Draft picks aside....this organization has no FA/Trade leverage

[ASlugAbove]

Ever since Lucic ran Miller this team has been desperate to find an identity. They tried to get tougher and brought in guys like John Scott (lol) and Steve Ott. It didn't work.

They tried to bring in talent with guys like Taylor Hall, Okposo, O'Reilly, Kane, Skinner, etc.  

They tried to strengthen the 3rd and 4th lines with guys like Sheary, Johannsen, Simmonds, Vesey, Greenway. And kept re-signing Girgs.

They tried to round out the D with a mix of tough and talent with players like Mountour, Bogosian, Scandella, Miller, Jokiharu.

None of it has really worked. The fact that none of these acquisitions and rosters could even crack the top 8 of 16 teams in the East is embarrassing from a management standpoint. 

They absolutely hit on picks with NHL caliber talent more than I can name (Reinhart, Eichel, etc.)

What's my point here? I just think this franchise is in a HORRIBLE spot with FA and trade partners. I don't know if we can recover. If within the last 10 years this is all we can muster, and it still isn't anywhere close to what we need - what do we do? 

Few side points - I think the Eichel surgery dispute hurt this franchise WAY more than they thought it would. Multiple star players saying they lost their love of hockey here hurt way more than we imagined. Vet's that came (or got traded and refused to come/retired...or IE Staal) and left has soured the players in the league on Buffalo. The vibe alone at games is so bad why would you even come here if you're a 3rd liner on another team? So many players across the league have NTC's and they are NOT waiving it to come here.

The answer might be to sit and pray the young core can figure it out and win - cuz at least they don't have as much a say in where they are. I'm not confident.

Edited December 6 by ASlugAbove

[EM88]

37 minutes ago, ASlugAbove said:

Ever since Lucic ran Miller this team has been desperate to find an identity. They tried to get tougher and brought in guys like John Scott (lol) and Steve Ott. It didn't work.

They tried to bring in talent with guys like Taylor Hall, Okposo, O'Reilly, Kane, Skinner, etc.  

They tried to strengthen the 3rd and 4th lines with guys like Sheary, Johannsen, Simmonds, Vesey, Greenway. And kept re-signing Girgs.

They tried to round out the D with a mix of tough and talent with players like Mountour, Bogosian, Scandella, Miller, Jokiharu.

None of it has really worked. The fact that none of these acquisitions and rosters could even crack the top 8 of 16 teams in the East is embarrassing from a management standpoint. 

They absolutely hit on picks with NHL caliber talent more than I can name (Reinhart, Eichel, etc.)

What's my point here? I just think this franchise is in a HORRIBLE spot with FA and trade partners. I don't know if we can recover. If within the last 10 years this is all we can muster, and it still isn't anywhere close to what we need - what do we do? 

Few side points - I think the Eichel surgery dispute hurt this franchise WAY more than they thought it would. Multiple star players saying they lost their love of hockey here hurt way more than we imagined. Vet's that came (or got traded and refused to come/retired...or IE Staal) and left has soured the players in the league on Buffalo. The vibe alone at games is so bad why would you even come here if you're a 3rd liner on another team? So many players across the league have NTC's and they are NOT waiving it to come here.

The answer might be to sit and pray the young core can figure it out and win - cuz at least they don't have as much a say in where they are. I'm not confident.

A lot of what you say is true.

A counterpoint to think about.  It may get turned around not with a trade for a big name player. Not with another #1 overall pick.  Not with another new coach.  What may be needed is luck. Everyone stay healthy for the rest of the year, and be the team in the league that has more bounces go your way for a change than anyone else.  If that gets you in the playoffs, some pressure is off, your guys get playoff experience, and the next season you come back being even better for it.

13-14 years is a long time to be waiting for puck-luck to initiate something good. But when things do turn around, that might be just what does it.

