The Sabres have a "2nd" line problem.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The Sabres are 3-1-1 in their last 5 and their 5 on 5 offense has come alive.  Nearly all the offense has come from TNT's line and McLeod's line.  Ruff has rewarded McLeod's "3rd" line with additional ice time and has been rewarded for that trust.

As of this post our goal leaders are TNT (5), McLeod (4), JJP (4), Tuch (3) and Greenway (2).  Our assists leaders are Tuch (6) and Zucker (5).  Notice what's missing?  How about the entire "2nd" line.  This isn't just a Cozens issue.  Cozens, Quinn, and Benson have played 21 games between and have generated a stat line of 0g - 3a and a -10.  Only injury fill-in Kulich has scored and he has 1g & 0a in 6 games.  

With Benson now hurt and Quinn likely headed to the pressbox, our former 2nd line is, for at least the next game, Cozens, Kulich and Krebs.    Who saw that coming during camp?

For this team to compete for a playoff spot, Cozens and Quinn must produce.  Asking McLeod, Zucker and Greenway to carry the load of depth scoring is asking to much.  Remember, Greenway has never had more than 12 goals in season across 7 NHL seasons and McLeod career high is 12 as well over 3 NHL seasons.  Zucker, 32, who has been a solid scorer through his career, has yet to score, but instead seems to be the playmaker for the line (5 assists), despite never really playing that role over 11 seasons.  The point being, the McLeod line hot streak is going to end at some point and we need someone else to step up and that has to be Cozens and Co.  

The question is how does Lindy get the line moving without f-ing up the chemistry of the TNT and McLeod lines?  With Krebs on the line, will Lindy finally try Cozens on the RW?  

[PerreaultForever]

Ideally trade prospects/picks for a rugged veteran winger who can score. Quinn can go sit in the press box until he earns a spot back. 

otherwise I would try Cozens on the wing with McLeod as 2C. Bump Quinn down to line 3 with Krebs at center. 

[SABRES 0311]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ideally trade prospects/picks for a rugged veteran winger who can score. Quinn can go sit in the press box until he earns a spot back. 

otherwise I would try Cozens on the wing with McLeod as 2C. Bump Quinn down to line 3 with Krebs at center. 

Agreed. Accountability often gets interpreted as punishment for making mistakes. It can/should be used as positive reinforcement. Other, lesser skilled, players are producing so they should take the minutes Cozens and Quinn would get.

[LGR4GM]

They have a 3rd line problem. McLeod, Zucker, Greenway is the 2nd line. 

I think Cozens breaks through today and I think Kulich will help him. Quinn though, looks like butt and needs a slap upside his head. 

Benson returning next week at full health is going to change that line though. 

Edit: if I were Buffalo, I'd be looking to find a team that I can package Rosen and a 2nd to for a middle 6 guy they want out to clear space. Issue is those deals don't happen until the new year. Maybe a team like San Jose or Montreal gets twitchy. 

You could also grab Yamamoto off waivers and try that for a hot second. 

Edited October 26 by LGR4GM

[mjd1001]

The Cozens line....

I think most of the solution is to 'wait'. 2/3 of the line will likely have its problems solved by 'waiting'

-Cozens...this is something we talk in the other thread, but its just a matter of waiting for him to score. 90% of his game is the same as it was even in his best year, if not better. He's getting chances. He's getting high quality chances. He is even getting time to take those chances.  His shooting percentage varies wildly from month-to-month and even half-season-to-half season.  THIS is what we have seen from him before. If the coaches and him have his game to where he is getting chances....you wait.

-Benson...He has played the whole season with a nagging injury. Let him rest and heal that, and when he does come back give him a game or two to 'get back' into playing shape. So with Benson....you wait.

-Quinn....I have ZERO idea because his play has been a problem. Few shots. Few quality shots. No great passes, no great play along the boards. Basically invisible on the ice.

Ultimately I think the solution to this line producing is MOSTLY something that is very anti-message board...and that is just sitting back and 'waiting' on Benson and Cozens. Benson to heal and Cozens to get out of his shooting slump by himself.  If anyone has any ideas on Quinn though, lets hear them.

