Hockey Heaven!

[Cascade Youth]

He must know he is down to his last chip.

Edited November 14 by Cascade Youth

[Pimlach]

4 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

To be fair, to many of us the #1 offseason 'hope and dream' was that Tage would return to form as a 40+ goal guy.  That one did happen.  Many people disagreed with it....so it is unfair to say ALL of the offseason hopes/dreams/assumptions are false.

 

Tage has 28 more goals to go to hit 40, but he is on his way and has been a bright spot so far. 

I said the FO hopes and dreams are turning false, but the season is far from over.  Cozens can still come on and score 25, Quinn can wake up and play better,  Byram can get Norris votes, etc., etc.  I seriously want to be wrong about this all these key assumptions going awry.  

I am addressing the FO's major hope and dreams (or assumptions) and it was not meant to be a complete and comprehensive. I picked these 5 because they are the 5 that stood put to me.   Thompson returning to form was something I expected to happen if he was healthy.  

Back to whether Adams should make a key hockey trade - I think he should do something, but the issue is trusting him to not hurt the team more.  

[That Aud Smell]

9 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Always two there are, a master and an apprentice.

The evil part: yes. The genius part is what I'm having trouble with. But... he did manage to win the ear of Darth Pegulas the Wise, enact his coup, and make himself into an Emperor NHL GM.

Good stuff - maybe especially the part I snipped. The timeline is a fascinating one. How'd he get in the front door like he did? And by what process(es) did he so firmly entrench himself in Pegula Land?

I guess it may also be a dull story. Garden variety sycophant sh1t.

[DarthEbriate]

14 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

The timeline is a fascinating one. 

I guess it may also be a dull story. 

In the prequel Star Wars, it took Sheev (that's the Emperor) 13 in-universe years to go from Senator of Naboo to Emperor, destroying the Jedi and "killing" Anakin and Amidala.

In the Sabres Wars, it took Sheevyn (that's Kevyn) only 9 years to go from Assistant Coach to GM, destroying the franchise and "trading" Jackikin and Reinodala.

As a phantom menace, he's even more Efficient, Effective, and Economical in real life.

Edited November 14 by DarthEbriate

[mjd1001]

38 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I think we're talking past each other. I'm not talking about his job performance. In response to something you'd said (about there being a narrative that Adams was/is unqualified), I was asking about his qualifications for the job. Which I understand to be a separate issue from job performance.

Ok, when I think about is he 'qualified' for  the job, I think more about year 1...did he deserve it then because does he know how the GM job is supposed to be executed.  The reason I don't think about that much anymore is because since he had the position for years now, he knows that. He's been through a few drafts. He knows the phone numbers of the other GM's and how to contact them. He knows how the position works.  So being 'qualified' for the job to me was an issue in year one. Now that we are beyond that, I only think about how he has done in the job (performance) and what he is 'allowed' to do (Pegula).

[That Aud Smell]

Just now, mjd1001 said:

Ok, when I think about is he 'qualified' for  the job, I think more about year 1...did he deserve it then because does he know how the GM job is supposed to be executed.  The reason I don't think about that much anymore is because since he had the position for years now, he knows that. He's been through a few drafts. He knows the phone numbers of the other GM's and how to contact them. He knows how the position works.  So being 'qualified' for the job to me was an issue in year one. Now that we are beyond that, I only think about how he has done in the job (performance) and what he is 'allowed' to do (Pegula).

Fair enough. When I see a guy in a position that he's fooked up and fumbled a dozen different ways, I tend to think about whether he should have been hired (appointed) in the first place.

[EM88]

23 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

In the prequel Star Wars, it took Sheev (that's the Emperor) 13 in-universe years to go from Senator of Naboo to Emperor, destroying the Jedi and "killing" Anakin and Amidala.

In the Sabres Wars, it took Sheevyn (that's Kevyn) only 9 years to go from Assistant Coach to GM, destroying the franchise and "trading" Jackikin and Reinodala.

As a phantom menace, he's even more Efficient, Effective, and Economical in real life.

I can not get behind that analogy totally.

