Hockey Heaven!

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Pimlach said:

Well I don’t like our center spline either but I doubt a Lindy can make trades and convince players to come here any better than Adams at this point on the season while sitting on a 6 game losing streak.  

Maybe, but what we are doing now isn't working at all.  The lack of competent in zone D has been an issue for 10 years and won't be solved over night, but Adams hasn't made reasonable effort to fix it  (bringing in Johnson, Stillman, and Lyubushkin for 3rd line depth doesn't fix that issue).  The center issues have been a decade in the making as well.  

I am in disagreement that nothing can be done.  It's time to take some risks and make a few moves even if the acquired player has only 2-3 years on control.  Go get a playmaking top 6 forward like Vegras.  Go find a defensive D to play with Power or Byram.  Trade Power for a center.  

[Pimlach]

“Hello Terry, it’s Kevyn.  Kevyn Adams …. Yes, the guy from the hockey team. “
 

“The shipment of office supplies came in.  Can I issue the staff their Official Sabres Pens all at once or just have them available in the office supply cabinet as needed?   Yes, as needed, you’re right, they will probably lose them, or bring them home.   uh huh.  

Yes sir… now on to those cup holders  ….”

 

[Believer]

The Bills.

[LTS]

Here's what I know.

The Sabres have not made the playoffs since Pegula took over.

Anything they try to do, fire Adams, hire a POHO, change coaches, trade players.. anything, I am going to welcome it because the current path does not put this team in the playoffs.

That said, changes, while welcomed, will not be met with any level of hope or positivity on my part while this owner has control of the team. I've seen nothing from Pegula that says he knows what it takes to operate a successful NHL franchise. He's had multiple iterations and failed every time. I don't care about the Bills and their success. That's the NFL and it's a different situation.

The point is, the NHL team has not been successful. He's not gotten it right and I'm past the point of putting faith in him to get it right. So, change away, I hope it works, but I won't be surprised if it does not.

Edited December 9 by LTS
typo

[Thorner]

11 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Ok, I figured I would have a look.  NHL.com actually has a sortable listing of all GM's in NHL history. The following is a list of men who were NHL GM's in the past decade (not on an interim basis) who are not currently employed as a GM or Team President.  Also included is their age, career winning %, and the last year they worked as a GM.

Pierre Dorian, 52, .467, 23-24

Jarmo Kekalainen, 58, .528, 23-24

Ken Holland, 69, .622, 23-24 (retired I think)

Ron Hextall, 60, .579, 23-24

Chuck Fletcher, 57, .535, 22-23

Jim Benning, 61, .487, 21-22

Marc Bergevin, 59, .557, 21-22 (Senior Advisor in L.A.)

Doug Wilson, 67, .605, 21-22 (retired I think)

 Bob Murray, 70, .553, 21-22 (retired I think)

John Chayka, 35, .475, 19-20

Ray Shero, 62, .586, 19-20

Dale Tallon, 74, .515, 19-20 (retired, I'm sure)

Peter Chiarelli, 60, .579, 18-19 (VP STL)

Garth Snow, 55, .512, 17-18

Dean Lombardi, 66, .496, 16-17 (VP PHI)

Dave Nonis, 58, .539, 14-15 (VP CAL)

 

No good options in my opinion.  Kekalainen, Hextall, Fletcher, Bergevin, Shero, Chiarelli, and Nonis, would likely get some consideration around the league for vacant positions.  All have significant warts, which is pretty much expected for any unemployed former GM (they would not be former GM's if things had gone well in their last opportunity).

Perhaps interesting, 24 of the league's current GM's are in their first GM role.  Only 8 were a GM with a prior team; of those, only Lamoriello and Waddell were GM's on two prior teams.  

 

 

I see a whole swath of good options when the comparison is Kevyn Adams 

 

[jad1]

3 hours ago, Stoner said:

Why would you entrust someone to run your business then be in their ear on a daily basis?

Does TP ask about callups, senddowns, are we in on (insert name of player on the block)?

