GDT: Islanders @ Sabres 11/1/2024, 7:00 PM EDT; MSG, ESPN+, WGR

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, CallawaySabres said:

Is this the worst team in all 4 professional sports leagues? I think you have to say yes, and it’s not really close.

Its more specifically Pegula.

It depends on what you define as the 'worst team'.  Worst team right now? if not worst team over what length of time?

-As of this moment, there is NO WAY they are worse than the Detroit Pistons. The pistons are 1-6 this year, and last year they were 14-68 (thats 28 'points' over an equal length 82 game season).

-In the NFL, the Panthers are worse by far. The Sabres, can, and Will go out on occasion and beat a top team like Dallas, or Florida. Carolina is clearly losing when they play any of the top 5-8 teams, no contest.

-And Baseball, where even good/great teams can lose 60+ games in a year and bad teams win 65-70 in a year, you have the Chicago White Sox. 41 wins. 121 losses. So no, the Sabres are no where near as bad.

 

Now, if you want to talk worst FRANCHISE overall, to me its clearly yes, they are the worst run/owned franchise since the day Pegula took over.  The team slid into the playoffs right after he bought in on a team/roster had had nothing to do with, but since his first full year owning the team 14 years in a row without playoffs.

Statistically I worked it out in a previous thread, but what are the odds of any team going 14 straight years without a single playoff appearance?  About 1 in 22,000.

Under Pegula:

-8 different coaching groups.

-Several changes in upper management (team president, business side, ect.)

-4 different GM's

-An arena that has fallen drastically behind all the other arenas in the league built in the same time frame

-Whenever things get really bad, he lets his GM/coaches/staff/players take the arrows and he is never around to face any tough questions

-From basically "will spend whatever is needed" and "no budget" to being one of the stingiest spending teams in the league.

-20 first round picks since he has been owner. 15 of them in the top 15. 10 of them in the top 10. 4 of them top 2 overall, 2 first overall.

--Now, Statistically the odds may be about 1 in 22,000 that you miss the playoffs 14 years in a row under 'average' circumstances, but tell me just how much worse it is when you have all the above draft capital and you SILL miss it 14 years in a row?

-It appears he is less likely to fire someone when they perform badly, but more likely when he simply doesn't agree with them or he isn't 'comfortable' around them. Screw up all day but kiss his ring and you are fine.  Tell him "how things really are" and you are out of here.

So, there has never been a franchise in any major sport, now or ever, that has probably been run as poorly as Pegula has run this one since he took over it.  They have had experienced coaches, rookie coaches. Coaches who won cups before. Coaches who were the 'hot assistants'. Coaches where were former coaches of the year with this franchise he brought back (TWICE).  He's had a GM that had success with this team. 2 (at the time) respected GM candidates he hired from outside. Now Adams.

Pegula is the constant.  Every single player traded wasn't the wrong player. Every single coach fired wasn't an awful Coach. Every GM they moved on from was not the problem.  Pegula has been, and still is, the problem.  You can fire Ruff and Adams, but Pegula isn't going to bring in the BEST replacements, he is going to bring in who he is comfortable with. He'll bring in someone that makes him feel like he is heard.Tthat will tell him what he wants to hear. Someone that will take the arrows for him when things go bad. And worst, that will let him do what he wants to do because he thinks he is smarter about hockey than he actually is. Again, Its Pegula.

Edited November 2 by mjd1001

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

All this with 3 full days of rest against a non-playoff team missing two top-6 forwards in Barzal and Duclair, and down two defensemen for most of the game and a third defenseman who missed ice time and returned.

Zucker and a veteran Zucker-caliber defenseman needed to be acquired 2 years ago when the current "leaders" were still hungry.

You missed that they were playing at home too.   

They stayed with Okposo and Girgensons as the veteran leaders.  

Zucker can only do so much.  

[Pimlach]

7 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Its more specifically Pegula.

It depends on what you define as the 'worst team'.  Worst team right now? if not worst team over what length of time.

-As of this moment, there is NO WAY they are worse than the Detroit Pistons. The pistons are 1-6 this year, and last year they were 14-68 (thats 28 'points' over an equal length 82 game season).

