Pegula-Era Sabres: (Grit+Tenacity)/Skill

[DarthEbriate]

It's an age-old discussion, but bringing into its own thread because it can take over every other thread. Prefacing with @Carmel Corn's poorly constructed roster comment and these responses:

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yup. Since Pegula took over they have never valued grinders, muckers, checkers, 2 way guys with grit, whatever you want to call them. Last 2 years there's been a small recognition of this and so they've brought in Greenway, Malentstyn, Gilbert, but nothing for the core really. Nothing substantial. It's a long standing mistake most exemplified by trading away Foligno. 

You need a balanced roster and you need toughness with your speed and finesse. It's never really been any different and why they haven't got that is beyond me (but likely because of Pegula and what he wants and values).

Pegula was definitely a playoff flavor-of-the-month hunter: Ehrhoff (underrated here, but a solid 2nd pair/PP1 guy) and Leino (good for one series against us). But he was also pretty gung-ho on Regehr, who was tough and balanced. But then, when the centers all dried up and the decision was made to tank....    And Foligno, yes, which brings us to here.

56 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I mean... this is just false. Since the Lucic hit on Miller the Sabres have continually chased these types of players. Steve Ott, John Scott, Nick Deslauriers, ROR, Evander Kane, Zach Bogosian, Jordan Greenway, Wayne Simmonds, Connor Clifton, Beck Malenstyn, Sam Lafferty, Aube-Kubel, a host of other 4th line and bottom pairing guys over the years. I don't think it has been "not valuing grinders" I think it is "not having enough talent". 

I have had this argument forever on here. Countless fans, numbers untold, state Buffalo just needs to be grittier, tougher, whatever word you want. If it only were so simple. 

I think the real issue at hand here is, they're all, every one of them: outsiders brought in. Foligno is one of these guys, was young, local and cost-controlled, and was given away for the population of Pominville. Maybe if someone offers you 2 firsts for him.

But here it's been "savior grinder!" or in the John Scott case "savior goon!". In the case of ROR (totally worth it and played his role perfectly), Kane, and Bogo, they gave up a ton to get each of them. And none of the others are top-6 or top-pair guys, though Kane and Bogo could've been based on draft position/talent, but by the time they were Sabres it was clear that's not who they were.

In post-Regier drafts beginning in 2014, in the first and second rounds, the guys you assume will play in the NHL, they've sometimes drafted tenacity -- but often ignored it or went for defensively-responsible, or simply took the de facto player available (and Dahlin, Eichel, and Reinhart all have added grit to their games). And when they have gone that route at forward, it's rarely a 6-2 who projects to 200+# guy. From 2014-2020, the forwards who now would be the heart and core of your lineup... they aren't on the team. Or are playing a line (JJP) too high for their age/consistency.

The good news? Lately, they have started to draft for tenacity in the 1st and 2nd round (Karmanos and co.), it's just that those players aren't ready for the big show yet.

2014: Reinhart (not super tenacious, but definitely gritty on offense once he filled out, and always a nose for the net); Lemieux (gritty - but apparently refused to play for the Sabres), Cornel (nope), Karabacek (nope).

2015: Eichel (obvious pick); Guhle (nope)

2016: Nylander (nope); Asplund (a defensive-minded forward, but not especially tenacious and definitely not gritty)

2017: Mitts (learned to reverse-check and battle on the boards, but wasn't drafted as such); Davidsson (known at the time of draft as a tenacious PK/3C potential - but busted); Luukkonen - goalie!

2018: Dahlin (learned to); Samuelsson (physical, though not especially tenacious, until his body started breaking)

2019: Cozens (tenacious as a draft prospect; and could still pan out as such, but he's a line too high and he's always the oldest player on his line); Johnson (defensive technician, but not tenacious necessarily, not gritty)

2020: Quinn (was physically engaged, but have injuries already derailed it?); JJP (tenacious, but not overly physical)

2021: Power (obvious pick, but I think we'd all agree is neither gritty nor tenacious. High-end skill though); Rosen (maybe a bit tenacious at the AHL level, just not ready for the NHL); Poltapov (tenacious, but timeline 2 years away); Kisakov (nope!)

