Are we gonna acknowledge our Goalie issues?

[LGR4GM]

Buffalo currently sits in 30th for Goals Saved Above Expected, GSAx. To be honest, UPL, outside of maybe 2 games has been very leaky. I thought in the Florida game and in the Penguins game, he really let us down. Levi hasn't been much better although we haven't seen him much so hard to tell there. 

The Bruins finally collapsed as their goaltending couldn't keep them afloat (at least for now). We already missed the playoffs 2 years ago because of goalie issues. I personally don't think the defense has been terrible but it seems that every 2v1 or shot from the slot goes in these days. 

Edited October 31 by LGR4GM

[matter2003]

The Sabres have allowed far too many non-NHL quality goals this year and it's cost us a few games so far.  They better figure it out.  Hopefully UPL isn't one of those guys who got paid and now sits back and relaxes after playing for a new contract last year. Levi is still is the same...very inconsistent from one game to the next. He has a high ceiling but his floor is too low currently.

Edited October 31 by matter2003

[Doohicksie]

26 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Buffalo currently sits in 30th for Goals Saved Above Expected, GSAx. To be honest, UPL, outside of maybe 2 games has been very leaky. I thought in the Florida game and in the Penguins game, he really let us down. Levi hasn't been much better although we haven't seen him much so hard to tell there. 

The Bruins finally collapsed as their goaltending couldn't keep them afloat (at least for now). We already missed the playoffs 2 years ago because of goalie issues. I personally don't think the defense has been terrible but it seems that every 2v1 or shot from the slot goes in these days. 

If only we had a veteran like James Reimer* to stabilize our goalie situation.

 

 

* He's actually playing worse for the Ducks than our guys are doing.

[Jorcus]

Certainly the goaltending could be better. Listening to UPL during a postgame after one of the wins he did indicate that the more he plays the better he feels. I hope that is true. There is not much we can do about goaltending at this point and there are a number of teams around that wish they were in our position in net. He is adjusting to a different style of defense. It will be interesting to see if he adjusts to the Ruff system as he thrived in the post New Years Granato system. At least were not dealing with the 3 headed mess that we started with last year. I think we are in a better place.    

[JP51]

Especially with a team like this... we have goal tending issues... almost average goal play is not sending this team to the next level. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

There is certainly a goalie issue, but in their defense the defense has been terrible.  The 1st and 3rd goalies allowed in the Panthers game are clear examples for the issues with the defense.  
 

That said the Sabres are 3-2 when the goalies save 90% of the shot or better and in the two losses the Sabres offense failed to show early in the year. 

[Pimlach]

UPL still needs more games to get going.   He started to look better, until Florida on Monday where he was inconsistent again.   He should continue to get the majority of the games and hopefully he gets back on track.  
 

Levi should be in Rochester playing a lot.   They chose to waive Reimer, so now Levi needs to be patient and stay ready for his opportunities.  Not an ideal situation.   
 

I think this could be a good tandem someday.  Still being patient.  
 

 

Edited October 31 by Pimlach

[Idemo Buffalo]

UPL and Levi have played pretty well. Like I have posted a million times, if we win on Friday we will have won 4 of our last 5 games. If the power play wasn't so dismal to start the season we would probably be 6-4 with a solid 12 points. Not bad for a new coach and system. Give the goalies time to adjust.

 

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

UPL still needs more games to get going.   He started to look better, until Florida on Monday where he was inconsistent again.   He should continue to get the majority of the games and hopefully he gets back on track.  
 

Levi should be in Rochester playing a lot.   They chose to waive Reiner, so now Levi needs to be patient and stay ready for his opportunities.  Not an ideal situation.   
 

I think this could be a good tandem someday.  Still being patient.  
 

 

No.  This team NEEDS to make the playoffs.  Even if Reimer were in Buffalo, Levi gave/gives the Sabres a better chance to win games than Reimer would've.

Reimer doesn't get the win against FLA.  He doesn't get the win in the 2nd Joisey game.  Personally, don't believe he'd've gotten the win against the BJ's either; but Devon didn't come close to his A game that day, so maybe.  But, personally expect that had Reimer been the backup goalie the Sabres would be sitting with 7 points right now rather than 9.  And as we know from past experience those 2 points could make a world of difference come April.

The wildcard in the equation is would UPL be playing at his current level which is essentially the March-April version from last season if Reimer were up or would he get the "warm fuzzies" to have his Sally Field moment "the coaches like me, they REALLY like me" and play like the January-February UPL.  Don't honestly have an answer to that.  IF Reimer being here would've brought out THAT UPL (because there is no question who would be the starter today and a month from now in that situation), then yes, Levi should've been backstopping the Amerks to a really good run.  But if we'd still have the March-April version, then no, the Sabres need the extra points from the backup.

 

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, Taro T said:

No.  This team NEEDS to make the playoffs.  Even if Reimer were in Buffalo, Levi gave/gives the Sabres a better chance to win games than Reimer would've.