-In the NFL, the Panthers are worse by far. The Sabres, can, and Will go out on occasion and beat a top team like Dallas, or Florida. Carolina is clearly losing when they play any of the top 5-8 teams, no contest.

-And Baseball, where even good/great teams can lose 60+ games in a year and bad teams win 65-70 in a year, you have the Chicago White Sox. 41 wins. 121 losses. So no, the Sabres are no where near as bad.

 

Now, if you want to talk worst FRANCHISE overall, to me its clearly yes, they are the worst run/owned franchise since the day Pegula took over.  The team slid into the playoffs right after he bought in on a team/roster had had nothing to do with, but since his first full year owning the team 14 years in a row without playoffs.

Statistically I worked it out in a previous thread, but what are the odds of any team going 14 straight years without a single playoff appearance?  About 1 in 22,000.

Under Pegula:

-8 different coaching groups.

-Several changes in upper management (team president, business side, ect.)

-4 different GM's

-An arena that has fallen drastically behind all the other arenas in the league built in the same time frame

-Whenever things get really bad, he lets his GM/coaches/staff/players take the arrows and he is never around to face any tough questions

-From basically "will spend whatever is needed" and "no budget" to being one of the stingiest spending teams in the league.

-20 first round picks since he has been owner. 15 of them in the top 15. 10 of them in the top 10. 2 2nd overall, 2 first overall.

--Now, Statistically the odds may be about 1 in 22,000 that you miss the playoffs 14 years in a row under 'average' circumstances, but tell me just how much worse it is when you have all the above draft capital and you SILL miss it 14 years in a row?

-It appears he is less likely to fire someone when they perform badly, but more likely when he simply doesn't agree with them or he isn't 'comfortable' around them. Screw up all day but kiss his ring and you are fine.  Tell him "how things really are" and you are out of here.

So, there has never been a franchise in any major sport, now or ever, that has probably been run as poorly as Pegula has run this one since he took over it.  They have had experienced coaches, rookie coaches. Coaches who won cups before. Coaches who were the 'hot assistants'. Coaches where were former coaches of the year with this franchise he brought back (TWICE).  He's had a GM that had success with this team. 2 (at the time) respected GM candidates he hired from outside. Now Adams.

Pegula is the constant.  Every single player traded wasn't the wrong player. Every single coach fired wasn't an awful Coach. Every GM they moved on from was not the problem.  Pegula has been, and still is, the problem.  You can fire Ruff and Adams, but Pegula isn't going to bring in the BEST replacements, he is going to bring in who he is comfortable with. He'll bring in someone that makes him feel like he is heard. that will tell him what he wants to hear. Someone that will take the arrows for him when things go bad.  Again, Its Pegula.

So, I take it you didn’t get invited onto the Yacht cruise for Thanksgiving?   

Edited November 2 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

19 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Adams takes no accountability for the drought.  Boterill is long gone now.  Murray is literally out to pasture and out of hockey.  
 

There is one common denominator though.  

No one is disputing the fact that the owner's presence hovers over this flaccid franchise. However, our GM was definitely instrumental for dealing Mitts for Byram, and if I'm not mistaken was the GM who didn't sign Reinhart to an extension when he had the opportunity to do so. 

Edited November 2 by JohnC

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

No one is disputing the fact that the owner's presence hovers over this flaccid franchise. However, our GM was definitely instrumental for dealing Mitts for Byram, and if I'm not mistaken was the GM who didn't sign Reinhart to an extension when he had the opportunity to do so. 

[msw2112]

This same roster played lights-out and beat a great Dallas team less than two weeks ago.  Last night, they looked completely disjointed and fumbled their way to a loss against a lowly Islanders team.  How does the owner of the team factor into explaining this drastic difference in play by the SAME roster?

[JohnC]

9 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I'm sure you are aware that you could have used a more provocative picture of a sausage that would have drawn the ire of the people who monitor this site. 😀

[LGR4GM]

Pegula hasn't even given a press conference in like 4 years. He's just interested in playing gm and being non responsive to this dumpster fire.

[LTS]

28 minutes ago, JohnC said:

No one is disputing the fact that the owner's presence hovers over this flaccid franchise. However, our GM was definitely instrumental for dealing Mitts for Byram, and if I'm not mistaken was the GM who didn't sign Reinhart to an extension when he had the opportunity to do so. 