Does he ask about power play setups, line combos, starting goalies?

Does he make suggestions? Does he direct KA to do things?

On its face it's hard to argue the calls are a net positive. It's putting your thumb on the scale. It's micromanaging. Most of all my God it has to be annoying to people who know the game (even KA).

Is this a serious question?

[Stoner]

39 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Is this a serious question?

Yeah.

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, Thorner said:

I see a whole swath of good options when the comparison is Kevyn Adams 

 

Sure. If the Sabres announced today that they fired Adams and hired Kekalainen or Hextall or Bergevin or Chiarelli, I wouldn't have a panic attack.  I would not say any of them have a "winning track record" (and they all have some monumental failures), but I will concede they have all won more than Adams has. I'm not convinced that the names I've referenced would be eager to be the next GM of the Sabres.  

Edited December 9 by Archie Lee

[mjd1001]

This is what I think Terry doesn't 'get':

Hes the owner, he has to sign off on new contracts. He wants to know what is going on with his team. That is understandable.

But an owner being present "TOO MUCH" can be an issue. When you are always around. In draft meetings, watching practice with the GM frequently, stuff like that.....like it or not it can make some people in the hockey department a bit on edge.  Sure you should say they shouldn't be like that, but think of many of our own jobs. We know the Boss/owner is in charge, but if he was walking around the office, or sitting in the corner of the cafe watching whenever you had a casual sales meeting, its just not the best work environment.

[Scottysabres]

[DarthEbriate]

I'd like to think they talk about how to use the Concept of the Cup to promote life and prevent people from dying.

 

But it's probably a discussion on how many years they can keep the locals pacified about the Sabres complete lack of competence while they preach patience in the Power Timeline. Look, over there, the Bills! Stadium!

[shrader]

I think it’s pretty obvious what this one used to be, but I wish we could see the old thread titles after someone changes one. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Is in it fun watching the Avs and NYR get deals done to help their teams while KA is counting palm fronds?  

 

[jad1]

2 hours ago, Stoner said:

Yeah.

Look, an owner has the right to talk to anyone in the organization, as he (or she) pays the bills.

And most GMs should listen to the owner, as a courtesy.

But, only the worst of the worst GMs would take action on an owner's suggestion if that suggestion runs counter to what the GM believes is right for the team.

So it doesn't matter how much Terry talks to Adams.  Adams, if he is a functioning NHL GM, should politely acknowledge Terry's advice and then act on what he, himself, believes is best course for the team.

If Adams is failing because he is trying to be Terry's lap dog, it still falls on Adams. 

I'm sure that Terry has had just as many conversations with Beane as he does with Adams.  Do you believe that Beane seriously considers any advice might have about the operation of the team?  No.  Because Beane is a good GM.

I don't get why this Terry meddling thing is such an issue.  Good GMs are able to set the proper boundaries with the owner.  Bad GMs aren't able to do that.  If Terry's meddling is an issue, it still falls on Adams.

The solution still remains to fire Adams and hope Terry gets lucky hiring his next GM, like he did with the Bills.

[EM88]

7 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Look, an owner has the right to talk to anyone in the organization, as he (or she) pays the bills.

And most GMs should listen to the owner, as a courtesy.

But, only the worst of the worst GMs would take action on an owner's suggestion if that suggestion runs counter to what the GM believes is right for the team.

So it doesn't matter how much Terry talks to Adams.  Adams, if he is a functioning NHL GM, should politely acknowledge Terry's advice and then act on what he, himself, believes is best course for the team.

If Adams is failing because he is trying to be Terry's lap dog, it still falls on Adams. 

I'm sure that Terry has had just as many conversations with Beane as he does with Adams.  Do you believe that Beane seriously considers any advice might have about the operation of the team?  No.  Because Beane is a good GM.

I don't get why this Terry meddling thing is such an issue.  Good GMs are able to set the proper boundaries with the owner.  Bad GMs aren't able to do that.  If Terry's meddling is an issue, it still falls on Adams.