[FrenchConnection44]

10 hours ago, ASlugAbove said:

Ever since Lucic ran Miller this team has been desperate to find an identity. They tried to get tougher and brought in guys like John Scott (lol) and Steve Ott. It didn't work.

They tried to bring in talent with guys like Taylor Hall, Okposo, O'Reilly, Kane, Skinner, etc.  

They tried to strengthen the 3rd and 4th lines with guys like Sheary, Johannsen, Simmonds, Vesey, Greenway. And kept re-signing Girgs.

They tried to round out the D with a mix of tough and talent with players like Mountour, Bogosian, Scandella, Miller, Jokiharu.

None of it has really worked. The fact that none of these acquisitions and rosters could even crack the top 8 of 16 teams in the East is embarrassing from a management standpoint. 

They absolutely hit on picks with NHL caliber talent more than I can name (Reinhart, Eichel, etc.)

What's my point here? I just think this franchise is in a HORRIBLE spot with FA and trade partners. I don't know if we can recover. If within the last 10 years this is all we can muster, and it still isn't anywhere close to what we need - what do we do? 

Few side points - I think the Eichel surgery dispute hurt this franchise WAY more than they thought it would. Multiple star players saying they lost their love of hockey here hurt way more than we imagined. Vet's that came (or got traded and refused to come/retired...or IE Staal) and left has soured the players in the league on Buffalo. The vibe alone at games is so bad why would you even come here if you're a 3rd liner on another team? So many players across the league have NTC's and they are NOT waiving it to come here.

The answer might be to sit and pray the young core can figure it out and win - cuz at least they don't have as much a say in where they are. I'm not confident.

Agreed. I said this near the end of last year. Buffalo is not an attractive team. If they had an identity, blue collar, we’re competitive (like, say, Carolina) then we might have something. But so many hockey players don’t want to come here when it’s a bad franchise and sink into oblivion when there are attractive cities and teams in the south. 

[JP51]

11 hours ago, ASlugAbove said:

Ever since Lucic ran Miller this team has been desperate to find an identity. They tried to get tougher and brought in guys like John Scott (lol) and Steve Ott. It didn't work.

They tried to bring in talent with guys like Taylor Hall, Okposo, O'Reilly, Kane, Skinner, etc.  

They tried to strengthen the 3rd and 4th lines with guys like Sheary, Johannsen, Simmonds, Vesey, Greenway. And kept re-signing Girgs.

They tried to round out the D with a mix of tough and talent with players like Mountour, Bogosian, Scandella, Miller, Jokiharu.

None of it has really worked. The fact that none of these acquisitions and rosters could even crack the top 8 of 16 teams in the East is embarrassing from a management standpoint. 

They absolutely hit on picks with NHL caliber talent more than I can name (Reinhart, Eichel, etc.)

What's my point here? I just think this franchise is in a HORRIBLE spot with FA and trade partners. I don't know if we can recover. If within the last 10 years this is all we can muster, and it still isn't anywhere close to what we need - what do we do? 

Few side points - I think the Eichel surgery dispute hurt this franchise WAY more than they thought it would. Multiple star players saying they lost their love of hockey here hurt way more than we imagined. Vet's that came (or got traded and refused to come/retired...or IE Staal) and left has soured the players in the league on Buffalo. The vibe alone at games is so bad why would you even come here if you're a 3rd liner on another team? So many players across the league have NTC's and they are NOT waiving it to come here.

The answer might be to sit and pray the young core can figure it out and win - cuz at least they don't have as much a say in where they are. I'm not confident.

Everything you say here is true... although I am not sure I am in line with the draft... I think you need to find stars outside of the Top 1 or 2 picks in the draft... looking back thru our history we have not and other teams do.

 

I think in the end... the entire regime needs to be changed and a competent GM that understands how build a real hockey team is put in... The Sabres have been chasing their tails and following late on the "Chic" NHL trends just as they are morphing to something else... Building a team with an effective balance of Skill, Goaltending, size, grit, and yes some nasty is always what works... you can augment that to trends as you go... but if you dont have that balance... include size and grit and nasty on your top lines then you are relagated to the ice capades to score... and 4th liners who go hit the other teams 4th liners..