I am not well schooled on the star wars mythology. But to me Adams is more like the Darth Vader or Darth maul character, and Pegula is the emporor.

A better comparison to me would to compare Adams to a General given orders to win the war. But that General has to run every decision by the president/prime minister, and has to win the war with the tolls the president/prime minister gives them along the way.  Then when the war is not won soon enough, the president/prime minister (in this case) gets to blame the general (Adams, in this case).

I would like my general (Adams) to be able to tell the president/pm (pegula) what is needed to win the war, and then have the president/pm supply that and get out of the way with battlefield decisions.  I do not think Pegula operates that way.

The Sabres had other generals in the past.  The President/PM got rid of them because he simply wants his generals to execute his orders his way, he does not want them giving him feedback, or demands on what they need to do the job. Those previous Generals have not been fired to make way for one that was told the only way he is getting the job is to do what he is told.  That new general might be great at his job, or as others have said he might be terrible, But we will not ever know until the President/PM decides to step aside or step away from decision making.

And should you fire this current general, you are likely to get more of the same. The president will not hire someone new and give them what they need no questions asked. The dynamic will remain the same.

Edited November 14 by EM88

[Thorner]

The idea that we don’t have enough to be going on to evaluate the job performance of Adams thus far is absurd. He wouldn’t have gotten credit had this team made the playoffs? Everyone would have been praising GM Terry Pegula, right? Come on now. I’m not sure when it happened, but some (but not many) have taken the idea that Pegula may be presenting certain handcuffs and run off the rails with it, with the idea that Adams is *literally* a puppet and not making any decisions. Adams is the one presenting the ideas he comes up with to the GM, Terry isn’t literally the GM. All owners have veto power. Almost all owners make their voices heard. It is literally in the job description of *every* GM to navigate this process. We know Adams had the ability to construct a playoff team under these parameters because we missed by one point a few years ago. 

I used to joke about “what could Kevyn Adams have even done?”. In a very hyperbolic way I was suggesting some seem to post as if Adams literally could not be held accountable for anything. That this position has moved beyond meme, and coalesced into an actual stance is fairly amusing.

Oh, I’m back. 

[Weave]

6 minutes ago, Thorner said:

 

Oh, I’m back. 

We were never really concerned about whether you’d come back.

Edited November 14 by Weave

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Weave said:

We were never really concerned about whether you’d come back.

Love you guys so much not even this franchise can keep me away 

[kas23]

It been awhile since we had a “he tried” leak. So, here it is. 

[Stoner]

29 minutes ago, Thorner said:

Love you guys so much not even this franchise can keep me away 

How is it out there?

[Taro T]

43 minutes ago, Thorner said:

The idea that we don’t have enough to be going on to evaluate the job performance of Adams thus far is absurd. He wouldn’t have gotten credit had this team made the playoffs? Everyone would have been praising GM Terry Pegula, right? Come on now. I’m not sure when it happened, but some (but not many) have taken the idea that Pegula may be presenting certain handcuffs and run off the rails with it, with the idea that Adams is *literally* a puppet and not making any decisions. Adams is the one presenting the ideas he comes up with to the GM, Terry isn’t literally the GM. All owners have veto power. Almost all owners make their voices heard. It is literally in the job description of *every* GM to navigate this process. We know Adams had the ability to construct a playoff team under these parameters because we missed by one point a few years ago. 

I used to joke about “what could Kevyn Adams have even done?”. In a very hyperbolic way I was suggesting some seem to post as if Adams literally could not be held accountable for anything. That this position has moved beyond meme, and coalesced into an actual stance is fairly amusing.

Oh, I’m back. 

And THAT is part of the GM's job too.  If he strongly believes a certain move will help the team either today or down the road (or ideally both), he needs to make the case to his boss strongly enough that the boss comes around to agree with making the move.

IF he is getting vetoed (and people that have credibility have implied it if not outright claimed it) then he needs to improve his communication and persuasion skills.  We ALL need for him to be better at that or we need somebody else in the role.  (And personally still see the playoffs as very much a possibility if not actually kinda likely.)