The solution still remains to fire Adams and hope Terry gets lucky hiring his next GM, like he did with the Bills.

A good GM as you described would not have been hired by Pegula, and if he was he would not be long for the job.

It  is an issue because on the hockey side of things, the last GM got fired for not listening to the owner.  Whether it was about roster decisions, not spending money, or firing scouts and staff, both Botts and Pegula himself said he was let go because Pegula was not being listened to. 

Pegula: "Do as I say or get fired."   

Botts: "No" 

Pegula: "You're fired, now I'm hiring someone with the condition they will listen to me."

Adams was around. He knows that is how he got his job.  He knows its likely that with the team not doing well, he might get fired real quick if he tries to tell Terry where his 'boundries' are.  It happened just a few years ago.

If you are Adams, its basically this.  Let Terry talk to you. Don't set boundries.  Take his suggestions. Make him feel he is an important part of hockey and roster decisions.   OR, end up like the last guy, that actually happened and you were first-hand witness to it.

Edited December 9 by EM88

[Mr Peabody]

I think it’s about the same as any business staff meeting.  How we doing, how are we tracking to plan, if off plan how are we going to make it up,  etc.  Anything new, anything you need from me, thanks for taking the bullets in that press conference, etc.  

[jad1]

33 minutes ago, EM88 said:

A good GM as you described would not have been hired by Pegula, and if he was he would not be long for the job.

It  is an issue because on the hockey side of things, the last GM got fired for not listening to the owner.  Whether it was about roster decisions, not spending money, or firing scouts and staff, both Botts and Pegula himself said he was let go because Pegula was not being listened to. 

Pegula: "Do as I say or get fired."   

Botts: "No" 

Pegula: "You're fired, now I'm hiring someone with the condition they will listen to me."

Adams was around. He knows that is how he got his job.  He knows its likely that with the team not doing well, he might get fired real quick if he tries to tell Terry where his 'boundries' are.  It happened just a few years ago.

If you are Adams, its basically this.  Let Terry talk to you. Don't set boundries.  Take his suggestions. Make him feel he is an important part of hockey and roster decisions.   OR, end up like the last guy, that actually happened and you were first-hand witness to it.

If Botts was winning games and making the playoffs, he wouldn't have lost his job, no matter whether he listened to Terry or not.

I'd have an easier time agreeing with you if the Bills and Beane weren't in the picture.  Nobody accuses Terry of meddling with the Bills, because Beane is clearly in charge.  He's a strong-enough GM enough to set boundries.  He's also good at his job.

If Adams is too weak to set similar boundries with the owner, or too poor a GM to build a winning team, then why are we wasting words on Terry.  The first step in getting right is firing Adams. The second step is to hope for luck in finding the next GM.  It worked for the Bills.

 

 

 

Edited December 9 by jad1

[mjd1001]

4 minutes ago, jad1 said:

If Botts was winning games and making the playoffs, he wouldn't have lost his job, no matter whether he listened to Terry or not.

I'd have an easier time agreeing with you if the Bills and Beane weren't in the picture.  Nobody accuses Terry of meddling with the Bills, because Beane is clearly in charge.  He's a strong-enough GM enough to set boundries.  He's also good at his job.

If Adams is too weak to set similar boundries with the owner, or too poor a GM to build a winning team, then why are we wasting words on Terry.  The first step in getting right is firing Adams. The second step is to hope for luck in finding the next GM.  It worked for the Bills.

 

 

 

I will say that some people disagree with what I am going to say...but many of us disagree with the above bolded.

Nobody accuses Terry of meddling with the Bills because the Bills are a lot more complicated orgnization. Football is a more complicated game. There are many more players, coaches, layers of coaches and management.  It takes a scouting department many TIMES the size in the NFL as it does in the NHL to scout and evaluate every draft pick.  