 

Further, the defense needs way more nasty and that is in the top 4... (I am not talking about getting goons...) watching the game yesterday (where we didnt play poorly at all mostly) in the Dzone down low the Jets puck control was excellent, no one was afraid to get in the corner... and no one got hit... when you combine that with the fact that we cant win a faceoff and have to chase constantly, that is a bad combo.... 

Bottom line, the current regime can't or wont redo the culture... they are stuck with it... they built it... and it will require losing a significant portion of the top 6 core that just cant get it done... as well as the top 4 D core that is way too soft...  nor would I want them spearheading that change based on their insurmountable incompetence.  Then... there is Pegula... and thats where I slip into utter despair. 

[ASlugAbove]

2 hours ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

Agreed. I said this near the end of last year. Buffalo is not an attractive team. If they had an identity, blue collar, we’re competitive (like, say, Carolina) then we might have something. But so many hockey players don’t want to come here when it’s a bad franchise and sink into oblivion when there are attractive cities and teams in the south. 

Couldnt agree more.

[FrenchConnection44]

On 12/5/2024 at 10:25 PM, EM88 said:

A lot of what you say is true.

A counterpoint to think about.  It may get turned around not with a trade for a big name player. Not with another #1 overall pick.  Not with another new coach.  What may be needed is luck. Everyone stay healthy for the rest of the year, and be the team in the league that has more bounces go your way for a change than anyone else.  If that gets you in the playoffs, some pressure is off, your guys get playoff experience, and the next season you come back being even better for it.

13-14 years is a long time to be waiting for puck-luck to initiate something good. But when things do turn around, that might be just what does it.

We have drafted poorly and also been down at the wrong times. Missing out on McDavid - even though Eichel is a really good player, he’s not all time great - hurt. Then when we do get the top pick the best player on the board is Power. Who is clearly not a generational player. But several of our draft choices have not turned out. Dahlin is a very good player but he’s no Austin Matthews. 

But that 2021 draft with two 1st rounders and two 2nd rounders is not looking great. Really, just not a good draft. The Maple Leafs didn’t pick until 57th in that draft and they have gotten more productivity out of Knies than we have with 3 others ahead of him and there’s a question whether Power is better. We draft Rosen 14th - so far he’s played 8 NHL games. Wyatt Johnson has more goals and assists at the NHL level than Rosen has had in the AHL.

It’s like Adams doesn’t scout - he just follows the media boards. All our GMs and Adams particularly have been gifted a ton of great spots in the draft and have either come up short or been mediocre. Imagine Wyatt Johnson on the team? 

Bad fortune on the years we were the worst team, poor drafting so far, and an unappealing team or location to many other players for whom we might have traded or signed.

 

 

 

[EM88]

27 minutes ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

We have drafted poorly and also been down at the wrong times. Missing out on McDavid - even though Eichel is a really good player, he’s not all time great - hurt. Then when we do get the top pick the best player on the board is Power. Who is clearly not a generational player. But several of our draft choices have not turned out. Dahlin is a very good player but he’s no Austin Matthews. 

But that 2021 draft with two 1st rounders and two 2nd rounders is not looking great. Really, just not a good draft. The Maple Leafs didn’t pick until 57th in that draft and they have gotten more productivity out of Knies than we have with 3 others ahead of him and there’s a question whether Power is better. We draft Rosen 14th - so far he’s played 8 NHL games. Wyatt Johnson has more goals and assists at the NHL level than Rosen has had in the AHL.

It’s like Adams doesn’t scout - he just follows the media boards. All our GMs and Adams particularly have been gifted a ton of great spots in the draft and have either come up short or been mediocre. Imagine Wyatt Johnson on the team? 