Edited October 26 by mjd1001

[LGR4GM]

Quinn needs an exorcism. 

[pastajoe]

I wonder if Quinn’s Achilles injury may have permanently changed his skating ability. 

[Believer]

Appears Quinn is playing with no confidence.

He is on a line but not playing with his line.

When on the ice, Quinn is in his head.

Sit him.

He needs more rehab and maybe a sports psychologist who works with professional athletes.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

The Cozens line....

I think most of the solution is to 'wait'. 2/3 of the line will likely have its problems solve by 'waiting'

-Cozens...this is something we talk in the other thread, but its just a matter of waiting for him to score. 90% of his game is the same as it was even in his best year, if not better. He's getting chances. He's getting high quality chances. He is even getting time to take those chances.  His shooting percentage varies wildly from month-to-month and even half-season-to-half season.  THIS is what we have seen from him before. If the coaches and him have his game to where he is getting chances....you wait.

-Benson...He has played the whole season with a nagging injury. Let him rest and heal that, and when he does come back give him a game or two to 'get back' into playing shape. So with Benson....you wait.

-Quinn....I have ZERO idea because his play has been a problem. Few shots. Few quality shots. No great passes, no great play along the boards. Basically invisible on the ice.

Ultimately I think the solution to this line producing is MOSTLY something that is very anti-message board...and that is just sitting back and 'waiting' on Benson and Cozens. Benson to heal and Cozens to get out of his shooting slump by himself.  If anyone has any ideas on Quinn though, lets hear them.

I agree with you that exercising patience is the best approach to take with the Cozen's line. As you point out, the frustrated center is generating quality chances. He's pressing to hard and is missing the mark. As you and others have already pointed out, the fading Quinn is baffling. He's the young player that I thought would take an exponential leap this year. Something's off for a player of his talent to become an invisible and inconsequential player. So far, Kulich has by far outshined him. 

[mjd1001]

32 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

I wonder if Quinn’s Achilles injury may have permanently changed his skating ability. 

It makes sense on the surface and its a better explanation than anything else I've heard but still, it doesn't explain that he came back after it LAST year and played pretty well for 1/3 of a season:

-He scored in 4 of his first 7 games right after he came back last December

-Last year he had 9 goals in 27 games after coming back (a 27-28 goal pace per 82)

-Since he came back not only did he do that right away, but he's had another whole offseason to heal up beyond that.

When you DO look at his NHL edge numbers, he isn't skating as well. 2 years ago before the injury his top speed was 22.4mph, which is/was above average for the league. This year, his top speed is all the way down to 21.05, which is well below average for the league. HOWEVER, last year when he came back from the injury he was at 21.86.  So that leads to 2 questions, why is his top skating speed SO much below what it was 2 years ago...but more importantly, why is it so much below even LAST year, right after he came back from the injury? (random chance? not enough sample size yet?)

[ska-T Chitown]

38 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

I wonder if Quinn’s Achilles injury may have permanently changed his skating ability. 

He looked just fine last year when he came back. I think someone posted in another thread that his speed last year (via the thingy that tracks top speeds) was nearly the same when he came back last year.

Maybe Quinner was lurking on Sabrespace last spring, saw everyone telling him to bulk up and now, while prison swoll, is too heavy to skate properly? lol

[Jorcus]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ideally trade prospects/picks for a rugged veteran winger who can score. Quinn can go sit in the press box until he earns a spot back. 

otherwise I would try Cozens on the wing with McLeod as 2C. Bump Quinn down to line 3 with Krebs at center. 

 

There only 3 seats in the press box. Because the Sabres are pretty healthy right now bringing someone in for prospects does not seem like an option without moving a roster forward. They could try to get one of the D men through waivers but the injuries will come sooner or later.  Bumping Quinn down seems like the next move if he does not wake up. From there who knows. You would think being a contract year he would be ready to go. 