Terry has said in interviews over the years that he is amazed by how complicated the game is in the NFL, how much the coaches know, how much detail goes into a one week game plan (he did an interview on WGR about a decade ago saying that).  However in hockey, he thinks he knows more.  He clearly, on sabres posted videos, gives his inputs on draft prospects.  It is clear that HE was the one who pushed for Erhoff and Leino to be signed, not anyone in the hockey department.

Its easy to say Adams should set boundries in the NHL because Beane does it to Pegula in the NFL, but that is not the reality of how Pegula operates.  We have years of seeing it....quotes from Terry himself...articles from beat guys that have been posted and referenced in other threads on the topic (The trial of Terry Pegula thread on here from a few years ago brings a lot of the 'proof')...He just pushes for more input himself on the hockey side of things than he does on the football side of things.

[jad1]

8 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I will say that some people disagree with what I am going to say...but many of us disagree with the above bolded.

Nobody accuses Terry of meddling with the Bills because the Bills are a lot more complicated orgnization. Football is a more complicated game. There are many more players, coaches, layers of coaches and management.  It takes a scouting department many TIMES the size in the NFL as it does in the NHL to scout and evaluate every draft pick.  

Terry has said in interviews over the years that he is amazed by how complicated the game is in the NFL, how much the coaches know, how much detail goes into a one week game plan (he did an interview on WGR about a decade ago saying that).  However in hockey, he thinks he knows more.  He clearly, on sabres posted videos, gives his inputs on draft prospects.  It is clear that HE was the one who pushed for Erhoff and Leino to be signed, not anyone in the hockey department.

Its easy to say Adams should set boundries in the NHL because Beane does it to Pegula in the NFL, but that is not the reality of how Pegula operates.  We have years of seeing it....quotes from Terry himself...articles from beat guys that have been posted and referenced in other threads on the topic (The trial of Terry Pegula thread on here from a few years ago brings a lot of the 'proof')...He just pushes for more input himself on the hockey side of things than he does on the football side of things.

Terry absolutely meddled with the Bills when he bought them when he hired Rex Ryan. That was a 100% Terry descision.

I think he wanted an organization like the Patriots, where the head coach was the main decision maker and the GM was more the facilitator.  That's why he kept Doug Whaley.

When he replaced Ryan and Whaley, he hired McDermott first, looking for the same HC centric org, only this time without a clown as the HC.

When they brought Beane aboard, however, McDermott and Beane organized more traditionally around the roles.  They made the playoffs that year, and Terry has been in the background ever since.

[Carmel Corn]

If Pegula is a micro manager (like I suspect), he wants to know what is “new” each day.  Kevyn has to give him the run down and Terry gives him direction on what he wants as a result.  This is why no credible GM will ever work here.

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, shrader said:

I think it’s pretty obvious what this one used to be, but I wish we could see the old thread titles after someone changes one. 

It was a typo. How would it be obvious what it was?

[#freejame]

On 12/8/2024 at 4:01 PM, Thorner said:

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud.

accept and be happy with whatever hockey team we have, no matter what.

My pet lion bit my face the other day and I needed to get stitches and a new eye, but really I’m just happy to live in such a place that allows lions for pets. 

[pi2000]

Kevyn and TP talk about typical GM stuff... potential roster moves, deals, callups, just bouncing ideas and whatnot off TP.    Who's really driving the bus tho?

That said, what they're desperately in need of is an actual President of Hockey Operations, someone who is responsible for the strategic direction of the team and to monitor the GM.    That role is currently filled by TP.   

That's the issue.   

I can't imagine Kevyn enjoys having the owner hover over every decision he makes, it's probably miserable.. to be honest.     

[ska-T Palmtown]

So I think Terry and I have about the same amount of professional hockey experience ... zero. Both huge fans.

If I had buh buh buh billllllions of dollars and my other sports team was making me money faster than my hasbro scrooge mcduck money counter could count, the last thing I would want to do is be in the weeds with the hockey team. But, perhaps this is why I am not a billionaire in the first place?

[shrader]

34 minutes ago, Stoner said:

It was a typo. How would it be obvious what it was?

I figured you added the yes I’m serious part after someone asked.