Reimer doesn't get the win against FLA.  He doesn't get the win in the 2nd Joisey game.  Personally, don't believe he'd've gotten the win against the BJ's either; but Devon didn't come close to his A game that day, so maybe.  But, personally expect that had Reimer been the backup goalie the Sabres would be sitting with 7 points right now rather than 9.  And as we know from past experience those 2 points could make a world of difference come April.

The wildcard in the equation is would UPL be playing at his current level which is essentially the March-April version from last season if Reimer were up or would he get the "warm fuzzies" to have his Sally Field moment "the coaches like me, they REALLY like me" and play like the January-February UPL.  Don't honestly have an answer to that.  IF Reimer being here would've brought out THAT UPL (because there is no question who would be the starter today and a month from now in that situation), then yes, Levi should've been backstopping the Amerks to a really good run.  But if we'd still have the March-April version, then no, the Sabres need the extra points from the backup.

 

Of course Levi is better than Reimer.    Adam’s picked up a goalie from the bargain bin once again, as usual.
 

And as you said, he did it despite the FACT they need to make the playoffs.  Hard to say how Reimer would have done in those 3 games, 0-3 is highly probable. 

They didn’t give Levi a very high challenge bar to make the team.  Now he is sitting on the bench, and destined to sit awhile longer too.  

Adam’s creates situations where he is forced to hand out NHL jobs and fat contracts to his players before they are ready.   Happens all the time.  

[thewookie1]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Of course Levi is better than Reimer.    Adam’s picked up a goalie from the bargain bin once again, as usual.
 

And as you said, he did it despite the FACT they need to make the playoffs.  Hard to say how Reimer would have done in those 3 games, 0-3 is highly probable. 

They didn’t give Levi a very high challenge bar to make the team.  Now he is sitting on the bench, and destined to sit awhile longer too.  

Adam’s creates situations where he is forced to hand out NHL jobs and fat contracts to his players before they are ready.   Happens all the time.  

3rd goalies will always be bargain bin guys. 

There are few, if any, vet goalies who were going to be willing to compete for a back up role with Levi. Levi did well enough last year to be given the opportunity to take the backup role. You sign a "higher end" backup and you effectively tell Levi that we don't care that you've worked hard and did well; you are trapped in Rochester. Not to mention if Levi wins the job even in that situation you either have to willingly downgrade or create serious strife with a vet goalie. 

[Night Train]

I would like to see more of Levi at present. Prior to the 1st goal in the last game, I thought UPL was moving slow and unable to locate the puck quite often. Opposition missed a lot of open nets. Yes D did play a large role but UPL seemed way off. 

[Pimlach]

36 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

3rd goalies will always be bargain bin guys. 

There are few, if any, vet goalies who were going to be willing to compete for a back up role with Levi. Levi did well enough last year to be given the opportunity to take the backup role. You sign a "higher end" backup and you effectively tell Levi that we don't care that you've worked hard and did well; you are trapped in Rochester. Not to mention if Levi wins the job even in that situation you either have to willingly downgrade or create serious strife with a vet goalie. 

 

Boo hoo for Levi.   Your wording “ we don’t care that you worked hard and did well, you are trapped in Rochester”  is not reality.   No one would say that.  No decent young player would think that either.   This isn’t Bantam youth hockey.  

This is where they lack the right leadership in the FO, they don’t challenge anybody to get better.   There is more coddling of the top prospects right now than at any time in Sabres history.  

In your scenario - If Levi wins the job in camp then you move on from the vet goalie.  It’s not hard.  Teams needed goalies to start the season. Having one is useful, not bad.  That is why Reimer got picked up.   All I’m saying is Reimer was not a legitimate challenge to keep Levi in Rochester for part of a season where he could play more and improve.  He was insurance for a training camp injury at best. 
 

This conversation is taking a turn away from the point.  Levi has to play to get better.  UPL has to play to get back to form.  That is the issue at hand.  
 

Since UPL is slightly more NHL proven, and he is getting paid, he gets the majority of the games.  Levi has to stay ready as a backup, which is a challenge , but his opportunity will come.  

Edited October 31 by Pimlach

[triumph_communes]

Give them time to warm up. Levi should’ve had the last game if things were based upon on ice results. 

[RochesterExpat]

Reimer has a better GSAx and GSAx/60 than either UPL or Levi. Not sure who that says more about.

[Taro T]

59 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Of course Levi is better than Reimer.    Adam’s picked up a goalie from the bargain bin once again, as usual.
 

And as you said, he did it despite the FACT they need to make the playoffs.  Hard to say how Reimer would have done in those 3 games, 0-3 is highly probable. 

They didn’t give Levi a very high challenge bar to make the team.  Now he is sitting on the bench, and destined to sit awhile longer too.  

Adam’s creates situations where he is forced to hand out NHL jobs and fat contracts to his players before they are ready.   Happens all the time.  

My bad.  Didn't realize your statement "Levi should be in Rochester playing a lot" was just a shouting at the sky lament.  Because, you agree the team needs to make the playoffs AND that Levi is better than Reimer.  That would seem to indicate that you agree that Levi is where he should be based upon the reality of what we have and not what we'd like/wish to have.

Seriously, the lament is cool; just the way you'd written it out, it seemed like you were saying they should've kept Reimer up and sent Levi down.  Which, with where this team is in its own history wasn't an actual option IMHO.