It's a fair question regarding Adams but I don't know that we can put everything on him. Given the repeated mind boggling moves this team has made over the entirety of the Pegula era it's hard to say that anyone in the GM seat can act unilaterally.

That said, it doesn't mean Adams isn't to blame at all either.

At this point I have no hope for this team as long as Pegula is the owner. I'm amazed any player willingly signs a long term deal here. I'm at a loss for words as to the game last night. I didn't have the energy to post about it last night at all.

There are no positives. They were playing a bad Isles team without Barzal and then who lost 2 of the 6 defense and could barely muster an effort. They are fumbling nearly every puck handling opportunity. Worst yet is that the people who maintain the ice quality at KBC appear to be putting in the same effort as the team that skates there. It's looks horrendous.

 

[Indabuff]

55 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

 

Under Pegula:

-8 different coaching groups.

-Several changes in upper management (team president, business side, ect.)

-4 different GM's

-An arena that has fallen drastically behind all the other arenas in the league built in the same time frame

-Whenever things get really bad, he lets his GM/coaches/staff/players take the arrows and he is never around to face any tough questions

-From basically "will spend whatever is needed" and "no budget" to being one of the stingiest spending teams in the league.

-20 first round picks since he has been owner. 15 of them in the top 15. 10 of them in the top 10. 4 of them top 2 overall, 2 first overall.

--Now, Statistically the odds may be about 1 in 22,000 that you miss the playoffs 14 years in a row under 'average' circumstances, but tell me just how much worse it is when you have all the above draft capital and you SILL miss it 14 years in a row?

-It appears he is less likely to fire someone when they perform badly, but more likely when he simply doesn't agree with them or he isn't 'comfortable' around them. Screw up all day but kiss his ring and you are fine.  Tell him "how things really are" and you are out of here.

 

So Pegula is basically the Sabres' slumlord.

Edited November 2 by Indabuff
One bourbon, one scotch, one beer

[JohnC]

25 minutes ago, LTS said:

It's a fair question regarding Adams but I don't know that we can put everything on him. Given the repeated mind boggling moves this team has made over the entirety of the Pegula era it's hard to say that anyone in the GM seat can act unilaterally.

That said, it doesn't mean Adams isn't to blame at all either.

At this point I have no hope for this team as long as Pegula is the owner. I'm amazed any player willingly signs a long term deal here. I'm at a loss for words as to the game last night. I didn't have the energy to post about it last night at all.

There are no positives. They were playing a bad Isles team without Barzal and then who lost 2 of the 6 defense and could barely muster an effort. They are fumbling nearly every puck handling opportunity. Worst yet is that the people who maintain the ice quality at KBC appear to be putting in the same effort as the team that skates there. It's looks horrendous.

 

I'm not putting the onus on KA for all the transactions that happened before him. That would be unfair. But what I can say is that the GM has been in his position long enough (at least four years) where this team should be better positioned for success. The GM had a plan to rebuild from scratch. That's the source of my angst with him. Although it was the right thing to do, he didn't have the creativity and flexibility to tweak it to accelerate the transition. As I said in prior posts, I don't understand his antipathy toward Mitts. The player's agent stated that the GM made no offers to him before being dealt for Byram. Are the Sabres made better in that exchange? I would say no. The Reinhart deal is even more perplexing, if not peculiar. The player was willing to sign an extension. The GM declined. So he ended up being a UFA and dealt for an imbalanced return. Reinhart was one of the best players on a Cup winning team. And in my estimation, he is an upper echelon player in the league. Are we better off not signing him when the opportunity existed? Definitely not. These are self-inflicted wounds that not only didn't make us better but set this franchise back, again, and again, and again. 

There is no question that our clueless owner has interfered with hockey decisions. I'm not sure that is the case now, at least to the extent that he did when he first bought the team. My hope is that he learned his lesson with the Bills allowing the football people to make the decisions. Compare the two organizations. The Bills are one of the best run football operations in the NFL, as indicated by their record over a sustained period of time. 

I'm not publicly lamenting to discourage others. We are where we are not because of any inherent obstacles but rather because of an accumulation of unwise decisions. Buffalo is an unattractive franchise for many players not because it is Buffalo per se. It is because of the deserved reputation of its historical ineptitude. 

