Quinn Scratched…Who’s next?

[Pimlach]

8 minutes ago, Mr Peabody said:

Quinn, (along with the rest of us) has seen Stillman, Tuch, and Cozens stand up to getting knocked around.  Didn’t end well.  
 

The reason none of his teammates responded is they too wouldn’t fare well against Foligno.  That’s on KA, not the players.  Gilbert is as close as we’ve got to someone who could.  I feared we’d lose Clifton when he stood up to Gudas.

 

Don’t remember which recent game but saw Dahlin take a cheap shot to the arm /shoulder and nothing we could / did do about it.  I said before the beginning of last season that KA was trying to get these kids killed.

Clifton has fought Gudas before and he holds his own against him.   Clifton took on Anders Lee last year and held his own, and that was a very big size mismatch. 

Clifton is smaller and yet he can handle most middle weights.  We don't have a heavyweight guy, people say we don't need one.  

Greenway is big and strong but he does not really like to fight. 

Last year Tuch took on Brady Tkachuk and he survived it.  

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, LTS said:

I wouldn't expect him to fight Foligno.  I expected him to bounce right back up to his feet and at least shove him or respond. He did NOTHING but stare. And yes, the rest of the team did it as well.

It's not about fighting, it's about pushing back when you get pushed. If you get pushed and just take it, you are, in my eyes, being cowardly. You are afraid of the potential escalation. You can't play hockey that way. You have to be willing to get physical. Odds are good that if Quinn shoves back, a scrum ensues and no real fight breaks out. There might be a few roughing calls made.

 

Agree.  I would prefer that someone else jumped in first but we don't seem to have that kind of team.

This all gets back to roster construction and having a team that averages 24-25 years old every year.  

There are players on the roster hurting our playoff chances and the majority of them are young and homegrown players.  Too many with the same skill sets and no room for them to struggle while learning.  There is no margin for error and the depth is being tested.   

 

[Mr Peabody]

Tuch survived but if memory serves me right, didn’t he miss a game or two because of that?  Regardless, there is no deterrent to taking liberties against us.  When we played Ottawa this year things got chippy  at the end and Gilbert had a discussion with Brady.  Those things instill a “ safer workplace for the kids”. 

[inkman]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:17 AM, MISabresFan said:

I think Ruff has lost touch with the way the game is played today.  Look at the results.  The one win in the first 10 is my expectation.  He lost favor in NJ for a reason.

Or it could be the same players who sucked under previous coaches.  I have no idea if Lindy is currently a good coach. I can tell you that many of our current players are not suited for the NHL.  I’ll start with Rasmus Dahlin.  

[Pimlach]

5 minutes ago, Mr Peabody said:

Tuch survived but if memory serves me right, didn’t he miss a game or two because of that?  Regardless, there is no deterrent to taking liberties against us.  When we played Ottawa this year things got chippy  at the end and Gilbert had a discussion with Brady.  Those things instill a “ safer workplace for the kids”. 

Yes, Tuch hurt his hand.   Todays NHL - if you are going to punch a guy with his helmet and visor on you will hurt your hand. It WILL happen.  

Speaking of Gilbert.   As soon as Gilbert is on the ice for a goal against, or he takes a penalty, he is targeted by fans and apparently the coaches.  

The Sabres seem to like guys like Bryson more than guys like Gilbert.  If I were coach I would be the opposite.  We already have guys like Bryson on our defense but with much more skill.   

[ska-T Palmtown]

46 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The context is a bit different.  I consider this a late hit, after the whistle, and not a clean body check.   

The play ended, Quinn's momentum caried him to the goalie crease after the Minnesota goalie made the save.  Foligno came in a little bit late and knocked Quinn down hard after the whistle.   Quinn fell like a ton of bricks. No Sabre player did a thing.  Quinn slowly got up and skated away while Foligno looked menacing, waiting for someone, anyone, to respond.  No one did.  A ref stood right there and called nothing.  

I have seen Benson get called for less offensive hits at the whistle.   To me someone on the Sabres could have responded while Quinn was down, but they did nothing.  Just a push back and a sign of life would have been something.  