Bad fortune on the years we were the worst team, poor drafting so far, and an unappealing team or location to many other players for whom we might have traded or signed.

 

 

 

I understand what you are saying. But from my point of view if the above bolded is the case, I do not think it is Adams, but rather the entire front office, because Adams does not and can not operate autonomously of the rest of them in the room.

The reason I lay off Adams a lot and at times defend him is I think he walked into a situation where, part of the reason he got the job, is he would deal with the limitations and restrictions of the job.  Those restrictions being as follows: Terry having input.  No one person making a decision, but it being more of a collaboration project.  Salary limitations, with the hockey department not spending to the cap until AFTER the revenue starts coming in better. 

Adams may be a good GM, he may be a bad one that is getting better, or he may just be a bad one. But there are so many possible variables that I do not know. The Sabres GM role seems to be to not be what a traditional NHL GM role is.  I am not saying other successful organizations do not have a GM that works without total power. I am saying the Sabres GM I truly think has less power and is just more the part of a machine than in others.  What I am confident in is this, he was not hired as GM and told by Pegula, here are the keys to the car, go take it for a ride. 

I think every trade, every draft pick, it is not just his way, it is all the top scouts and all the guys like him, Karmanos, Jakubowski, Forton, Nightingale, Ventura, and Pegula making those decisions. I think of Adams coordinates those meetings and having as much input as everyone else, but not a lot more. But I do not think for moment if Adams wants to draft "guy a", but Karmanos, Forton, and Pegula all like "guy b" that Adams gets his way. I think of that situation happened, the Sabres are getting "Guy b" as long as Adams does not totally 100% hate him.

To me the Sabres work as a watered down representative republic, with the GM having just slightly more power than those below him.  I want the system changed first, more than I want the guy who runs it changed.  If a change is made at the top and he is replaced from within, I do not see how the results of that timeline will be much different than the results would be of the timeline without a gm change.  That is unless the way the front office operates changes first, and that is up to Pegula.

I am not 100% against a GM change. I just do not think it will make much of a difference in and of itself. And I would rather Pegula actually give Adams the keys to the car, let him take it for a ride without any supervision, without anyone else in the car, and see what condition that car comes back in.  If it comes back a mangled wreck, then you make the change.

Edited December 7 by EM88

[bunomatic]

On 12/5/2024 at 8:25 PM, EM88 said:

A lot of what you say is true.

A counterpoint to think about.  It may get turned around not with a trade for a big name player. Not with another #1 overall pick.  Not with another new coach.  What may be needed is luck. Everyone stay healthy for the rest of the year, and be the team in the league that has more bounces go your way for a change than anyone else.  If that gets you in the playoffs, some pressure is off, your guys get playoff experience, and the next season you come back being even better for it.

13-14 years is a long time to be waiting for puck-luck to initiate something good. But when things do turn around, that might be just what does it.

Wishful thinking doesn’t win cups. Just my opinion but you have to go after it. You need staff and players with the same mindset. Not sure that exists on this team. Maybe one or two guys.I don’t see it.

[FrenchConnection44]

1 hour ago, EM88 said:

I understand what you are saying. But from my point of view if the above bolded is the case, I do not think it is Adams, but rather the entire front office, because Adams does not and can not operate autonomously of the rest of them in the room.

The reason I lay off Adams a lot and at times defend him is I think he walked into a situation where, part of the reason he got the job, is he would deal with the limitations and restrictions of the job.  Those restrictions being as follows: Terry having input.  No one person making a decision, but it being more of a collaboration project.  Salary limitations, with the hockey department not spending to the cap until AFTER the revenue starts coming in better. 

Adams may be a good GM, he may be a bad one that is getting better, or he may just be a bad one. But there are so many possible variables that I do not know. The Sabres GM role seems to be to not be what a traditional NHL GM role is.  I am not saying other successful organizations do not have a GM that works without total power. I am saying the Sabres GM I truly think has less power and is just more the part of a machine than in others.  What I am confident in is this, he was not hired as GM and told by Pegula, here are the keys to the car, go take it for a ride. 