I'm counting on Lindy to alter the lax attitude of the players and force them pay more attention to details. Especially, in this particular sport the difference between success and failure is miniscule. And if some of the players are not receptive to his coaching wisdom, they will be held accountable. Enough is enough! 

[Pimlach]

All I can say is that this particular game must have been really bad.  I missed it, but the reaction here says lot.  

The best players on this team, or should I say the highest paid "Core Group", needs to be better and much more consistent.  

It is nice to see the role player guys like Zucker, McLeod, Clifton, Greenway, and even Tuch helping the cause -  but we all know who the key players are and they all to often do not show up. 

I am talking about  the players that Adams is building around - and its not these guys listed above.  

 

Edited November 2 by Pimlach

[LGR4GM]

34 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

All I can say is that this particular game must have been really bad.  I missed it, but the reaction here says lot.  

The best players on this team, or should I say the highest paid "Core Group", needs to be better and much more consistent.  

It is nice to see the role player guys like Zucker, McLeod, Clifton, Greenway, and even Tuch helping the cause -  but we all know who the key players are and they all to often do not show up. 

I am talking about  the players that Adams is building around - and its not these guys listed above.  

 

Wtf did Tuch do last night? Barely noticed him. 

[Pimlach]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Wtf did Tuch do last night? Barely noticed him. 

I didn't watch.  My comments were based on the entire season so far, not one game.   

I don't list Tuch in Adams Core simply because he is still on his Vegas contract and Adams has not had to extend him beyond that.   Others may disagree since he was a key piece in the Eichel trade.  

The players he extended are Muel, Thompson, Dahlin, Power, Cozens, UPL.   One would assume these are his building blocks along with some of his prospects and Levi of course.  

[LTS]

56 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not putting the onus on KA for all the transactions that happened before him. That would be unfair. But what I can say is that the GM has been in his position long enough (at least four years) where this team should be better positioned for success. The GM had a plan to rebuild from scratch. That's the source of my angst with him. Although it was the right thing to do, he didn't have the creativity and flexibility to tweak it to accelerate the transition. As I said in prior posts, I don't understand his antipathy toward Mitts. The player's agent stated that the GM made no offers to him before being dealt for Byram. Are the Sabres made better in that exchange? I would say no. The Reinhart deal is even more perplexing, if not peculiar. The player was willing to sign an extension. The GM declined. So he ended up being a UFA and dealt for an imbalanced return. Reinhart was one of the best players on a Cup winning team. And in my estimation, he is an upper echelon player in the league. Are we better off not signing him when the opportunity existed? Definitely not. These are self-inflicted wounds that not only didn't make us better but set this franchise back, again, and again, and again. 

There is no question that our clueless owner has interfered with hockey decisions. I'm not sure that is the case now, at least to the extent that he did when he first bought the team. My hope is that he learned his lesson with the Bills allowing the football people to make the decisions. Compare the two organizations. The Bills are one of the best run football operations in the NFL, as indicated by their record over a sustained period of time. 

I'm not publicly lamenting to discourage others. We are where we are not because of any inherent obstacles but rather because of an accumulation of unwise decisions. Buffalo is an unattractive franchise for many players not because it is Buffalo per se. It is because of the deserved reputation of its historical ineptitude. 

I'm counting on Lindy to alter the lax attitude of the players and force them pay more attention to details. Especially, in this particular sport the difference between success and failure is miniscule. And if some of the players are not receptive to his coaching wisdom, they will be held accountable. Enough is enough! 

Thank you for this response. I realize my initial reply to you was not as clear as it should have been.  I am not blaming Adams for that which came before him. My intent was to say that I think Pegula still plays a heavy hand in what happens with this team. I don't think Adams acts unilaterally.  I am aligned with you on Adams. I don't tlike the Mitts trade either. Byram was not what the defense needed. I am guessing he's seen as the Jokiharju replacement next year, but that's not what the team needed last year or this year.

Each year I become more and more convinced that Pegula watched Major League one night and thought it would be interesting to try with the Sabres. Each year I am at more and more of a loss to believe someone can be so incredibly incompetent and that in reality what we are experiencing is some long game orchestration to move the team.

19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Wtf did Tuch do last night? Barely noticed him. 