-- still too recent to know for sure --

2022: Savoie (tenacious, not necessarily intimidating); Östlund (defensively responsible as a prospect; smaller); Kulich (improving 200' game, and growing tenacity)

2023: Benson (tenacity incarnate!, but can be overpowered); Wahlberg (known more for skill than grit, but has size); Strbak (definitely gritty)

2024: Helenius (seems tenacious); Kleber (seems physical); Bonus: Ziemer (definitely tenacious).

[mjd1001]

Tenacity and grit...I'm not sure what the definition of those things are or how they translate to wins.  I'll say this, I wish this team had ONE heavyweight to drop the gloves with anyone that had enough skill to play a regular shift.  Just give us one, is that too much to ask? So yeah, I want that.

But in terms of everyone else, yeah, some guys have it some guys don't. Most teams are like that.  But that isn't the only issue with this team:

We keep hearing that Lindy says to them "you are going to lose games, just don't let one loss turn into a losing streak"  Yeah. This team has 13 losses.  Nearly half of them (6 of them) have come in their two 3-game losing streaks.  In those 6 games, they have scored the following: 1 goal, 1 goal, 1 goal, 0 goals, 3 goals, 0 goals.

As much as this team needs more 'tenacity' and 'grit'....more than that they need more scoring out of Cozens and Quinn.  The team is "OK" when Tage gets on a role, but you shouldn't have to expect him to play like a 50-60 goal scorer all the time just to score enough to make the playoffs. He's not a $14m per year player. He is a $7m per year player. You need offense from some other places.

This team gets shots. They are near the middle of the league last time I checked in terms of quality scoring chances.  They are good enough in terms of how many goals they allow. I'm not sure how much more 'grit and tenacity' help, vs having your current guys be slightly better at converting their chances.

Edited December 2 by mjd1001

[Night Train]

Pegula hired Beane for the Bills and got out of the way once they showed improvement and winning. Stability. 

He hasn't found that person for hockey yet and the results prove that out. 

People posting thoughts on what TP likes in roster makeup are creating a baseless narrative. The people he puts in charge have failed. Find your Beane for hockey. 

[mjd1001]

8 minutes ago, Night Train said:

Pegula hired Beane for the Bills and got out of the way once they showed improvement and winning. Stability. 

He hasn't found that person for hockey yet and the results prove that out. 

People posting thoughts on what TP likes in roster makeup are creating a baseless narrative. The people he puts in charge have failed. Find your Beane for hockey. 

Again, he has been active in the decision making for the Sabres, even on personal decisions.

I'm not going to run though it again on here, but in several recent threads, there are stories, quotes directly from him, that he doesn't WANT to get out of the way  in Hockey. He wants to, and continues to be directly involved in many (not all, I'm sure not picking one 4th liner over the other) hockey decisions.

[Night Train]

28 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Again, he has been active in the decision making for the Sabres, even on personal decisions.

I'm not going to run though it again on here, but in several recent threads, there are stories, quotes directly from him, that he doesn't WANT to get out of the way  in Hockey. He wants to, and continues to be directly involved in many (not all, I'm sure not picking one 4th liner over the other) hockey decisions.

I believe it when it comes to contracts/finances. Little else. 

[Taro T]

IMHO there is a big reason WHY the team is in what could end up year 14 of a playoff drought.  (With the exception of the current GM's tenure) ever since Pegula has owned the team, he has changed directions within 3 seasons and hired guys that have a significantly different plan for how to build a team and none of them are complementary to what the previous guy was doing so each new GM ends up effectively starting from scratch vs what the previous guy was building.

Pegula started out big on bringing in FA's to supplement what was already here but abandoned that almost immediately for a scorched earth multiyear tank and rebuild.  Regier accumulated a ton of prospects and picks and also iced one of the worst teams in NHL history in doing so.  Murray was brought in to complete the tank and then accelerate the rebuild.  He wanted to follow the LA Kings model with a big hard forechecking squad.

