation-swirling/

 

Edited December 8 by DarthEbriate

[Archie Lee]

Just now, DarthEbriate said:

Financials for Pegula to pay out less overall, yes. From a cap hit perspective, the Sabres are on the hook for higher hits for a longer time because of this. It's all EEE for Pegula's pockets.

Buy out this summer [2024]:
SEASON    INITIAL CAP HIT    SAVINGS    CAP HIT (BUF)
2024-25    $9,000,000    $7,555,555    $1,444,445
2025-26    $9,000,000    $4,555,555    $4,444,445
2026-27    $9,000,000    $2,555,555    $6,444,445
2027-28    $0                  -$2,444,445    $2,444,445
2028-29    $0                  -$2,444,445    $2,444,445
2029-30    $0                  -$2,444,445    $2,444,445

Buy out next summer [2025]:
SEASON    INITIAL CAP HIT    SAVINGS    CAP HIT (BUF)
2025-26    $9,000,000    $5,000,000    $4,000,000
2026-27    $9,000,000    $3,000,000    $6,000,000
2027-28    $0                  -$2,000,000    $2,000,000
2028-29    $0                  -$2,000,000    $2,000,000

from 6/16/24: https://www.sabrespace.com/community/topic/36996-jeff-skinner-rumors-trade-and-buyout-speculation-swirling/

 

The year you are missing in the “next summer” category, is this year. We would have Skinner at $9 million this year.  Of course, it’s turned out to be a disaster either way. But I’m not sweating the extra $444k over the next 4 years or the $2,444,000 in 29-30. The buyout this year was fine. Like many things Sabre-related, it’s the execution that is lacking.