[LGR4GM]

For those wondering about ahl conditioning stints

 

 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, pastajoe said:

I wonder if Quinn’s Achilles injury may have permanently changed his skating ability. 

Personally, expect it's more of a case of Quinn still trying to figure out how to play in Ruff's system meaning he's thinking on the ice rather than simply playing.  He has a heck of a time even receiving a pass right now.  He didn't forget how to do that due to an achilles injury.

He still takes pretty good hits and is getting better at not getting knocked down by them, but he's not ending up with the puck on his stick at the end of them this year.  He was kind of Reinhart-esque in that regard the last couple of seasons.  Yeah, he'd get knocked down, but he still had the puck or he got it right back.

He probably also is down in confidence right now, just like his fulltime linemate.  When things aren't going well, you tend to expect them to continue not going well.

If everyone (or at least 13 out of the 14) is healthy, expect being in the pressbox for a couple of games would do him a world of good.  Getting to see exactly what it is Ruff wants him to be doing now that he's been trying it for 8 games.  

He seems to have a good hockey IQ, but a few years in a systemless system (remember, the Amerks tried to use the no set defensive system when he was there, just like Granato's Sabres were doing) combined with being a smidge undersized and a couple of fluke injuries seem to be causing him to think too much out on the ice.  Give him a couple of days to regroup and slide Peterka onto his and Cozens line when he comes back into the lineup and some of @LGR4GM's predictions for him won't seem quite as off as they seem just now.

[nfreeman]

I think @mjd1001 has it right -- this is going to work itself out.  Cozens IMHO has already started to look better, Quinn is too good and too determined to just fall off the table and disappear and Benson is going to get healthy.  For that matter, Kulich is a fast, relentless bull who is also going to keep coming.  It may take a little while, but they will start producing.

Also, I can't believe the OP didn't include a single Mittlestadt recrimination.  What is happening here?

[Archie Lee]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

They have a 3rd line problem. McLeod, Zucker, Greenway is the 2nd line. 

I think Cozens breaks through today and I think Kulich will help him. Quinn though, looks like butt and needs a slap upside his head. 

Benson returning next week at full health is going to change that line though. 

Edit: if I were Buffalo, I'd be looking to find a team that I can package Rosen and a 2nd to for a middle 6 guy they want out to clear space. Issue is those deals don't happen until the new year. Maybe a team like San Jose or Montreal gets twitchy. 

You could also grab Yamamoto off waivers and try that for a hot second. 

McLeod, Greenway, Zucker, so far, would fit in with the original group of Vegas misfits.  I agree that they have become the 2nd line for now.  It's early, but, as modest as their current point totals are, we likely shouldn't count on their overall production holding.  On a pts per game basis, McLeod and Greenway are on pace to have career years and Zucker to have his best year since 2017-18.  If they end up being our 2nd line for the season, we may eventually have a middle-six problem.

I think we are stuck with being patient. My hot-take though, going back to my off-season view, is that 2 of Kulich, Benson and Quinn could (should?) have been moved in the offseason in a package for a legit veteran top-six winger. It would have been a risky thing to do for sure, but had we done so we would still have one of them and all of our Rochester forward prospects and others to keep an eye on like Poltapov, Marjala, Richard, Miedema and Zeimer (and a veteran top-six winger).  As is, the field is so crowded that I think the collective value of our under age 24 players is tanking. 

Edited October 26 by Archie Lee

[Broken Ankles]

50 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Personally, expect it's more of a case of Quinn still trying to figure out how to play in Ruff's system meaning he's thinking on the ice rather than simply playing.  He has a heck of a time even receiving a pass right now.  He didn't forget how to do that due to an achilles injury.

He still takes pretty good hits and is getting better at not getting knocked down by them, but he's not ending up with the puck on his stick at the end of them this year.  He was kind of Reinhart-esque in that regard the last couple of seasons.  Yeah, he'd get knocked down, but he still had the puck or he got it right back.

He probably also is down in confidence right now, just like his fulltime linemate.  When things aren't going well, you tend to expect them to continue not going well.