He was out after Bylsma's 2nd season was a step back.  Botterill was brought in to change the direction (and winning the Dahlin lottery gave him the cover (or whatever you want to call it) to move on from O'Reilly) and he wanted more of a speed team.  He fell out of favor and was replaced by Adams who started out trying (half-heartedly?) to build around the original tank fruit but when that season blew up in the revenue-restricted COVID season, he was given the go ahead to go back to more of Regier's vision for the original tank - rebuild with skilled youth.

This team's issue, again IMHO, ISN'T Skill vs Grit, it is they're still the youngest team in the league; that will necessarily bring growing pains with it.  Are the kids, who are still young but experienced for their youth having been brought up to the NHL a season or 2 (or 3) years earlier than most franchises would've brought them up, experienced enough to overcome their youth now that (except on the PP particularly and on entries in general) they have an experienced coach with actual NHL caliber plans directing them?  The jury is still out as they continue to flirt with being just out, then just in, then just out, then just in a playoff position again and so on and so forth.  They seem to be learning how to play the way Ruff wants them to play and also seem to be getting NHL goaltending reasonably consistently for the 1st time since Miller was traded.  (Ullmark's brief flashes weren't nearly often enough as he was out of the lineup too often.)  But they are also still very young and have issues getting the puck to the net against heavy teams.

Desperately want to see them make the playoffs this year; in large part because do not want to see them blow it up AGAIN and move into a different direction right when (some of) the kids are actually getting close to not being kids anymore.  Honestly suspect they won't blow the team up if they miss but are close; but even if that's the case, am REALLY sick of not getting to watch OUR team play beyond tax day.  AND, if they miss and don't blow it up, there is NO guarantee that NEXT YEAR would finally be the charm.  Either way, this perpetual Ground Hog's Day we've lived through for well over a dozen year needs to friggin' end.

Still want to see a true top 4 defensive D-man brought in (the kind Samuelsson was SUPPOSED to be and Granato for no apparent reason believed Jokiharju was/is).  IF they make that move, then 1 more F for the top 6 would be the next item on the list.  The acquisition of McLeod shows that Adams doesn't have to destroy the pipeline to bring in a guy that can help today AND in the future.  And their need to run Kulich at all of 20 (21?) yo as the 3C highlights that the team needs to make 1 more move up front, preferrably right after making that move for the 4th top 4 D-man.

[steveoat87]

55 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IMHO there is a big reason WHY the team is in what could end up year 14 of a playoff drought.  (With the exception of the current GM's tenure) ever since Pegula has owned the team, he has changed directions within 3 seasons and hired guys that have a significantly different plan for how to build a team and none of them are complementary to what the previous guy was doing so each new GM ends up effectively starting from scratch vs what the previous guy was building.

Pegula started out big on bringing in FA's to supplement what was already here but abandoned that almost immediately for a scorched earth multiyear tank and rebuild.  Regier accumulated a ton of prospects and picks and also iced one of the worst teams in NHL history in doing so.  Murray was brought in to complete the tank and then accelerate the rebuild.  He wanted to follow the LA Kings model with a big hard forechecking squad.

He was out after Bylsma's 2nd season was a step back.  Botterill was brought in to change the direction (and winning the Dahlin lottery gave him the cover (or whatever you want to call it) to move on from O'Reilly) and he wanted more of a speed team.  He fell out of favor and was replaced by Adams who started out trying (half-heartedly?) to build around the original tank fruit but when that season blew up in the revenue-restricted COVID season, he was given the go ahead to go back to more of Regier's vision for the original tank - rebuild with skilled youth.

This team's issue, again IMHO, ISN'T Skill vs Grit, it is they're still the youngest team in the league; that will necessarily bring growing pains with it.  Are the kids, who are still young but experienced for their youth having been brought up to the NHL a season or 2 (or 3) years earlier than most franchises would've brought them up, experienced enough to overcome their youth now that (except on the PP particularly and on entries in general) they have an experienced coach with actual NHL caliber plans directing them?  The jury is still out as they continue to flirt with being just out, then just in, then just out, then just in a playoff position again and so on and so forth.  They seem to be learning how to play the way Ruff wants them to play and also seem to be getting NHL goaltending reasonably consistently for the 1st time since Miller was traded.  (Ullmark's brief flashes weren't nearly often enough as he was out of the lineup too often.)  But they are also still very young and have issues getting the puck to the net against heavy teams.