[...]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Ok, when I think about is he 'qualified' for  the job, I think more about year 1...did he deserve it then because does he know how the GM job is supposed to be executed.  The reason I don't think about that much anymore is because since he had the position for years now, he knows that. He's been through a few drafts. He knows the phone numbers of the other GM's and how to contact them. He knows how the position works.  So being 'qualified' for the job to me was an issue in year one. Now that we are beyond that, I only think about how he has done in the job (performance) and what he is 'allowed' to do (Pegula).

"Narrative" as in a story-line that transcends a single poster's opinion and exists in more than a few posts. So, just because you may think this-or-that about a subject and say so in a post, that doesn't make it a narrative. If you maintain this view on a particular subject across your posts over a certain amount of time it could become a personal narrative.

If someone posits a view on a subject which is adopted by others and referenced routinely over a length of time, that becomes a narrative proper.

A good example is the Mitts trade. There are two competing narratives: A) he wasn't the right guy for the team and would not have been offered a good contract so he had to go B) Mitts was a big loss and the return of Byram wasn't worth it. It doesn't matter what the individual thinks so long as these two threads of thought/story lines exist which makes them narratives.

So, @That Aud Smell is looking for a thread-of-thought, held up by multiple people over time, that competes with the narrative that KA is unqualified for the job. He is not looking for your personal position or opinion, but rather the amalgamated opinion of many people promoted over time.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Stoner said:

How is it out there?

The air is pretty fresh ngl

- - - 

I was always aware of the fact I never made a conscious choice to be a Sabres fan, but was rather born into it. But the drum beat of looming inevitability in the furthest reaches of my mind seemed to suggest, nay, lovingly whisper, in bone-chilling fashion, that the hold goes well beyond that, moulded by time:

Fresh air?

No. My soul craves the stench of the Stoner.

[...]

8 minutes ago, Thorner said:

No. My soul craves the stench of the Stoner.

[LTS]

17 minutes ago, Thorner said:

The air is pretty fresh ngl

- - - 

I was always aware of the fact I never made a conscious choice to be a Sabres fan, but was rather born into it. But the drum beat of looming inevitability in the furthest reaches of my mind seemed to suggest, nay, lovingly whisper, in bone-chilling fashion, that the hold goes well beyond that, moulded by time:

Fresh air?

No. My soul craves the stench of the Stoner.

welcome back...

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I could pick individual moves that seem to be working out, but that isn't my point.

It doesn't MATTER if Adams is good or not, because he is a puppet for Pegula. End of story for me. I do not know if he is good or not, because I believe everything is run by, and approved or rejected by Pegula.  Adams has no autonomy.

We know Botts got fired because he would not do Pegula's bidding (see the articles written about that, there were many). 

My whole point is why fire Adams, you are only going to get the exact same thing. Adams MAY be terrible as a GM, he may be GREAT, but we cannot know while Pegula is playing the wizard-behind-the-curtain, and if Adams does get fired, it will be nothing more than a 'sacrifice to the masses' demanding change, and he will be replaced with a new person who has the exact same job guidelines and restrictions.

There is no question that prior to making a hockey decision that the GM has to run it by the owner. But as @Thorner has pointed out, there is nothing unusual about that. The owner wants to be kept in the loop before a decision is made. I don't find that surprising or a process/sequence to be critical of. There are some organizations where the hockey operation is completely separate from the corporate owner. But in an ownership structure of a single individual owner, he being involved or attuned to what is going on (however one wants to describe it) shouldn't be a surprise. 

There is no question that the GM has a more limited budget to work with than many other organizations have. But that limitation shouldn't be an explanation for every hockey decision the GM makes. Of course, our GM has made some good decisions. This offseason, he smartly rebuilt the lower lines. But overall, his body of work is average in a competitive field where you are going against other GMs who are wiser and more creative in working within their own challenging and often limiting environments. 

I haven't given up on this season just yet. However, I'm not going to dumb down what good work and success are. Your record is your record. No more excuses. 