Balls, I musta been thinking about a different hit? I still don't think "a soft coward" is the correct label for a player on the receiving end of such a play - but I now strongly agree that the lack of response by the team is sadly telling. They are a bi-polar team in that regard ... there have been a few games this year where every sideways glance has been met with a slash, hack, or other nastiness ... and other games where "meh - better skate to the bench" was the answer.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Here kids, let me give you my take from 1985. Your feathered got ruffled if you're commenting on ppl given you the red x.

Y'all think the Sabres are soft when in truth they're young. That's blindingly obvious problem. 

Young does not equate to soft. Benson is in the top 5 or 6 of the team in terms of grit. Everyone can see that and the fact that that stands out so much exemplifies how soft the rest of them are. We simply should NOT be noticing Benson's grit as much as we do but it's all relative. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, ska-T Chitown said:

It's really just that calling a professional athlete that got knocked down by a good clean check a "soft coward" is peak pathetic internet keyboard warrior nonsense. Normally I enjoy your remarks, even if I disagree - but that comment was bleh.

BS. Your reply is what a "keyboard warrior" does. Attack the poster, not the post. You know you wouldn't do that face to face in real life. That's not what people do in real life unless they are trying to start fights.

It's not just that play. There's numerous times when he gives up the puck to avoid contact or he takes a long nothing shot or makes a weak pass to avoid it. Compare him to Benson, I dare you to consider that comparison as you watch a game. If you don't see the difference you just don't get hockey. 

The hit from Foligno I highlight because of how easily he went down, how nobody reacted, and how he just looked stunned and shocked like "hey, you can't do that to me" rather than giving anything back or even being just angry about it. It was weak. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I would not call him a coward for not wanting to fight Marcus Foligno.  He has no chance in that fight, Foligno is a monster.   All he is going to do is get injured for no reason.   Why no one else came in to answer, that is another story all together.  

Quinn needs to get physically stronger, he doesn't stay on his feet in scrums, and it does not look like he added any strength in the off season.  He just turned 23, he should be packing on some more weight and at 6'1" and 185 he has the framework to add muscle.  Physically, he very similar to Sam Reinhart.  Same height, and Quinn can add 10 to 12 pounds just like Reinhart did. 

People said the same things about Reinhart and look at him today at 29 years old and in his prime.  I am not saying Quinn can be as good as Reinhart, I am saying we threw these kids out there at 20 (Cozens, Quinn, Peterka) and they are still growing and learning at 22-23. They will all get stronger and better.  They will be better players at 25, probably for another team with the way things are going for this franchise.  

You can develop one or two good young players on a veteran team, but the Adams plan of no blockers called for a large group of kids to all come together at once, assumes no set backs in their game (straight line improvement),  and with very little veteran help.  I cant think of a team that successfully did this without having to retool the group at some point.  

 

Just to be clear I am not saying fight Foligno. I'm just saying get up and push back. As I've said in several other replies compare him to Benson. Small and young (younger) and yet he pushes back constantly. Initiates even. As far as I remember he hasn't had a single actual fight yet and he doesn't have to have one. He shouldn't at his size and age.   So in this instance 1) Quinn should see him coming and brace for the contact. It was at the end of a play and Foligno just stuck out a shoulder, he wasn't even moving fast. You can shoulder back on that or at least brace for it. 2) give him a good whack back as it happens or from the ground 3) get angry and create a scrum and go after one of their smaller guys (letting one of your bigger guys go after him). It's all part of hockey.

The highlighted line is most definitely true and it's what I said earlier in the year. He looks like a child. He looks like an 18 or 19 year old who you wonder if they are big and strong enough to be in the NHL or should they go back to junior and lift weights. He is still slight of frame and just a skinny kid. I don't ever remember Reinhart looking that slight as that age. First year he came in yes, but not at 23.  

[LGR4GM]

21 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Young does not equate to soft. Benson is in the top 5 or 6 of the team in terms of grit. Everyone can see that and the fact that that stands out so much exemplifies how soft the rest of them are. We simply should NOT be noticing Benson's grit as much as we do but it's all relative. 

You don't get it.  I said you couldn't articulate what I meant and here's more proof. 