Desperately want to see them make the playoffs this year; in large part because do not want to see them blow it up AGAIN and move into a different direction right when (some of) the kids are actually getting close to not being kids anymore.  Honestly suspect they won't blow the team up if they miss but are close; but even if that's the case, am REALLY sick of not getting to watch OUR team play beyond tax day.  AND, if they miss and don't blow it up, there is NO guarantee that NEXT YEAR would finally be the charm.  Either way, this perpetual Ground Hog's Day we've lived through for well over a dozen year needs to friggin' end.

Still want to see a true top 4 defensive D-man brought in (the kind Samuelsson was SUPPOSED to be and Granato for no apparent reason believed Jokiharju was/is).  IF they make that move, then 1 more F for the top 6 would be the next item on the list.  The acquisition of McLeod shows that Adams doesn't have to destroy the pipeline to bring in a guy that can help today AND in the future.  And their need to run Kulich at all of 20 (21?) yo as the 3C highlights that the team needs to make 1 more move up front, preferrably right after making that move for the 4th top 4 D-man.

Good post.  Right before Beane an McDermott, the Bills went through a version of this.  Was the hiring of McDermott and Beane pure luck or was Kim a more positive influence then (unfortunately that no longer currently applies).  I know there are people above Adams in the organization and maybe they will take a more active part.  To me, this year's team is better than last years, but they are still adjusting to a new system and still have very young players.  The coaching improvement is definite, but he has to have them unlearn alot of bad habits encouraged by Granato.  I guess time will tell.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Tenacity and grit...I'm not sure what the definition of those things are or how they translate to wins. 

I will give you the definition, and it has nothing to do with fighting. Yes, gritty hard nosed players are generally tougher and more ready and willing to drop them, but it's not what determines tenacity and grit. 

What it is is going after a loose puck and/or hounding an opponent who has the puck. Going after it regardless of how big or tough the opponent near it is. Going for it and not giving up on going for it until there's a whistle or a goal. Moving past and through a defender who wants to use his physicality to keep you from it. Being relentless in that pursuit and taking the contact, the bumps and the bruises along the way. 

It's also initiating some of that contact to intimidate the opposition and have them back off, or at least throw off their timing and puck movement rather than just defending in a passive manner that only plays the puck and not the body. 

It's Benson. But Benson is small and young so he has limited effectiveness. If the big bodies on this team played with Benson's tenacity and grit this team would be a force, but it's not. It has speed, skill and offensive potential but it's soft as butter and will never win in the playoffs with that if it can ever even get there.

It's also Greenway, but only sometimes. When he is that guy he's effective but he's only occasionally that guy and often he just doesn't seem to care and I guess he's injury prone or ? (no idea but he's out a lot in the time we've had him).

It's no one else on a consistent basis. 

[Slack_in_MA]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Tenacity and grit...I'm not sure what the definition of those things are or how they translate to wins. 

In my mind, tenacity and grit aren't attributes measured by the "fancy stats"-- they are intangibles that are subjective elements of the eyeball test. 

It's like the old saying that "Not everything that counts can be measured, and not everything that can be measured, counts".

Part of tenacity and grit are physical (using the body, going hard to the net, taking a beating in front of the net, clearing the front of our net), but what drives that is the mental part. I also believe they are contagious, as are their opposites (e.g., laziness, apathy, timidity, passivity).

As to how they translate into wins, I believe they can result in creating turnovers and intimidating the opponent, which in turn can result in better scoring chances and wins.

Can I prove it with data? No. But I'd argue that the vast majority of Stanley Cup champion teams are not made up simply of skilled shooters and skaters. They are physical and hard to play against also.

My $.02

Edited December 2 by Slack_in_MA

[Stoner]

"I like hard working, gritty players." TP 2/22/11. Now why would an owner with no intent to meddle say something like that? Why not, My goodness, that'll be up to the GM.