[Jorcus]

The only reason we have not seen more of Levi is the early season schedule has allowed us to play our number one goal tender more. Starting this weekend we are going to see a lot more of Levi because there are plenty of back to backs, 3 in 5, and even a 5 games in 9 days to start December. This is the stretch that will determine what we are. 

[jad1]

Haven't we been acknowledging our goaltending issues on a consistent basis for the last 4 years?

[DarthEbriate]

The Reimer signing was a perfect offseason signing to pair with UPL. Proven, veteran NHL-caliber backup who can give you .900 sv% and 20-40 games every year depending on the season. His numbers are solid and steady -- except for one tank season in SJ. It also allowed them to get Levi all the playing time in Rochester can continue to hone and mature his game (get him up to 100 professional games played; he was at 56 entering this season).

Instead, Levi won the competition for the Sabres lineup. (And I use the term competition in a GM Sheevyn voice -- "competition"  "Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational competition.") That's fine if he won the competition, but it's at the expense of him getting into a daily groove or growing his game. Instead of playing 2 of 3, he'll get 1 of 3.

Right now, the bigger issue is UPL. He's made some great saves, he's moved and read the play fine. But there have been at least 4 soft ones this season already. And the defense can't abandon him... like Dahlin leaving last season's PP-goals leader (27) Reinhart unmarked on the doorstep. 

[Pimlach]

38 minutes ago, Taro T said:

My bad.  Didn't realize your statement "Levi should be in Rochester playing a lot" was just a shouting at the sky lament.  Because, you agree the team needs to make the playoffs AND that Levi is better than Reimer.  That would seem to indicate that you agree that Levi is where he should be based upon the reality of what we have and not what we'd like/wish to have.

Seriously, the lament is cool; just the way you'd written it out, it seemed like you were saying they should've kept Reimer up and sent Levi down.  Which, with where this team is in its own history wasn't an actual option IMHO.

 

It has always looked to me that Adams wants Levi to be his #1 - as if he has to show something for his decision not to extend Reinhart, and then eventually trade him.  Levi was not adequately challenged for the backup role. He is better than Reimer, but is playing 3 out of 10 games good for him right now?  At the same time UPL will not get to last years level without being worked hard for awhile.  

[Stads]

No thank you

[PickaPecaPickles]

Maybe Adams can trade for the Jets' back up?  He's got a .915 save %.

[Idemo Buffalo]

 We have 14 games in November. Let's talk after November before making a judgement on our goalies. 

[JoeSchmoe]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Buffalo currently sits in 30th for Goals Saved Above Expected, GSAx. To be honest, UPL, outside of maybe 2 games has been very leaky. I thought in the Florida game and in the Penguins game, he really let us down. Levi hasn't been much better although we haven't seen him much so hard to tell there. 

The Bruins finally collapsed as their goaltending couldn't keep them afloat (at least for now). We already missed the playoffs 2 years ago because of goalie issues. I personally don't think the defense has been terrible but it seems that every 2v1 or shot from the slot goes in these days. 

I hear what you're saying but it's way too early. It's like a batter starting the MLB season batting over .500 or under .100. Eventually there's a regression to the mean. Not sure what that mean is with UPL yet (or Levi), but I think it's higher than what we're seeing now.

[Taro T]

34 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

 

It has always looked to me that Adams wants Levi to be his #1 - as if he has to show something for his decision not to extend Reinhart, and then eventually trade him.  Levi was not adequately challenged for the backup role. He is better than Reimer, but is playing 3 out of 10 games good for him right now?  At the same time UPL will not get to last years level without being worked hard for awhile.  

And the schedule lines up that way nearly every year.  The schedule is quite sparse in October and compresses significantly after Christmas.  (Apparently after Halloween this season.)  The league doesn't want to compete against the NFL (but can't really do much about that for 4 months) nor the WS (which they can and do alter their schedule around).  So, maybe @Brawndo's plan to keep Reimer up for the 1st couple of months and then flipping him and Levi makes sense; but again IMHO this team has too little room for error to have the 2nd best guy down in Ra-cha-cha while the 3rd best guy is dropping 2 points every 4th start.  AND in both of the past 2 seasons, after Levi got called up for real, UPL's play tailed off noticably.  (Was it because UPLs play tailed off that he got brought up, or (more likely in this kid's opinion) did his play tail off because he now had legit competition for the starter's job?)  If it was because Levi got called up and now UPL was no longer 100% the starter in his own mind; well, guess what very possibly happens again when Levi gets called up in December.  And Levi will be getting at least 1/2 the starts in that situation anyhow.

When all is said and done, Levi's likely going to get ~32-35 games which is a bit over 3 of every 8.

And, while this is a slightly tangential discussion, if UPL can't be his best self without playing at least 3 of every 4, he is NOT the goalie for THIS team.  They are too young to be playing in front of a sieve every 4th game just to keep the starter in a good space mentally.  (3 years from now, when they're actually a team with a standard age distribution, sure.  But not now.)  MHO, ymmv.

Edited October 31 by Taro T