It doesn't matter. I realize that this place is just a negativity void now. 

[Carmel Corn]

Once upon a time, so-called scorers in a slump would do other things to elevate their game until their offense got back on track.  Some might increase their physical play and/or defend more to bring another element to the team.  Unfortunately, I don’t see Quinn doing much of anything to show something different, other than to be invisible and ineffective…..in other words a liability.

[JP51]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Clifton has fought Gudas before and he holds his own against him.   Clifton took on Anders Lee last year and held his own, and that was a very big size mismatch. 

Clifton is smaller and yet he can handle most middle weights.  We don't have a heavyweight guy, people say we don't need one.  

Greenway is big and strong but he does not really like to fight. 

Last year Tuch took on Brady Tkachuk and he survived it.  

I agree with this... the fact of the matter is the team is not constructed of Hockey Players regardless of size... and when I say Hockey Play i mean people that do what it takes to play hockey and that includes giving and receiving contact and still being able to play the game. The absence of players who will hold others accountable and not just go get bludgeoned when it goes down... is a problem... you can see we fear other teams, contact and appropriately holding them accountable for liberties.. that is because those teams have several people that will pound you... whether its in a fight or during the course of a game... so they play timid.... because as a whole we have none of that... no one feels emboldened to be aggressive... conversely, no one on other teams feel scared to push us and press the aggression... they know there will be no price to pay... in fact this entire organization in the past 15 years you only need to watch Ryan Miller getting run over by Lucic to understand what this pathetic group of figure skaters has been about organizationally for the last two decades.  Our management doesn't seem to even have the basic understanding that this is the problem. In fact they have let this brand slip so horrifically that we are number 1 on everyone's no trade list... you cant even pay them to come here... they know it is a failing model and that they will get bludgeoned by real teams with real hockey players... 

[Getpucksdeep]

Good conversation in here.  On Quinn, I didn't notice the soft play last year.  Not that he showed grit, just maybe all the awesome skilled play masked its absence. And I agree that Foligno's hit was awkward, I see it the way you describe it @PerreaultForever  Like - that's it? You are standing in front of the crease, and you went down that easy? And now you are just sitting there?  No response?

Pretty sure Quinn's year with ROC he was over point per game, and then disappeared in playoffs (while Krebs went down and lit it up).  "He's gripping his stick too tight" was the primary narrative. Maybe it was the increased intensity instead?  Ugh.  Really see this guy as a key to the Sabres having success. Hopeful he works through it and can at least stand up for himself when needed - maybe like Reinhart or Pommers. Samson is as soft as they come (one of the reasons we sucked again in my opinion), but now he has the big D teammate mojo all around and it's not a problem.

[mjd1001]

I really see not much of anything positive from Quinn.

If he's not scoring, the best you can hope is he doesn't hurt in other areas. Does that mean I don't like him? No, it just is he's a guy I don't notice out there at all unless he is scoring. He's the guy on the team that you don't even see until a goal is scored, and then you look up and it was him.

If he's not scoring at least 20 goals a year for me (and hopefully more), he is of little use.

[ska-T Palmtown]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

BS. Your reply is what a "keyboard warrior" does. Attack the poster, not the post. You know you wouldn't do that face to face in real life. That's not what people do in real life unless they are trying to start fights.

It's not just that play. There's numerous times when he gives up the puck to avoid contact or he takes a long nothing shot or makes a weak pass to avoid it. Compare him to Benson, I dare you to consider that comparison as you watch a game. If you don't see the difference you just don't get hockey. 

The hit from Foligno I highlight because of how easily he went down, how nobody reacted, and how he just looked stunned and shocked like "hey, you can't do that to me" rather than giving anything back or even being just angry about it. It was weak. 

Crap - I actually meant to go back and delete my post since I was totally thinking of the wrong play. Pimlach set me straight. I think it was pretty weak that no one responded, although I may quibble with whether or not that should have been Quinn or not. (Agree with the bold)

I actually agree with you that I went a little "keyboard warrior-y" in my response, and I'll own up to that. I thought your post calling him a "coward" was kinda over the top, but in turn I also went over the top. The internet, amirite? I think it is easier to disagree in-person and in real time, honestly. We'd be at a bar, you'd say "Quinn is a coward", I'd say "aw, c'mon man - that's a bit harsh" you'd say "nah - he shoulda at least whacked him" and i'd say "meh, maybe?" and we'd move on. Probably sitting at home gives one way too much time to think of a response. 