I think every trade, every draft pick, it is not just his way, it is all the top scouts and all the guys like him, Karmanos, Jakubowski, Forton, Nightingale, Ventura, and Pegula making those decisions. I think of Adams coordinates those meetings and having as much input as everyone else, but not a lot more. But I do not think for moment if Adams wants to draft "guy a", but Karmanos, Forton, and Pegula all like "guy b" that Adams gets his way. I think of that situation happened, the Sabres are getting "Guy b" as long as Adams does not totally 100% hate him.

To me the Sabres work as a watered down representative republic, with the GM having just slightly more power than those below him.  I want the system changed first, more than I want the guy who runs it changed.  If a change is made at the top and he is replaced from within, I do not see how the results of that timeline will be much different than the results would be of the timeline without a gm change.  That is unless the way the front office operates changes first, and that is up to Pegula.

I am not 100% against a GM change. I just do not think it will make much of a difference in and of itself. And I would rather Pegula actually give Adams the keys to the car, let him take it for a ride without any supervision, without anyone else in the car, and see what condition that car comes back in.  If it comes back a mangled wreck, then you make the change.

Fair enough. 👍

[jad1]

3 hours ago, EM88 said:

I understand what you are saying. But from my point of view if the above bolded is the case, I do not think it is Adams, but rather the entire front office, because Adams does not and can not operate autonomously of the rest of them in the room.

The reason I lay off Adams a lot and at times defend him is I think he walked into a situation where, part of the reason he got the job, is he would deal with the limitations and restrictions of the job.  Those restrictions being as follows: Terry having input.  No one person making a decision, but it being more of a collaboration project.  Salary limitations, with the hockey department not spending to the cap until AFTER the revenue starts coming in better. 

Adams may be a good GM, he may be a bad one that is getting better, or he may just be a bad one. But there are so many possible variables that I do not know. The Sabres GM role seems to be to not be what a traditional NHL GM role is.  I am not saying other successful organizations do not have a GM that works without total power. I am saying the Sabres GM I truly think has less power and is just more the part of a machine than in others.  What I am confident in is this, he was not hired as GM and told by Pegula, here are the keys to the car, go take it for a ride. 

I think every trade, every draft pick, it is not just his way, it is all the top scouts and all the guys like him, Karmanos, Jakubowski, Forton, Nightingale, Ventura, and Pegula making those decisions. I think of Adams coordinates those meetings and having as much input as everyone else, but not a lot more. But I do not think for moment if Adams wants to draft "guy a", but Karmanos, Forton, and Pegula all like "guy b" that Adams gets his way. I think of that situation happened, the Sabres are getting "Guy b" as long as Adams does not totally 100% hate him.

To me the Sabres work as a watered down representative republic, with the GM having just slightly more power than those below him.  I want the system changed first, more than I want the guy who runs it changed.  If a change is made at the top and he is replaced from within, I do not see how the results of that timeline will be much different than the results would be of the timeline without a gm change.  That is unless the way the front office operates changes first, and that is up to Pegula.

I am not 100% against a GM change. I just do not think it will make much of a difference in and of itself. And I would rather Pegula actually give Adams the keys to the car, let him take it for a ride without any supervision, without anyone else in the car, and see what condition that car comes back in.  If it comes back a mangled wreck, then you make the change.

Adams has the keys to the car.  If Pegula had interfered in any way with Adams ability to do his job, you don't think he would have called it out in the press conference?  He blamed just about everything else for his failure (palm trees).

If there was an internal cap, or he had to protect the owner's favorite players, you don't think this weasel would have said something?  'Jack Quinn is very important to this organization, and the feeling is that he needs every opportunity to grow and learn at the NHL level.'

Adams said that these were HIS guys, who he would be happy to go to war with.  He said that HE knows how to win a Stanley Cup.  He said that the owner has put no constraints on his management of the team.