The answer was there on Day One.

 

[Pimlach]

20 hours ago, Night Train said:

Pegula hired Beane for the Bills and got out of the way once they showed improvement and winning. Stability. 

He hasn't found that person for hockey yet and the results prove that out. 

People posting thoughts on what TP likes in roster makeup are creating a baseless narrative. The people he puts in charge have failed. Find your Beane for hockey. 

I agree that the roster make up is not on Pegula. It just isn't.  

But as far as hiring a Beane type of GM - TP did not ever put restrictions on Beane's internal staff or his cap management.  From day one Adams had to sharply reduce scouting and front office hockey staff, eventually he was allowed to slowly re-structure it (bringing in analytics emphasis) and bring in some help.  Worse, Pegula imposed an internal cap.   They operated at the cap floor for two seasons, and they are still below cap in this second "playoffs or bust" season.  

Given the constraints on Adams, what Brandon Beane Quality GM was going to sign up for that? 

Edited December 3 by Pimlach

[GoPuckYourself]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

IMHO there is a big reason WHY the team is in what could end up year 14 of a playoff drought.  (With the exception of the current GM's tenure) ever since Pegula has owned the team, he has changed directions within 3 seasons and hired guys that have a significantly different plan for how to build a team and none of them are complementary to what the previous guy was doing so each new GM ends up effectively starting from scratch vs what the previous guy was building.

Pegula started out big on bringing in FA's to supplement what was already here but abandoned that almost immediately for a scorched earth multiyear tank and rebuild.  Regier accumulated a ton of prospects and picks and also iced one of the worst teams in NHL history in doing so.  Murray was brought in to complete the tank and then accelerate the rebuild.  He wanted to follow the LA Kings model with a big hard forechecking squad.

He was out after Bylsma's 2nd season was a step back.  Botterill was brought in to change the direction (and winning the Dahlin lottery gave him the cover (or whatever you want to call it) to move on from O'Reilly) and he wanted more of a speed team.  He fell out of favor and was replaced by Adams who started out trying (half-heartedly?) to build around the original tank fruit but when that season blew up in the revenue-restricted COVID season, he was given the go ahead to go back to more of Regier's vision for the original tank - rebuild with skilled youth.

This team's issue, again IMHO, ISN'T Skill vs Grit, it is they're still the youngest team in the league; that will necessarily bring growing pains with it.  Are the kids, who are still young but experienced for their youth having been brought up to the NHL a season or 2 (or 3) years earlier than most franchises would've brought them up, experienced enough to overcome their youth now that (except on the PP particularly and on entries in general) they have an experienced coach with actual NHL caliber plans directing them?  The jury is still out as they continue to flirt with being just out, then just in, then just out, then just in a playoff position again and so on and so forth.  They seem to be learning how to play the way Ruff wants them to play and also seem to be getting NHL goaltending reasonably consistently for the 1st time since Miller was traded.  (Ullmark's brief flashes weren't nearly often enough as he was out of the lineup too often.)  But they are also still very young and have issues getting the puck to the net against heavy teams.

Desperately want to see them make the playoffs this year; in large part because do not want to see them blow it up AGAIN and move into a different direction right when (some of) the kids are actually getting close to not being kids anymore.  Honestly suspect they won't blow the team up if they miss but are close; but even if that's the case, am REALLY sick of not getting to watch OUR team play beyond tax day.  AND, if they miss and don't blow it up, there is NO guarantee that NEXT YEAR would finally be the charm.  Either way, this perpetual Ground Hog's Day we've lived through for well over a dozen year needs to friggin' end.

Still want to see a true top 4 defensive D-man brought in (the kind Samuelsson was SUPPOSED to be and Granato for no apparent reason believed Jokiharju was/is).  IF they make that move, then 1 more F for the top 6 would be the next item on the list.  The acquisition of McLeod shows that Adams doesn't have to destroy the pipeline to bring in a guy that can help today AND in the future.  And their need to run Kulich at all of 20 (21?) yo as the 3C highlights that the team needs to make 1 more move up front, preferrably right after making that move for the 4th top 4 D-man.