It seemed like such a personal attack on Quinn's character versus his play, that it definitely elicited a strong reaction from me. Calling him a coward came across as attacking him, not his actions, and it seemed wrong to me.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

You don't get it.  I said you couldn't articulate what I meant and here's more proof. 

It doesn't matter. I realize that this place is just a negativity void now. 

Right Miss Positive. Maybe you can't articulate your own points. 

Colorado game just exemplified all of it again. Soft children playing against men. It's all on Pegula imo. 

[mjd1001]

We all know the issue with Cozens and Quinn.  The 2nd highest paid forward on your team and the young, up-and-coming scorer who would be his winger on your 2nd line.  We know how poorly they are playing and producing. But to put some numbers on it:

Over the last 2 seasons before this year....

-combined they scored 72 goals in 262 games.  That 'combo' production is equal to expecting 45 goals between them over a full 82 game season together. They collectively shot 12.3%

And they are both 'young' so you would expect them to keep getting BETTER than they have been.

This season though 25 games....

-combined scored 6 goals in 49 games. That combo production is equal to expecting 20 goals between them over a full 82 game season together. They are shooting collectively 5.4%. (yes, these are your 'top 10' draft pick forwards who are entering the prime of their career)

Those aren't 2nd line numbers. They are barely 3rd line numbers.  They are what you would put up with on a 4th line..... Oh wait, on your 4th line you would probably not even do that, as they are a combined -15 through those 25 games, an that pitiful production is with a pretty good amount of power play time, and they are both getting almost 60% offensive zone start times. Oh, and Cozens is getting almost 18 minutes of ice time per game and, until recently, Quinn was over 15 minutes per game.

So, their numbers and production are, quite frankly pitiful.  Put that in the context of the ice time the get, the power play time, and the offensive zone start percentages...and that 'combo' that you were expecting to be your 2nd line...those 2 together might be 2 of the most disappointing players in the entire league.

So here is my 'positive spin'.  All the things we are all complaining about today...Pegula, Adams, the defense, any other player......ALL of those things could be the same, but if Quinn and Cozens just weren't 'sucking' so much right now, this team could/would probably be a playoff team right now.

Edited December 4 by mjd1001

[DarthEbriate]

8 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

So here is my 'positive spin'.  All the things we are all complaining about today...Pegula, Adams, the defense, any other player......ALL of those things could be the same, but if Quinn and Cozens just weren't 'sucking' so much right now, this team could/would probably be a playoff team right now.

If they were producing like average 2nd liners and had about 15 points each right now, yes. The Sabres would probably be in 3rd place in their division. That's on the GM. (And on folks like me who saw Quinn's production in his first two seasons and thought... RW2, PP time all season...  that's a 50-point floor player, if healthy. And potentially your best combined shooter/playmaker on the roster.)

--------

In an alternate spin on the OP; what next? Scratch him again. Or maybe he needs a change of scenery before the GM locks him into a 7-year deal when all he has earned for next season is a bridge.

Alternate, if he improves a bit over the season, but never gives 2nd line production... And another GM makes him an RFA offer sheet -- do you just take the picks?

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

If they were producing like average 2nd liners and had about 15 points each right now, yes. The Sabres would probably be in 3rd place in their division. That's on the GM. (And on folks like me who saw Quinn's production in his first two seasons and thought... RW2, PP time all season...  that's a 50-point floor player, if healthy. And potentially your best combined shooter/playmaker on the roster.)

--------

In an alternate spin on the OP; what next? Scratch him again. Or maybe he needs a change of scenery before the GM locks him into a 7-year deal when all he has earned for next season is a bridge.

Alternate, if he improves a bit over the season, but never gives 2nd line production... And another GM makes him an RFA offer sheet -- do you just take the picks?