If everyone (or at least 13 out of the 14) is healthy, expect being in the pressbox for a couple of games would do him a world of good.  Getting to see exactly what it is Ruff wants him to be doing now that he's been trying it for 8 games.  

He seems to have a good hockey IQ, but a few years in a systemless system (remember, the Amerks tried to use the no set defensive system when he was there, just like Granato's Sabres were doing) combined with being a smidge undersized and a couple of fluke injuries seem to be causing him to think too much out on the ice.  Give him a couple of days to regroup and slide Peterka onto his and Cozens line when he comes back into the lineup and some of @LGR4GM's predictions for him won't seem quite as off as they seem just now.

Questions for you. 
1. Are you worried that removing JJP from FL#1 would affect their scoring?  And that the expected bump to line #2 would not equal or surpass the decline to the top line?  
2. Who is the recommended replacement for JJP on the top line?  I think Greenway is playing great but can you have two lumbering forwards playing w/ Tage? 
3. Why not promote McLeod to 2C and play with JJP and Quinner?  Seems like Quinn would do well to play with more speed, not less.  And he still gets the benefit of a JJP reunion.  In other words, don’t you have to see if the problem is Cozens, not Quinn? 
 

[Carmel Corn]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ideally trade prospects/picks for a rugged veteran winger who can score. Quinn can go sit in the press box until he earns a spot back. 

otherwise I would try Cozens on the wing with McLeod as 2C. Bump Quinn down to line 3 with Krebs at center. 

I would like to see a rugged vet winger as well, but one who also plays with an edge.  I don’t think Zucker is the answer there, but rather somebody who can also bring some size, toughness and speed.  Not an easy commodity to find though.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

I would like to see a rugged vet winger as well, but one who also plays with an edge.  I don’t think Zucker is the answer there, but rather somebody who can also bring some size, toughness and speed.  Not an easy commodity to find though.

I agree but for now Zucker is looking better and better to me. He's not flashy and won't get us lots of goals at this stage in his career but he plays a responsible game and knows how to play properly. He should be a good influence on the younger players and I liked him up with Cozens if they are going to stick with Cozens as center. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

Personally, expect it's more of a case of Quinn still trying to figure out how to play in Ruff's system meaning he's thinking on the ice rather than simply playing.  He has a heck of a time even receiving a pass right now.  He didn't forget how to do that due to an achilles injury.

He still takes pretty good hits and is getting better at not getting knocked down by them, but he's not ending up with the puck on his stick at the end of them this year.  He was kind of Reinhart-esque in that regard the last couple of seasons.  Yeah, he'd get knocked down, but he still had the puck or he got it right back.

He probably also is down in confidence right now, just like his fulltime linemate.  When things aren't going well, you tend to expect them to continue not going well.

If everyone (or at least 13 out of the 14) is healthy, expect being in the pressbox for a couple of games would do him a world of good.  Getting to see exactly what it is Ruff wants him to be doing now that he's been trying it for 8 games.  

He seems to have a good hockey IQ, but a few years in a systemless system (remember, the Amerks tried to use the no set defensive system when he was there, just like Granato's Sabres were doing) combined with being a smidge undersized and a couple of fluke injuries seem to be causing him to think too much out on the ice.  Give him a couple of days to regroup and slide Peterka onto his and Cozens line when he comes back into the lineup and some of @LGR4GM's predictions for him won't seem quite as off as they seem just now.

I kind of expected at least one if not more of them to have trouble understanding how to play properly in a structured system. Quinn is that guy. This also applies to Cozens (although maybe not quite as much) and although I know he's hampered by injury I think it holds for Benson as well. Zucker up onto line 2 was a good move and should help them. 

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I kind of expected at least one if not more of them to have trouble understanding how to play properly in a structured system. Quinn is that guy. This also applies to Cozens (although maybe not quite as much) and although I know he's hampered by injury I think it holds for Benson as well. Zucker up onto line 2 was a good move and should help them. 

I don't think it applies to Benson at all. He understands and can play in the system just fine. 

