Random complaint about TP

[seer775]

The Sabres have operated at a cumulative loss since 2011.

Still, the Sabres owner has seen an estimated 26% year-over-year increase in franchise value from 2020 to now totaling ~ $750M (per Forbes, the real value is likely over $1B since the Coyotes sold for about $1.2B last April).

This is despite a nearly 20% decrease in average fan attendance since 2017-2018 and the worst record by any team since 2010-2011.

Furthermore, the Bills have nearly quadrupled their net value since acquisition by yours truly in 2014.

With the Bills and Sabres net value skyrocketing, the question is, when will we find a way out of Kim and Terry Pegula?

[spndnchz]

Again? Asnutuem

[Cascade Youth]

I’m not one of those “careful what you wish for” posters but let’s be real, nobody is paying $1B+ for the Sabres unless they’re moving them to another city.

[Weave]

SDS does not approve of this thread title.

[That Aud Smell]

Man, I came here prepared for OT talk about 2-ply or 3-ply.

[Porous Five Hole]

8 hours ago, spndnchz said:

 Asnutuem

Bless you 🤧

[DarthEbriate]

9 hours ago, seer775 said:

With the Bills and Sabres net value skyrocketing, the question is, when will we find a way out of Kim and Terry Pegula?

They wouldn't sell until after the new Bills stadium is constructed. The valuation would be at its peak.

[That Aud Smell]

I said it in another thread: It's no wonder the Saudis want out of oil and into pro sports franchises. The ROI is bonkers.

Real-time edit: This website (see below) suggests that the Pegulas would have done just as well (or maybe even a little better?) if they'd indexed their $189MM in 2011. So ... that's something.

https://www.officialdata.org/us/stocks/s-p-500/2011?amount=189000000&endYear=2024

[Stoner]

Random? OK.

[Idemo Buffalo]

10 hours ago, seer775 said:

With the Bills and Sabres net value skyrocketing, the question is, when will we find a way out of Kim and Terry Pegula?

 

Yes, let's find a way out of the two people that saved Buffalo sports. They have won 4 AFC East Titles after a 17 year drought.  They also have the hockey team headed in the right direction. We win Friday and we are 4-1 in our last 5 games.  They are great owners. 

[Stoner]

35 minutes ago, Idemo Buffalo said:

 

Yes, let's find a way out of the two people that saved Buffalo sports. They have won 4 AFC East Titles after a 17 year drought.  They also have the hockey team headed in the right direction. We win Friday and we are 4-1 in our last 5 games.  They are great owners. 

You forgot. They saved the waterfront. Terry paid for Canalside, remember?

[Stoner]

Thanks, Idemo. I hope you don't mind that I lent you a hand.

We should probably also thank Terry for his near-lifelong commitment to improving the winter weather in Buffalo.

[Idemo Buffalo]

17 minutes ago, Stoner said:

You forgot. They saved the waterfront. Terry paid for Canalside, remember?

The Pegulas are great. People look at net worth and think they just have billions lying around. They don't. If they did they wouldn't be exploring the sale of a minority interest in the Bills. They likely are selling 25% of the Bills to help finance the new stadium. People whine about the state and county funding, but that funding barely covers what is going to be the overruns. The 1.4B cost is going to be north of 2B.  

Terry Pegula is 73. Kim in younger but her health is not very good, and unfortunately never will be again. The Bills are locked in Buffalo for another 30 years thanks to the Pegulas. As long as the Bills are in Buffalo, it is highly unlikely the Sabres ever leave too. They might sell a minority interest in the Sabres one day, but that team will be here for a long time. 

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Idemo Buffalo said:

 

Yes, let's find a way out of the two people that saved Buffalo sports. They have won 4 AFC East Titles after a 17 year drought.  They also have the hockey team headed in the right direction. We win Friday and we are 4-1 in our last 5 games.  They are great owners. 

I am genuinely curious how you will contort the sample games you quote as this season moves along.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the phrase is “very fine people “, innit, stoner?

Edited 2 hours ago by Weave

[Idemo Buffalo]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I am genuinely curious how you will contort the sample games you quote as this season moves along.

I am genuinely curious what you will complain about when the Sabres make the playoff this year.

[xzy89c1]

pretty solid argument the only reason sabres and bills are still in buffalo is TP. That said, he would sell sabres tomorrow, tonight even for that valuation.

[Pimlach]

26 minutes ago, Stoner said:

You forgot. They saved the waterfront. Terry paid for Canalside, remember?

I think the Canalside rumor comes from that fact he did build the Harbor Center, now LECOM Harbor Center, which is a really nice asset for Downtown Buffalo.  It brings in youth, high school, junior A, and college hockey.   Includes training facilities, rinks, restaurants, and hotels.  Lots of visitors really like it and, along with the other parts of downtown that are revitalized, it adds a positive to the city that was not there before.  

 

LECOM Harborcenter is an American mixed-use development in Buffalo, New York, developed by Pegula Sports and Entertainment. The building occupies a full 1.7 acre city block formerly known as the Webster Block, directly across from and connected to the KeyBank Center and Canalside.