On Quinn, the turning point of the game last night was McKinnons goal just a couple minutes into the 2nd period to put Colorado on the board. From that point on the Sabres certainly played 'holding their sticks too tight'.

I watched the replay of that goal now from not just the broadcast angle, but a few different angles....

-I think Clifton was the D-man that tried to move the puck out of the zone when McKinnon got it, but at that moment, Quinn was the closest forward to McKinnon.  If you watch, the D-men were covering the front of the net (I'm good with that), Kulich was backchecking and taking the guy into the corner with the puck (good thing for a young guy to do), McLeod was covering the high slot on the other side of the ice (exactly where I want him), and Quinn was on the boards covering the area where McKinnon and the D-men were.

--next as the puck goes up the boards towards McKinnon Clifton comes out from in front of the net to help out with the puck (no problem with this) but Quinn takes off up the ice. The puck is still in the Sabres D-zone and there are 2 Sabres players with 3 Colorado players within 5-7  feet of the puck. Both Kulich and Clifton are now tied up on the boards...so Quinn is the ONLY player left on that part of the ice (near the puck) to cover both McKinnon and the D-man.  Quinn takes up off the ice and basically leaves McKinnon 100% uncovered. Without the winger (Quinn) there, McKinnon gets the puck, turns around and scores. 

As McKinnon took the shot, Quinn was the only Sabres player not in the Defensive zone, AND not only that but he wasn't even on the defensive side of the red line.

With a 4-0 lead, I think being the only guy who is available and free to cover Nate McKinnon when the puck is in your own zone is more important than trying to break out of the zone so you MIGHT be hit with a breakaway/stretch pass.

 

Oh, and the 2nd Colorado goal?  Cozens.  He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt with me.  I haven't seen an angle showing exactly what happend to him, but Tage hustled back and almost got back into the play. Cozens was off in the offensive zone corner, and instead of hustling back, he slowly skated toward the bench and made a line change right as the goal was being scored. He was caught VERY deep in the offensive zone when Colorado got the puck and could not, or would not, (or both) get back into the play.

I even think he got off the ice a second before the goal was scored and Tuch just stepped foot on the ice, so Tuch got the 'minus' on that goal and Cozens didn't.

Again, I can't find a replay of that entire goal from multiple angles, but it doesn't look good for Cozens there either.

After watching the replays and the goal visualizations of the first 2 colorado goals...the 2 goals most important in leading their comeback....if I had to pinpoint the forwards who were the most out of position, the forwards who made the worst plays on both of those goas......Quinn, and Cozens.

Those 2 hurt this team in so many ways.  Honestly the Sabres would be better off with 2 guys who make under $3m per year have a ceiling of 10-12 goas a year but play an honest defensive game.  This team would have a better chance of making the playoffs with 2 guys like that replacing Quinn and Cozens.

Edited December 4 by mjd1001

[steveoat87]

I remember Quinn looking very scared during the third period.  He looked like he was trying to duck for cover.  He should not be on this team -- not NHL ready.

[JP51]

4 minutes ago, steveoat87 said:

I remember Quinn looking very scared during the third period.  He looked like he was trying to duck for cover.  He should not be on this team -- not NHL ready.

He needs to earn his ice time... he can start by carrying sticks for the team

[LTS]

1 hour ago, JP51 said:

He needs to earn his ice time... he can start by carrying sticks for the team

I dunno, that doesn't get him on the ice.  Now, driving the zamboni or repainting the lines would at least get him on the ice.

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

On Quinn, the turning point of the game last night was McKinnons goal just a couple minutes into the 2nd period to put Colorado on the board. From that point on the Sabres certainly played 'holding their sticks too tight'.

I watched the replay of that goal now from not just the broadcast angle, but a few different angles....

-I think Clifton was the D-man that tried to move the puck out of the zone when McKinnon got it, but at that moment, Quinn was the closest forward to McKinnon.  If you watch, the D-men were covering the front of the net (I'm good with that), Kulich was backchecking and taking the guy into the corner with the puck (good thing for a young guy to do), McLeod was covering the high slot on the other side of the ice (exactly where I want him), and Quinn was on the boards covering the area where McKinnon and the D-men were.