Well if we're going to keep using the whole "We're the youngest team in hockey" schtik every season let's get rid of some of these kids and add some guys a few years older. Quinn, Rosen, Samuelsson (when he's finally healthy), Dylan Cozens. I mean package these guys with picks and get some players who contribute then we don't have to hear the built in excuse from the HC and players.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Stoner said:

"I like hard working, gritty players." TP 2/22/11. Now why would an owner with no intent to meddle say something like that? Why not, My goodness, that'll be up to the GM.

The answer was there on Day One.

 

If that’s the case on both accounts (he meddles and he likes grit), why hasn’t it materialized?  

[SwampD]

We have gotten rid of every leading scorer or captain this team has had since he showed up. We’ve been the youngest team in the league for how long now. There is a reason. It tells me that it’s about money when we were sold that it absolutely wasn’t.

All I know is that someone better start scoring soon, because there is absolutely no reason to watch right now and certainly no reason to go to a game, I mean, unless you like leaving angry and wasting your money.

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

We have gotten rid of every leading scorer or captain this team has had since he showed up. We’ve been the youngest team in the league for how long now. There is a reason. It tells me that it’s about money when we were sold that it absolutely wasn’t.

All I know is that someone better start scoring soon, because there is absolutely no reason to watch right now and certainly no reason to go to a game, I mean, unless you like leaving angry and wasting your money.

It's very unlikely to be money based for the vast majority of those cases. It doesn't logically sync up with signing an Eichel to 10mil+ a year or ROR to a 7+ mil contract 

It's far more likely to be more related to perceived value. Pegula has never been shy about spending money; but he has a very orthodox way of deciding after the fact if the player is living up to the money. ROR hitting a Tim Horton's and fleeing the scene drunk within a month of signing soured Pegula to the player and only needed a nudge by Botts to be good with moving him. That being said he had no interest in paying a player a dime after they left if they weren't playing for him anymore. Eichel asked out and thus became a persona non grata instantaneously, hence at least part of the surgery issues.

He's become a tad overly fickle over time and has clutched his pearls and wallet more over time but I don't have any fear he would pay a guy their asking price. (That being said I do think he's very hesitant to offer money to UFAs after the Leino debacle.

[mjd1001]

I "Love" all the eyerolls on any comments sayhing the issue is more Pegula than Adams,  and the people looking to pin all of this on Adams.  Wake up.

Pegs has had 4 different GM's.  8 different 'coaching teams' (Ruff now here 2 times).  He's made a lot of moves in the front office.  Multiple 'presidents'.  He's the constant.

Turning a blind eye to the real problem, its obvious, its been Pegula.  Adams might be awful at being a GM, he might be OK, he might be good, he might be bad but getting better but still 'not good'. Doesn't matter.  Pegula is the issue and if he doesn't change how he does things, any turnaround or march into the playoff is going to continue to be a lot harder simply because of him.

Edited December 3 by mjd1001

[Carmel Corn]

I want to see more players added who have a genuine “mean streak” that is hardwired into their psyche.  You can’t necessarily teach this and some players develop some of this over time (ex. Dahlin).  I want players who don’t hesitate to initiate hits and immediately retaliate for a teammate.  I’m not talking goons, but rather players who run to the conflict vs. shy away from it.

[JP51]

19 hours ago, Night Train said:

Pegula hired Beane for the Bills and got out of the way once they showed improvement and winning. Stability. 

He hasn't found that person for hockey yet and the results prove that out. 

People posting thoughts on what TP likes in roster makeup are creating a baseless narrative. The people he puts in charge have failed. Find your Beane for hockey. 

This... 

[FrenchConnection44]

I don’t disagree about Pegula. He’s putting all his resources into the Bills and the stadium and doesn’t show good ownership leadership for the Sabres. He also, frankly, got fortunate with Josh Allen. A lot of high rated QBs have been drafted higher and panned out worse. Without Allen, the Bills are a .500 team. He is a stumbling block for the franchise  

But we can’t discount the problems with Adams. He’s had 5 drafts and 4 1/2 years. His best draft was the first one (Quinn/Peterka). Has to be scrutinized heavily at the end of this season. 
 