He chased the puck like a dog chases a car.  He had an opportunity to drive the net but instead took a shot on goal as he loves to do. he... oh never mind. It's not going to be anything positive.

[Cascade Youth]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I live in the MD/DC area. What Washington has done since winning the Cup is steadily and smartly transitioned their roster from the aging Cup roster to its current younger and more competitive roster. Not every personnel decision has worked out over the past few years, which it never does for any organization. But in general, they have made more right decisions than wrong decisions. 

Our GM, who was hired out of the business side of the Pegula business, essentially let Mitts and Reinhart go when he had the ability to re-sign them. Ask yourself, looking back are we a better or worse team for those two decisions? While other franchises move forward, we continue to tread water. Mediocrity begets mediocrity. It starts at the top. 

I'm not in a state of despair and consider this a lost season, at least not right now. But what's most exasperating is that this franchise has imprisoned itself in the house of irrelevance by its own handcuffing. 

Adams is the Matt Millen of his era.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Cascade Youth said:

Adams is the Matt Millen of his era.

Matt Millen was a disaster. KA is basically mediocre. In the end what does it matter. Mediocrity begets mediocrity. Your record is your record. 

[Doohicksie]

18 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I would give this 10 thumbs down if allowable.  

I respect that.  I know cancer affects a lot of people and takes way too many lives.  I just don't like how it takes over the broadcast (or any other "theme" night that's not related to the game).

[Believer]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Wtf did Tuch do last night? Barely noticed him. 

Guy was invisible. Tuch did nothing all night long.

Believe Ruff was referring to Tuch among a few other veterans in his postgame comment about needing to play physical and win more battles “(Zucker) was in a lot more moments than a lot of our other players were…)

[LGR4GM]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I didn't watch.  My comments were based on the entire season so far, not one game.   

I don't list Tuch in Adams Core simply because he is still on his Vegas contract and Adams has not had to extend him beyond that.   Others may disagree since he was a key piece in the Eichel trade.  

The players he extended are Muel, Thompson, Dahlin, Power, Cozens, UPL.   One would assume these are his building blocks along with some of his prospects and Levi of course.  

Thompson is one of maybe 3 forwards showing up every night. Tuch isn't, and he should be. 

[Broken Ankles]

22 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Thompson is one of maybe 3 forwards showing up every night. Tuch isn't, and he should be. 

I’ll say 4 - JJP, Greenway and Zucker (surprisingly) bring their lunch pale each night as well as Tage.  But I agree overall with your point.  Just can’t win like that.  

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, Pimlach said:

He is a real good player to have on the team.  He will work hard in hopes that Adams trades him to a Cup contender at the deadline.  

Probably, and he should get a decent return. Especially if we eat salary, but he also gives Ruff something to highlight in game film sessions. "This is how you do it" type stuff for the slackers/kids.

[sabremike]

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

No one is disputing the fact that the owner's presence hovers over this flaccid franchise. However, our GM was definitely instrumental for dealing Mitts for Byram, and if I'm not mistaken was the GM who didn't sign Reinhart to an extension when he had the opportunity to do so. 

No, the last one is all on Botts who refused to sign him long term and gave him a "prove it" bridge deal. By the time Kevyn took over it was too late and he wanted out.

[JohnC]

19 hours ago, sabremike said:

No, the last one is all on Botts who refused to sign him long term and gave him a "prove it" bridge deal. By the time Kevyn took over it was too late and he wanted out.

OK, let's not assign blame for KA for the Reinhart situation. He's been the GM for, I believe, at least 4 yrs. He's the top person running the hockey operation. What's his record? Where is this team at now and what are its prospects in the near future? Eichel, Reinhart, ROR et al wanted out for the basic reason that they wanted to win and be with a serious team in the league. What happens when Dahlin and other gets to that WTF point and want out because they feel stuck on an irrelevant non-playoff team? The Sabres are mired in generational mediocrity not because of any inherent disadvantages that other franchises don't also have to contend with. It's the accumulation of bad decisions that has weighed this franchise down. 

This is not a lost season yet. But unless some sense of urgency is displayed by the players and organization is exhibited, the same cycle of failure will be repeated again. It gets tiresome. 

Edited November 3 by JohnC