--next as the puck goes up the boards towards McKinnon Clifton comes out from in front of the net to help out with the puck (no problem with this) but Quinn takes off up the ice. The puck is still in the Sabres D-zone and there are 2 Sabres players with 3 Colorado players within 5-7  feet of the puck. Both Kulich and Clifton are now tied up on the boards...so Quinn is the ONLY player left on that part of the ice (near the puck) to cover both McKinnon and the D-man.  Quinn takes up off the ice and basically leaves McKinnon 100% uncovered. Without the winger (Quinn) there, McKinnon gets the puck, turns around and scores. 

As McKinnon took the shot, Quinn was the only Sabres player not in the Defensive zone, AND not only that but he wasn't even on the defensive side of the red line.

With a 4-0 lead, I think being the only guy who is available and free to cover Nate McKinnon when the puck is in your own zone is more important than trying to break out of the zone so you MIGHT be hit with a breakaway/stretch pass.

 

Oh, and the 2nd Colorado goal?  Cozens.  He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt with me.  I haven't seen an angle showing exactly what happend to him, but Tage hustled back and almost got back into the play. Cozens was off in the offensive zone corner, and instead of hustling back, he slowly skated toward the bench and made a line change right as the goal was being scored. He was caught VERY deep in the offensive zone when Colorado got the puck and could not, or would not, (or both) get back into the play.

I even think he got off the ice a second before the goal was scored and Tuch just stepped foot on the ice, so Tuch got the 'minus' on that goal and Cozens didn't.

Again, I can't find a replay of that entire goal from multiple angles, but it doesn't look good for Cozens there either.

After watching the replays and the goal visualizations of the first 2 colorado goals...the 2 goals most important in leading their comeback....if I had to pinpoint the forwards who were the most out of position, the forwards who made the worst plays on both of those goas......Quinn, and Cozens.

Those 2 hurt this team in so many ways.  Honestly the Sabres would be better off with 2 guys who make under $3m per year have a ceiling of 10-12 goas a year but play an honest defensive game.  This team would have a better chance of making the playoffs with 2 guys like that replacing Quinn and Cozens.

Had seats in a different location last night, so had a different view of the game.  Between them, at the "shoot twice" end, Cozens and Quinn had at least 5 passes that missed their mark by a good 10' and ended up back (harmlessly, thankfully) by UPL.  

How much different would this season look if Adams had been able to land Kane or one other top 6 veteran so that even with Greenway and Lafferty out of the lineup they'd be able to bench Quinn &/or Cozens without force feeding ice time to Kulich, Kozak, & Rosen?

Still believe they MAY be able to recover from that loss.  But this is a true low point.  Hoping it's THE low point but wouldn't have money on it, especially if Dahlin is either out or playing like he did the 1st 2 weeks of the season.

[thewookie1]

I'd love to sit down Cozens and show him clips from his first couple years and ask him honestly where that kid went? Where did that rough and tumble Yukon boy go who stood off to the side in Hamilton after fighting Michael Bunting and running Matthews? Where did the young man go that all but shut down Matthews and McDavid go in back to back games? And can we find that guy again.

[EM88]

Some posts on this very board have allowed me to look at the game a different way.  Instead of just looking at the stats and following the puck like most fans, including myself, usually do.

I am starting to see what many are talking about with regard to Cozens and Quinn. But especially Cozens.  He is woeful without the puck.  As others have said before me, he appears to play a form of backyard pond hockey, chasing the puck, while his other teammates on the ice appear to be playing positionally.  Tage Thompson, Alex Tuch, Peyton Krebs, Ryan Mcleod, among forwards all have made bad plays, but they are Patrice Bergeon-like compared to Cozens.  

I was at one game this year and focused on him, and have taken the cue of some posters on this board and watched replays not focusing on the puck but focusing on where players are and what they are doing.  I cannot fathom how Cozens plays the game at times, how he is so out of position, and how most other players on the team seem to be following a set style or respond to coaching. Yet Cozens is continued to be allowed his ice time when in so many areas, he makes so many obvious mistakes. This entire year I think he is a negative to this team. Had he not played a single minute of ice time they would be better.