[Cranky old man]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

They have a 3rd line problem. McLeod, Zucker, Greenway is the 2nd line. 

I think Cozens breaks through today and I think Kulich will help him. Quinn though, looks like butt and needs a slap upside his head. 

Benson returning next week at full health is going to change that line though. 

Edit: if I were Buffalo, I'd be looking to find a team that I can package Rosen and a 2nd to for a middle 6 guy they want out to clear space. Issue is those deals don't happen until the new year. Maybe a team like San Jose or Montreal gets twitchy. 

You could also grab Yamamoto off waivers and try that for a hot second. 

McLeod is and should be the second line center. In fact Kevyon betttter start putting together a contract offer in an effort to keep McLeod here. I don’t mean another 8 year contract—a bridge. It’s all we can afford anyway. His unwavering belief in the kids continues to not pay off. Samuelsson needs to be moved, while others still see potential. Cozens is the one who is our current head case. Put him on the wing and take off the pressure. By all means let Benson sit. It would be nice if these “4th liners” played more than 8 minutes. (Malensten) Let the bangers play Lindy. Grit has to be more than just a word. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think it applies to Benson at all. He understands and can play in the system just fine. 

Sample size is small but I saw hesitation in his game that wasn't there last year. That is what happens even with good players when they are being told to do something different to what they are used to and/or do instinctively. Sample size is small though for him and it might just be due to the injury.

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sample size is small but I saw hesitation in his game that wasn't there last year. That is what happens even with good players when they are being told to do something different to what they are used to and/or do instinctively. Sample size is small though for him and it might just be due to the injury.

Hopefully what we have now is the best case scenario for him.  1.) he gets rest to get healthy. 2.) he is still part of the team so he can watch the games, watch practice, and see and absorb what is different from what he did last year.  3.) the team is currently playing well while he is out so there is no need to rush him back, especially with Aube-Kubel likely to play soon.

Edited October 27 by mjd1001

[Taro T]

8 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

Questions for you. 
1. Are you worried that removing JJP from FL#1 would affect their scoring?  And that the expected bump to line #2 would not equal or surpass the decline to the top line?  
2. Who is the recommended replacement for JJP on the top line?  I think Greenway is playing great but can you have two lumbering forwards playing w/ Tage? 
3. Why not promote McLeod to 2C and play with JJP and Quinner?  Seems like Quinn would do well to play with more speed, not less.  And he still gets the benefit of a JJP reunion.  In other words, don’t you have to see if the problem is Cozens, not Quinn? 
 

1.  Worried, to a degree.  Anytime you change something that's working, there's always a concern that it won't come back.  But absolutely expect that the bump in both Quinn and Cozens would more than offset any decline in Thompson, Tuch, or Peterka.  Especially when we also get to add points from Benson from moving up a line.  Btw, Quinn's goal came with the Kid Line reconstituted.  Just sayin'.  (And, no, was not expecting them to be reunited to defend the 1 goal late lead.  Not the way this kid would've defended the late lead.)

2. Have stated it several times.  Would put Benson into that slot.  That's what swapping JJ for Zach means.

3.  Umm, because the idea is to get both Cozens and Quinn on track again and pulling Cozens out of that line doesn't really do that.  Again, as @mjd1001 has pointed out repeatedly, Cozens IS getting high danger chances.  He simply isn't burying them.  But really expect that should HE be the center that Peterka is sending a pass from tac to toe (like he did for Thompson tonight) that even he will find a way to bury that shot.  And after he gets 2 or 3 of those, he'll believe he CAN score again.  Again, have said personally believe a lot of his (and Quinn's) issues are having no confidence in his shot.  (And Quinn's issues are a bit deeper, but hopefully that EN goal moves some of those ghosts out of the attic.  And he really did play much better today than he had been playing.  He got a HD shot off.  And he could've had 2 others that were blocked on their way in.  Somebody here had said he hadn't had a single HD shot yet this season.  Baby steps.  He also had a couple of his get knocked down but make the right pass in spite of it plays today.  He was on track to being what he was last year today.)