Believe him.  This IS Adams team.  

 

[DarthEbriate]

23 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Adams has the keys to the car.  If Pegula had interfered in any way with Adams ability to do his job, you don't think he would have called it out in the press conference?  He blamed just about everything else for his failure (palm trees).

If there was an internal cap, or he had to protect the owner's favorite players, you don't think this weasel would have said something?  'Jack Quinn is very important to this organization, and the feeling is that he needs every opportunity to grow and learn at the NHL level.'

Adams said that these were HIS guys, who he would be happy to go to war with.  He said that HE knows how to win a Stanley Cup.  He said that the owner has put no constraints on his management of the team.

Believe him.  This IS Adams team.  

He needs every opportunity to grow and learn at the NHL level because he'd instantly be claimed off waivers, then placed on a 3rd or 4th line alongside a veteran center and a heavy-crashing left wing. And in a year or so, you'd see him move up the lineup and start hitting 20-40-60 as expected.

Edited December 7 by DarthEbriate

[jad1]

11 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

He needs every opportunity to grow and learn at the NHL level because he'd instantly be claimed off waivers, then placed on a 3rd or 4th line alongside a veteran center and a heavy-crashing left wing. And in a year or so, you'd see him move up the lineup and start hitting 20-40-60 as expected.

I was only using that as an example of something Adams would say to hint that Pegula was meddling to protect one of his  favored players (which I don't think Pegula is doing).

But what you say is true and you have to wonder why Adams hasn't identified this as a need for the Sabres.

[EM88]

2 hours ago, jad1 said:

Adams has the keys to the car.  If Pegula had interfered in any way with Adams ability to do his job, you don't think he would have called it out in the press conference?  He blamed just about everything else for his failure (palm trees).

If there was an internal cap, or he had to protect the owner's favorite players, you don't think this weasel would have said something?  'Jack Quinn is very important to this organization, and the feeling is that he needs every opportunity to grow and learn at the NHL level.'

Adams said that these were HIS guys, who he would be happy to go to war with.  He said that HE knows how to win a Stanley Cup.  He said that the owner has put no constraints on his management of the team.

Believe him.  This IS Adams team.  

 

No, not at all I do not. That is how he got the job and keep his job.

Botts got fired for not following the Pegula's orders.  

Adams knows that. Adams saw that. In no way has he been given keys to the car, in no way, shape, or form.

This is not Adams team at all. The Sabres are Adams team less than just about any other team is their GM's team.

[jad1]

25 minutes ago, EM88 said:

No, not at all I do not. That is how he got the job and keep his job.

Botts got fired for not following the Pegula's orders.  

Adams knows that. Adams saw that. In no way has he been given keys to the car, in no way, shape, or form.

This is not Adams team at all. The Sabres are Adams team less than just about any other team is their GM's team.

Botts got fired because Terry did his year end review and got input from Adams.  Of course Adams sold him on the idea that he could do a better job than Botts.

It's just difficult to believe that Pegula is completely hands off in regards to the Bills and completely hands on with the Sabres.  Especially since the Bills have been demonstrably better run than the Sabres.

But let's say you're right.  Adams is Terry's tool and has spent the last five years implementing Pegula's disastrous plan while Pegula hides and takes no responsibility for the team's fortunes.  Do you really that Adams would stick around for that?  Where's the benefit to him and his career?  What kind of pathetic loser would Adams have to be to be nothing more than a mouthpiece for the worst run franchise in the NHL.  

It's just hard to fathom. Occam’s razor is that Terry is an absentee owner who leaves decision making to the GMs.  He's not really that good at hiring GMs, but got lucky with Beane.  He's heard the criticism that he's too quick to fire staff, so he's giving Adams the benefit of the doubt via extra time, and Adams is really good at spinning the facts to Pegula to buy himself more time (palm trees).

 

Edited December 7 by jad1