[Weave]

16 minutes ago, Idemo Buffalo said:

I am genuinely curious what you will complain about when the Sabres make the playoff this year.

Not having a good way for me to watch them.

[Idemo Buffalo]

17 minutes ago, xzy89c1 said:

pretty solid argument the only reason sabres and bills are still in buffalo is TP. That said, he would sell sabres tomorrow, tonight even for that valuation.

He won't ever sell the Sabres. When he dies the family might, but he is 73 and he much rather have a hockey team than the 500M he would pocket selling the team and paying the taxes on the huge profit. 

I also saw the Bills released the TP "I'm a football guy, not just a hockey guy" video yesterday.  If you are defending whether you or not you are just a hockey guy, that means you are a hockey guy.  Clearly that is where his passion lies. 

[Mango]

35 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I think the Canalside rumor comes from that fact he did build the Harbor Center, now LECOM Harbor Center, which is a really nice asset for Downtown Buffalo.  It brings in youth, high school, junior A, and college hockey.   Includes training facilities, rinks, restaurants, and hotels.  Lots of visitors really like it and, along with the other parts of downtown that are revitalized, it adds a positive to the city that was not there before.  

 

LECOM Harborcenter is an American mixed-use development in Buffalo, New York, developed by Pegula Sports and Entertainment. The building occupies a full 1.7 acre city block formerly known as the Webster Block, directly across from and connected to the KeyBank Center and Canalside.

At the time the Harborcenter was being built and bargained I was friends with a lot of people involved in urban planning regionally and they said then that when the city brokered the deal for that land with Pegula that the city would never get that money back. 

Then this was published in 2022.

https://www.investigativepost.org/2022/09/12/harborcenter-fails-to-meet-its-jobs-goal/

Nearly $60M in tax credits and only hit employment goals once. And unlike you or I who will get hit with higher taxes for our homes overtime, Pegula will likely claim that the Harborcenter is depreciating YoY to avoid paying more taxes on it. Which is what just about all developers do. 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Mango

[Idemo Buffalo]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

I was friends with a lot of people involved in urban planning regionally and they said then that when the city brokered the deal for that land with Pegula that they would never get that money back. 

Then last year this was published.

https://www.investigativepost.org/2022/09/12/harborcenter-fails-to-meet-its-jobs-goal/

Nearly $60M in tax credits and only hit employment goals once. And unlike you or I who will get hit with higher taxes for our homes overtime, Pegula will likely claim that the Harborcenter is depreciating YoY to avoid paying more taxes on it. Which is what just about all developers do. 

 

 

The state of New York and Erie County, like all states and counties, give tax credits because it drives business. They get a nice return on the "tax credits" in the form of taxes on hotels, food, income, etc.  They don't give tax credits and lose money. I can assure you the Bills, Sabres, and any development in downtown are net winners for the city. Politicians, whether Republican or Democrat don't want their states/counties/cities to become ghost towns.  You watch how fast your property value drops and see how hard it is to sell your house when a county/city/state see their tax base collapse.

[Mango]

4 minutes ago, Idemo Buffalo said:

 

The state of New York and Erie County, like all states and counties, give tax credits because it drives business. They get a nice return on the "tax credits" in the form of taxes on hotels, food, income, etc.  They don't give tax credits and lose money. I can assure you the Bills, Sabres, and any development in downtown are net winners for the city. Politicians, whether Republican or Democrat don't want their states/counties/cities to become ghost towns.  You watch how fast your property value drops and see how hard it is to sell your house when a county/city/state see their tax base collapse.

Ummm. This actually happens all of the time all over the country. 

EDIT: Mathing this one out, at 205 rooms and ~$60M tax credit, each room would have to generate about $293K in tax revenue to get that money back. Current price per room is between $380 and $556. The hotel tax in Erie county is 5%. If every room gets booked at $556 on average, that is about $27.80 per day in hotel tax dollars. At that rate each room would need to be booked for 10,539 days straight (NEARLY 29 YEARS!) to get the $60M in tax breaks back. 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Mango

[Idemo Buffalo]

8 minutes ago, Mango said:

Ummm. This actually happens all of the time all over the country. 

Certain situations exist where they lose money, but not overall. The state of New York has an aging population, and younger people are not having enough children. Recipe for disaster. So they give tax credits to keep business and people there. If the Bills leave for Austin TX all the taxes and jobs for decades go with it. Then the city becomes viewed as a place to not invest money by anyone. Property values drop, businesses and workers flee, and the tax base disappears. Doesn't matter your politics, but Kathy Hochul understood this. Just look at what happened to Oakland, CA. 

[Stoner]

Idemo showing more cards...

[Stoner]

37 minutes ago, Idemo Buffalo said:

He won't ever sell the Sabres. When he dies the family might, but he is 73 and he much rather have a hockey team than the 500M he would pocket selling the team and paying the taxes on the huge profit. 

I also saw the Bills released the TP "I'm a football guy, not just a hockey guy" video yesterday.  If you are defending whether you or not you are just a hockey guy, that means you are a hockey guy.  Clearly that is where his passion lies. 

They released it yesterday? Again? Why?

Do you want to get the quote right? Why are you adding the word "just"?