Edited November 15 by JohnC

[Thorner]

22 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is no question that prior to making a hockey decision that the GM has to run it by the owner. But as @Thorner has pointed out, there is nothing unusual about that. The owner wants to be kept in the loop before a decision is made. I don't find that surprising or a process/sequence to be critical of. There are some organizations where the hockey operation is completely separate from the corporate owner. But in an ownership structure of a single individual owner, he being involved or attuned to what is going on (however one wants to describe it) shouldn't be a surprise. 

There is no question that the GM has a more limited budget to work with than many other organizations have. But that limitation shouldn't be an explanation for every hockey decision the GM makes. Of course, our GM has made some good decisions. This offseason, he smartly rebuilt the lower lines. But overall, his body of work is average in a competitive field where you are going against other GMs who are wiser and more creative in working within their own challenging and often limiting environments. 

I haven't given up on this season just yet. However, I'm not going to dumb down what good work and success is. Your record is your record. No more excuses. 

The thing with Adams is, and whoever the GM is in general, we can still measure moves he does make, that aren’t limited by the budget constraints (we don’t imagine budget is an issue on the 4th line, right? What we are spending there is comparable to other teams?) relatively versus other teams.

Frankly, his offseason work was mostly terrible, even the stuff he did do:

These guys aren’t good. Did Terry Pegula make Adams sign Beck Malenstyn?

Did Terry know who Beck Malenstyn even was? 

Did you? 

I’m not trying to make a funny point: I sure didn’t know who he was 

- - - 

It’s not like Adams is incapable of making good moves. Zucker seems good. Me and you are simply saying he’s amendable to the results, over a LONG period of time, which is what we were granting. Honestly, the fact you said before he needed more time, and are now, after some time, shifting your stance, proves the inherent logic of your stance and your approach to the analysis 

That even, “the general manager who built the team is amendable to the results” seems to be a bridge too far sometimes, a contentious issue, makes debating or analyzing *anything* we see seem rather pointless

Edited November 14 by Thorner

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Thorner said:

The thing with Adams is, and whoever the GM is in general, we can still measure moves he does make, that aren’t limited by the budget constraints (we don’t imagine budget is an issue on the 4th line, right? What we are spending there is comparable to other teams?) relatively versus other teams.

Frankly, his offseason work was mostly terrible, even the stuff he did do:

These guys aren’t good. Did Terry Pegula make Adams sign Beck Malenstyn?

Did Terry know who Beck Malenstyn even was? 

Did you? 

I’m not trying to make a funny point: I sure didn’t know who he was 

I have little problem with the additions. However, that is not to say that addressing the lower lines and making them faster and grittier were enough. In my view, it raised the floor but didn't do enough to impactfully improve the team. In my opinion, the exchange of Mitts for Byram was a mistake. It was an equal talent exchange but from a roster standpoint it hurt the roster. What I was hoping for was adding a second line caliber. Overall, collectively his decisions lacked the required impactful addition that needed to be made. Taking a casual approach when you are managing a middling roster is insufficient. There is little urgency and too much satisfaction in toddling along. Simply not good enough.

[DarthEbriate]

3 hours ago, EM88 said:

I can not get behind that analogy totally.

I am not well schooled on the star wars mythology. But to me Adams is more like the Darth Vader or Darth maul character, and Pegula is the emporor.

You must do what you feel is right, of course.

All I'm saying is that the further you dig into the names and match them up on a spreadsheet with relation to their roles in the plot, the more beautifully and uncannily it aligns.

[elijah]

Lol, this would make me furious. Could’ve just kept Mitts at that point 

[Indabuff]

Maybe KA is gonna fire himself 

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, ... said:

So, @That Aud Smell is looking for a thread-of-thought, held up by multiple people over time, that competes with the narrative that KA is unqualified for the job. He is not looking for your personal position or opinion, but rather the amalgamated opinion of many people promoted over time.

[That Aud Smell]

8 minutes ago, elijah said:

Lol, this would make me furious. Could’ve just kept Mitts at that point 

I ... I would be down for this if only for the comedic value. It would be pretty incredible. Especially if the player they got for Byram was objectively (or even arguably) not as good as Mittelstadt.