 

[SwampD]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

So what! Our GM talks to him on a daily basis. There's nothing wrong with that. Our owner knows little about the players in the league. It's the GM who is having the trade discussions with the other GMs about possible trades. It's the GM who ultimately makes the roster decisions and determines how it is constructed. There's no question that the GM tells the owner what he is thinking and what he wants to do. Apparently, you disagree, but for me it is the befuddled GM who has made the hockey decisions that kept this franchise in hockey irrelevancy during his mediocre tenure.

The unwise owner hired a novice for a critical job that no other owner in the league would even entertain for an interview. That's the central point. With the Bills, he belatedly hired a quality coach and GM. The outcome has been terrific. Until he gets the right man at the helm of the hockey operation, this irrelevant franchise will continue to struggle.

I agree with you that the owner's lower cap limit has handcuffed the hockey operations. His "penny" wise and "dollar" foolish has ended up hurting his revenue tally. How smart is that?  Don't misinterpret my judgment on this owner. He's clueless about the league and what it takes to be a success in such a competitive endeavor. There's plenty to criticize here. It's like shooting at fish in a barrel. 

Just curious, why do we get push back, then, from you and others, when we criticize Terry. His ownership will go down in NHL history as the worst ever.

[Pimlach]

13 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Well if we're going to keep using the whole "We're the youngest team in hockey" schtik every season let's get rid of some of these kids and add some guys a few years older. Quinn, Rosen, Samuelsson (when he's finally healthy), Dylan Cozens. I mean package these guys with picks and get some players who contribute then we don't have to hear the built in excuse from the HC and players.

This is precisely what needs to be done.  They also have to overcome the no trade clause issues to make fair trades because some of the vets we need to add are likely to have them.  I posted a quote from the Athletic about this, the NMC issue is real and Buffalo is an NHL destination that is undesirable right now.  McDermott fixed that problem for the Bills, can the Sabres change?  

What is sad is they made Cozens and Samuelsson alternate Captains.  Why they needed 4 guys with A's is hard to understand.   Cozens especially does not need to carry any more weight, he needs to play freely.  

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Just curious, why do we get push back, then, from you and others, when we criticize Terry. His ownership will go down in NHL history as the worst ever.

You are way off the mark regarding my assessment of Terry P. To put it bluntly, he's an incompetent owner who lacks the self-awareness to recognize how little he knows about owning and directing a hockey franchise. Billionaire hubris will do that to you. His record is his record. He's a loser. I'm not saying otherwise. If you don't know that I recognize how putrid his stewardship of this staggering franchise is, then you haven't closely followed and interpreted my comments about him.  

[JP51]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

This is precisely what needs to be done.  They also have to overcome the no trade clause issues to make fair trades because some of the vets we need to add are likely to have them.  I posted a quote from the Athletic about this, the NMC issue is real and Buffalo is an NHL destination that is undesirable right now.  McDermott fixed that problem for the Bills, can the Sabres change?  

What is sad is they made Cozens and Samuelsson alternate Captains.  Why they needed 4 guys with A's is hard to understand.   Cozens especially does not need to carry any more weight, he needs to play freely.  

My only problem is that I dont want Adams doing it... I have no faith in his ability to understand hockey and how a team needs to be built, he should go back to managing the bathroom upgrade project in the arena. 

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, JP51 said:

My only problem is that I dont want Adams doing it... I have no faith in his ability to understand hockey and how a team needs to be built, he should go back to managing the bathroom upgrade project in the arena. 

I'd be more than happy having Adams make a trade if Pegula is out of the area and the trade can be made without his input/oversight/suggestions/opinions.

[EM88]

Just now, mjd1001 said:

I'd be more than happy having Adams make a trade if Pegula is out of the area and the trade can be made without his input/oversight/suggestions/opinions.

100% agree on that. But we will not get that. He is the owner, if he wants in on the discussions he will get that.